Why do people insist AA is not religious?/Efficacy of AA & other treatment programs

[WanderingSkeptic]

I must confess I've never found any hint of the AA being religious in any way. Whenever my car breaks down, I call, they come and fix it ... no problem ... no religion (unless of course you count the "Oh my God you really fixed it" moment ... er what .. sorry ... oh, you are not taking about that AA !!!

 

[Manopolus]

I must confess I've never found any hint of the AA being religious in any way. Whenever my car breaks down, I call, they come and fix it ... no problem ... no religion (unless of course you count the "Oh my God you really fixed it" moment ... er what .. sorry ... oh, you are not taking about that AA !!!

I thought that was AAA?

 

[AlBell]

How can NOT thinking rationally bring understanding ?

Alcoholics and rational thinking, seldom do they meet. Certainly alcoholics consider themselves rational thinkers. At some point down the path their rational thinking has trouble relating to the episodes of spousal and child abuse, the DUIs, the job performance decline, and all the joys of alcoholism.

Should such an individual seek a lifeline, AA offers one even to atheists.

I'm addressing that group, not clear thinkers like you who have no substance abuse problem.

Force of will can stop the first drink, but in an alcoholic that will by itself becomes less and less effective after 2, 3 or whatever. AA has a phrase to describe it, the "Gritted teeth, nope, I won't take the first one."; dry drunk. Family, friends, and the individual himself may decide continuing to drink is no worse.

Do you even know what "word salad" means ?

Sure. I suspect you think I provided more above.

Libet's work implies you are wrong about the, shall we call it "subconscious", mind being less powerful than the conscious mind. The subconscious is apparently where decisions are actually made. I'd call that ones' "higher power", and good choice to petition for help that the conscious mind is not providing an alcoholic atheist.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Volunteered at a street magazine, three hours a week, for three quarters of a year. Buy the magazine every month. Donate money to groups that help prostitutes, the homeless and drug addicts.

Fantastic!
At least one here has more than hot air.

Appeal to authority, okay.

Who else should I defer to? Anonymous internet posters with an axe to grind?
Like I said, for the time being - I'm comfortable with it.

Don't fall off your high horse AA Alfie, this is an internet forum, but if you want to pump up your ego, go right ahead.

Nothing to do with ego - a lot to do with truth and honesty and backing words with actions.

So to you DD and the others. Apart from trying to pull down one desperately needed source of comfort for the suffering, what do you do?

 

[Gandalfs Beard]

AAAlfie, How is getting someone to admit that AA is a religious support group bringing anyone down?

If an OPENLY religious support group for alcoholics helps a few of the religiously inclined, I have no problem with it. And I'm not knocking those who genuinely feel helped.

It's the disingenuous denials that the 12 Steps are religious tenets and that AA is at it's core a Christian organization, and it's insinuation into the Judicial and Medical systems (in the US) that causes the problems.

GB

 

[Belz...]

Nice try, no cigar.

Nice try what ? You seem to be under some mistaken impression that you can avoid what I say by saying I avoid what you say. I don't find such tactics impressive.

The question was (and remains) "what religion is being taught" when all these differing beliefs (and non-beliefs) can come happily together under one roof?

And the answer was : "Because religious people tend to see more in common with other woo-woos than they do with those who don't believe. Look at the muslims for instance. Some passages in their books tell them to hate Jews and other non-mulsims, but to simply kill the atheists on sight. "

Christianity is being taught, but when given a choice, believers will stick with believers, even from other faiths, rather than stick with the evil atheists.

 

[Belz...]

Should such an individual seek a lifeline, AA offers one even to atheists.

Not from what I've read in this thread.

I'm addressing that group, not clear thinkers like you who have no substance abuse problem.

Well I'm sorry, but I'm not going away.

 

[WanderingSkeptic]

I thought that was AAA?

Yes in the US ... but over here in the UK, its just the AA

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Nice try what ? You seem to be under some mistaken impression that you can avoid what I say by saying I avoid what you say. I don't find such tactics impressive.

And the answer was : "Because religious people tend to see more in common with other woo-woos than they do with those who don't believe. Look at the muslims for instance. Some passages in their books tell them to hate Jews and other non-mulsims, but to simply kill the atheists on sight. "

Christianity is being taught, but when given a choice, believers will stick with believers, even from other faiths, rather than stick with the evil atheists.

Yep, the last bit you added was an attempt to answer, the rest (in your first post) was all straw; so still no prize for you in spite of your foot stamping.

But you haven't told me how all those non theists fit in quite comfortably with all the other "woo-woos". How do they accept and reconcile these supposed christian teachings you speak of?

The answer is simple, they don't have to because it is not an factor if they don't wish it to be. Spirituality, religion or non is a choice.

Sobriety gets taught, not religion.

Not from what I've read in this thread.

Then you must have missed this:

Tradtion three:
The only requirement for sobriety is a desire to stop drinking. And

the 12 steps are "suggested".

Nothing is compulsory, everything is the choice of the individual.

 

[Pombolo]

It may be useful now to compare AA Alfie's tone at the start of this thread, to his tone now. I've read through pages and pages of this long thread, and it has sounded from the beginning, Alfie, like you have been assuming people are attacking AA in a general way, rather than simply commenting on the spiritual assumptions many AA groups make. The longer one stabs at phantasms, the more convincing they become.

Sobriety gets taught, not religion.

This is being a bit silly, don't you think? Religious overtones are often the means by which the sobriety is taught. Splitting them apart as different end-results is a bit duplicitous.

On the contary, anything can be ones higher power;

This is the one that I hear most often. It's flim flam of course:

STEP 3: Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to our Higher power (as I understood it).

This necessarily means something with the capacity to comprehend the will and lives of sentient beings. This is the kind of double think proponents of AA will indulge in: 'Any higher power will do... until you get to the next steps'

STEP 5: Admitting to our Higher Power, to ourselves and another human beings the exact nature of wrongs.

Again, how can one admit to something that does not possess the capacity to understand admissions? The higher power can be anything apparently... as long as it thinks.

Steps 6 and 7 also make assumptions of cognisance on behalf of the higher power, and to a much lesser extent steps 11 and 12.

People will react to being patronised - that does not mean they are attacking everything AA is trying to do. Just stop claiming that a higher power can be anything, when you know damn well that subsequent steps define that possibility away.

(PLEASE NOTE: This was edited before I saw Alfie's reply - the final sentence was reworded before I saw that Alfie has responded to it.)

 

[Hallo Alfie]

People will react to being patronised - that does not mean they are attacking everything AA is trying to do. Just stop claiming that a higher power can be anything, when you know damn well that subsequent steps prevent that.

How do they prevent it?
How if it is a god of ones own understanding.
Why can't this be anything anyone wants?
And why does the individual have to do that/those steps when they are only suggestion?


When people say AA is "dangerous" and make up lies, I do actually think they are attacking AA. What would you think they are doing?

 

[Pombolo]

How do they prevent it?

I've literally JUST explained why.

How if it is a god of ones own understanding.

Because as you just said... it's a god. That is what many don't believe in. Appending it with "of your own understanding" is just patronising in the extreme.

Why can't this be anything anyone wants?

I already gave two examples.

And why does the individual have to do that/those steps when they are only suggestion?

In your group perhaps. The point remains that the crap about 'higher power' is used to mean "anything" one moment, then is used to necessarily imply a cognisant force the next moment.

When people say AA is "dangerous" and make up lies, I do actually think they are attacking AA. What would you think they are doing?

I explicitly said "People will react to being patronised"... that does not mean they are attacking AA. What other people are doing is their own responsibility - react to them however you wish

I get the sense that you don't read conflicting viewpoints very closely any more (the above-mentioned questions I had already answered) and are in a 'Me and Them' mentality. Am I wrong?

 

[Dancing David]

Fantastic!
At least one here has more than hot air.



Who else should I defer to? Anonymous internet posters with an axe to grind?

Excuse me AA alfie, you are being a ----. there is no data to support the disease model of alcoholism, for the two reasopns I stated, it does not meet any defintion of disease.
(There are alcoholics who are not biologically predisposed, there are alcoholics that do not have withdrawal symptoms.)

So define disease and see how it matches. No one told you to grind an ax, you did that on your own.

Like I said, for the time being - I'm comfortable with it.

That is not the issue, many people can be comfortable with many things, and they still are incorrect. So define disease and how that disease is different from a mental disorder (your own words) and then show how alcoholism is a disease, not a mental disorder.

Nothing to do with ego - a lot to do with truth and honesty and backing words with actions.

Then stop bragging on how important you are, that is what makes you such a braggart and your words as empty as any preacher.

So to you DD and the others. Apart from trying to pull down one desperately needed source of comfort for the suffering, what do you do?

You are a ----, where did I pull down AA ? AA Alfie, maybe you should go chill out and come back and read for comprehension.

I have done my time, my work history is explained many places on this Forum. (I just happen to chose to work in schools now.)

Why don't you care about 13 million children dying from preventable causes every years?
What are you doing about it?
Why don't you care about domestic violence and the people whose lives are ruined by it every year?
What are you doing about it?
Why don't care about insert cause and problem here?
What are you doing about it?

You have drifted far from the topic AA Alfie and you have mistaken your ego for the discussion.

 

[Darat]

Folks - lets get back to the topic of the thread and drop the personalisation of the arguments and discussion.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Hmmm.

My main objections to many of the comments of others (outright lies are not included) are the broad brush strokes many have applied to the entire movement of AA.

I have repeatedly said that AA in Australia is not religious, we could care less what one believes. That is the way our groups run. That said, there is a spirutual aspect that can be utlised if one wishes.

Most of us believe there is an inherent difference between spirituality and religion (which there is - in broad terms, one is a strict set of faith-type beliefs, teachings etc. the other a sense of self and meaning to life).

I have also conceded that I do not know how they operate in the states, however the steps and traditions leave things completely open to the interpretation of the individual. So if you don't like it, no-one should care. If someone in an AA group does, find another group, start one yourself, do anything; there are no rules.

I also know that there are zealots here and there who will shove there beliefs down your throat given half a chance; there are human beings involved.

Religion in the states, seems to be a highly divisive subject drawing plenty of fruit loops from either side. That is too bad, they both do a disservice to AA as a whole.

Those here who believe it to be religious, fine. I don't really mind, but you are mistaken, and I would suggest this is simply a knee-jerk reaction to an inherent hatred of anything religious. Just a sniff will set some off, as I say - it seems a very divisive topic in some countries.

Sure AA has some roots in christianity, so what. It doesn't teach christianity, Christ is never mentioned. God is, sure (remember its roots?), again, so what? Believe what you want, many of us simply prefer the term higher power and this doesn't have to be something floating in the ether. It is a god of your understanding in whatever form you choose (or not) to use. For many, the higher power is simply the fellowship or nature.
I know many of you have trouble getting your heads around this and that's just too bad - it's not your life, sanity, job whatever that is on the line. When it is, perhaps you will be given the gift of desperation.

The sole purpose for AA is to give relief to the suffering alcoholic and - by extension - those around them.

I apologise if anyone took my passion for a sober life as AA zealotry. I do cherish my sobrity, AA helped save my life and there is no doubt about that in my mind. But as my life has been saved, I have had the unfortunate task to bury many, many others. If I seem defensive when AA is attacked, it is because I do see the great good that is done by the people in the fellowship of AA, they have no other motive except to stay sober and help others to get and stay sober (with the usual disclaimer about certain individuals).

I am an agnostic and frankly, I think it a bit rich for people to suggest I am anything but. Same for the atheists among us, same for others who follow other religions and/or beliefs. To suggest anything else is going on (especially by those with little or zero first hand knowledge) is arguing from ignorance.

AA can be religious - if you want it to be.
AA can be spiritual - if you want it to be.
AA can be all about sobrity - and that's how it should be.

 

[Belz...]

Yep, the last bit you added was an attempt to answer, the rest (in your first post) was all straw; so still no prize for you in spite of your foot stamping.

It's not my fault if you didn't connect the first part to your question in the first place and I had to breast-feed you the solution.

But you haven't told me how all those non theists fit in quite comfortably with all the other "woo-woos". How do they accept and reconcile these supposed christian teachings you speak of?

I don't need to. From what I've read here and heard elsewhere they don't fit in at all.

Then you must have missed this:

Tradtion three:
The only requirement for sobriety is a desire to stop drinking. And

the 12 steps are "suggested".

Nothing is compulsory, everything is the choice of the individual.

Yes. Just like we have "free will" but must choose to follow Jesus or else we're sent to hell forever. I'm quite aware of what "choice" means to a Christian.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

It's not my fault if you didn't connect the first part to your question in the first place and I had to breast-feed you the solution.

Hmmm. Interesting - you explain youself spectacularly poorly, and that's my fault.

I don't need to. From what I've read here and heard elsewhere they don't fit in at all.

Then you are mistaken - and continue to speak from ignorance. I know hundreds of examples personally - I'm one of them. How do they not fit in when there is no requirement to accept god in any way unless one wishes?

Yes. Just like we have "free will" but must choose to follow Jesus or else we're sent to hell forever. I'm quite aware of what "choice" means to a Christian.

Where is Jesus mentioned anywhere in AA as a means to recovery? For some Christian individuals sure, but where in AA?
You continue to apply your own (mis)judgements and values on the words of others without first hand experience. Some call that contempt prior to investigation.

 

[Belz...]

Hmmm. Interesting - you explain youself spectacularly poorly, and that's my fault.

Whatever helps you feel superfior, Alfie.

Then you are mistaken - and continue to speak from ignorance. I know hundreds of examples personally - I'm one of them. How do they not fit in when there is no requirement to accept god in any way unless one wishes?

If I may ask, what was YOUR higher power ?

Where is Jesus mentioned anywhere in AA as a means to recovery? For some Christian individuals sure, but where in AA?

Now that was your misunderstanding, not my spectacularily poor expression skills.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

If I may ask, what was YOUR higher power ?

Sure, the fellowship or the group of AA; the people. Worked great for me.

Now that was your misunderstanding, not my spectacularily poor expression skills.

Fair enough.
But once again incorrectly, you are suggesting that AA members have no choice. That it just patently wrong.

 

[tsig]

Sure, the fellowship or the group of AA; the people. Worked great for me.




Fair enough.
But once again incorrectly, you are suggesting that AA members have no choice. That it just patently wrong.

So a regular drinker would be welcome?