Why do people insist AA is not religious?/Efficacy of AA & other treatment programs

[Belz...]

Why then are atheists and agnostics like Tinyal accepted?
Why are Buddists?
Jews?
Moslems?
Hindus?
And any other we could care to name?

Because religious people tend to see more in common with other woo-woos than they do with those who don't believe. Look at the muslims for instance. Some passages in their books tell them to hate Jews and other non-mulsims, but to simply kill the atheists on sight. Lovely.

 

[calebprime]

I'll allow the other 5, but the plural of anecdote IS data, not evidence. Perhaps you should consider the difference.

I regret my snippy tone.

And, I agree I was reaching there, going for six for six.

I'm not sure I understand the distinction you're making, but I do think that JREFers can be a little dismissive of testimony of people who know what they're talking about.

So far, the most persuasive thing I've read has been the Vaillant study, in which a true believer's own statistics seem to show that AA isn't that effective.

I'd like to see AA believers show what's wrong with that study.

So far, (and I may have missed it), they haven't.

I don't really have a pitbull in this fight, other than the fact that I don't join groups and don't respond well to group dynamics of any kind. Wherever three or more are gathered, I try not to be. I mean this both literally and figuratively.

So, I tend to be biased against groups when thinking about things that might work for me. (This isn't an issue I need to face, nor does anyone I'm close to.)

However, there are people here I respect who don't feel that way, such as Dancing David, and my wife.

What I find interesting is that AA has a very good image--if you're talking about newspaper coverage, TV, and movies--and it may or may not be justified.

 

[tsig]

Why then are atheists and agnostics like Tinyal accepted?
Why are Buddists?
Jews?
Moslems?
Hindus?
And any other we could care to name?

Sure, it was born of some Christian beliefs, but its 'teachings' are that of sobriety.

If it is indeed religious, what religion is it teaching when all these other believers and non-believers are equally included, welcomed and loved?

So, what religion is it?
And when answering that, tell me what religion in India, Pakistan, Nepal, South Africa, Morocco, Mozambique, Namibia, Singapore, Vietnam, Solomon Islands? and on and on I could go.

What religion is it?

Sounds like you worship your sobriety. You surely manage to mention it on almost all your posts both here and in other threads. How many medals do you want?

 

[tsig]

I'll allow the other 5, but the plural of anecdote IS data, not evidence. Perhaps you should consider the difference.

The plural of anecdote is anecdotes. A million anecdotes can be blown away by one piece of data.

 

[AlBell]

Participation in atheist dominated sites like this one gloss over the fact that the great majority of humans appear to have no problem with the possible existence of a higher power, and, if alcoholics, may find AA useful.

Yes, most people don't use critical thinking. Your point ?

My point is one you'll never understand; others might.

As to a higher power, I'd suggest an atheist consider the parts of his mind that used to be termed subconcious as his "higher power"; using his conscious mind to the best of his abilities got him where he's finally decided he needs help with his alcoholism, which is actually help with living a rational life.

Word salad.

The unconscious mind is a decidedly LOWER power.

Speaking of word salad, so was that.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

that would depend on the determination, now wouldn't?
Attendance at AA meetings and binge drinking may have a correlation, that does not imply causation.

You show me the data and then we can decide if it is even a reasobaly high enough correlation

But just saying "medical groups and experts " is an appeal to authority, show me the data.

You and I might be on different pages here. I was talking about the acceptance at that level of the disease concept, not the binge drinking.

Because religious people tend to see more in common with other woo-woos than they do with those who don't believe. Look at the muslims for instance. Some passages in their books tell them to hate Jews and other non-mulsims, but to simply kill the atheists on sight. Lovely.

That's nice, but it doesnt answer the question as to what religion is being taught when all are welcome.

Dodge noted

Sounds like you worship your sobriety. You surely manage to mention it on almost all your posts both here and in other threads. How many medals do you want?

Close, I cherish my sobriety as it was so hard to get.

What sort of medals do you have?

Dodge also noted.

 

[godofpie]

Aren't you just the perfect picture of loving AA kindness towards a fellow human being you basically know (from reading his posts) shouldn't drink?

Prolly shouldn't type either. Someone's resentment is showing. Wanna talk about it?

 

[Mr.D]

BUT addictions are behavioral disorders.

What does the best science of today say about treatment of behavioral disorders? I thought Cognitive Behavior Therapy was the generally accepted best treatment.

No sarcasm here at all, by the way. I'm genuinely curious about where addiction falls amongst other behavior disorders like OCD or phobias as far as treatment and etiology.

 

[Mr.D]

I'm curious as to where (in general terms) thread participants have been to AA meetings because there seems to be a vast difference between my experience and some of the experiences described.

I suppose it's no secret from my posts elsewhere on the forum that I live in Hawaii, so I'll just come right out and say it's where I've been to the vast majority of my 12-step meetings (mostly AA, some NA). I am quite aware that there are a handful of "bible thumper^*" meetings out there but those are the exception in my experience.

Part of this is certainly the choice of meetings I go to - so called "young persons" meetings, which are fairly culturally diverse, mostly religiously neutral (ie, explicitly agnostic, non church attending or vaguely nondenominational Christian-ish)

Also, the only place I've ever run into a cold shoulder as far as different substances, is local NA. I've found NA here to be a bit standoffish with self-identified alcoholics (as opposed to addicts), with a superior (or is it inferior?) attitude of "everyone drinks, now crack/speed/meth is a _real_ addiction")




^* Entertainingly for me in the context of this thread, there's one meeting in particular that I've heard described as being "not real AA" because it's "too religious!"

 

[Belz...]

My point is one you'll never understand; others might.

How can NOT thinking rationally bring understanding ?

Speaking of word salad, so was that.

Do you even know what "word salad" means ?

 

[Belz...]

That's nice, but it doesnt answer the question as to what religion is being taught when all are welcome.

Dodge noted

How is it a dodge when I actually gave you an answer ?

Seriously, do any of you know what the words you use mean ?

 

[Hallo Alfie]

How is it a dodge when I actually gave you an answer ?

Seriously, do any of you know what the words you use mean ?

Nice try, no cigar.
The accusation of dodge stands on the basis that:

The question was (and remains) "what religion is being taught" when all these differing beliefs (and non-beliefs) can come happily together under one roof?

 

[Gandalfs Beard]

I'm curious as to where (in general terms) thread participants have been to AA meetings because there seems to be a vast difference between my experience and some of the experiences described.

I suppose it's no secret from my posts elsewhere on the forum that I live in Hawaii, so I'll just come right out and say it's where I've been to the vast majority of my 12-step meetings (mostly AA, some NA). I am quite aware that there are a handful of "bible thumper^*" meetings out there but those are the exception in my experience.

Part of this is certainly the choice of meetings I go to - so called "young persons" meetings, which are fairly culturally diverse, mostly religiously neutral (ie, explicitly agnostic, non church attending or vaguely nondenominational Christian-ish)

Also, the only place I've ever run into a cold shoulder as far as different substances, is local NA. I've found NA here to be a bit standoffish with self-identified alcoholics (as opposed to addicts), with a superior (or is it inferior?) attitude of "everyone drinks, now crack/speed/meth is a _real_ addiction")

^* Entertainingly for me in the context of this thread, there's one meeting in particular that I've heard described as being "not real AA" because it's "too religious!"

I've been to AA and NA meetings in one of the three corners of the Liberal Triangle of San Francisco, Berkeley, and Santa Cruz. You'd think they would be as secular as all get out eh! You'd think wrong.

Again, the proof of religiosity is in the Steps themselves, no matter how people try to deny it, or ignore it.

GB

 

[Gandalfs Beard]

The question was "what religion is being taught" when all these differning beliefs (and non-beliefs) can come happily together under one roof?

No Cigar for you .

It's been pointed out time and again that the religious tenets (the 12 Steps) are Christian. The fact that some groups attempt to Universalize or New Ageize their particular branch of AA does little to hide this fact. The core teachings are still Theistic. And the "Central Office" of AA Officialdom is still unabashedly Christian.

GB

 

[Dancing David]

You and I might be on different pages here. I was talking about the acceptance at that level of the disease concept, not the binge drinking.

Ah, okay, well so the statement of a select group choosing a nomenclature that does not meet the definition of disease still applies.

It is a mental disorder, it does not have to involve withdrawal effects and therefore it is NOT a disease in the general sense.

It is a behavioral disorder. Just because of bunch of people decide that it is also a spiritual disorder, in groups that think it is effective to call it a spiritual disorder does not mean that it is a spiritual disorder.

It is a physical process as are ALL mental disorders AA Alfie, there is no dualistic separation from the mind and body, all minds are just brain processes.

So it is not a disease.

1. Some people who are alcoholics do not have a biological predisposition of alcoholism (i.e. they are not Type II alcoholics).
2. Some people who are alcoholics do not have physical withdrawal symptoms.

Therefore it is not a disease, it is a behavioral disorder like all addictions using a substance that in some cases will cause a physical withdrawal syndrome.

It is less of a disease that schizophrenia.

 

[Dancing David]

What does the best science of today say about treatment of behavioral disorders? I thought Cognitive Behavior Therapy was the generally accepted best treatment.

No sarcasm here at all, by the way. I'm genuinely curious about where addiction falls amongst other behavior disorders like OCD or phobias as far as treatment and etiology.

It can, but again longitudinal studies are expensive. The relapse prevention model is a loose CBT model.

There is less of a 'broken process' that is common to addiction that there is in OCD and some anxieties.

the formations of 'biological predipositions' to alcohol addictions are being studied, but are not really mapped out.

 

[Dancing David]

I'm curious as to where (in general terms) thread participants have been to AA meetings because there seems to be a vast difference between my experience and some of the experiences described.

[/size]

Central Illinois, squarely in the bible belt.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

If you say so. But in the meantime and until otherwise stipulated, I will stick with what the actual authorities have to say (as evidenced in previous posts).

Ultimately who gives a damn what it is. People are sick and dying out there and their loved ones suffer greatly to boot. Assistance needs to be given; and discussing the ins and outs of the rats bum on these issues does nothing for those that do suffer directly and indirectly.

Not that many will care but, for mine, the disease concept is just fine; AA is not religious (as any religion can play) but is has a spiritual element if one cares to take it up; AA has suggested steps and the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking; AA helps some but not all.
And until we find some actual 'cure' for it we need to throw as many possibilities out there as we can.

So talking on the internet about this achieves nothing, and ultimately I am not going to change the minds already made up, nor you mine.

I will continue to help the suffering alcoholic, addict and their loved ones however I can, sometimes that is 12 step-type work, sometimes counselling, sometimes detox and rehab, sometimes financial assistance and sometimes lkife skills training.

What are you guys doing?

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Why then are atheists and agnostics like Tinyal accepted?
Why are Buddists?
Jews?
Moslems?
Hindus?
And any other we could care to name?

Sure, it was born of some Christian beliefs, but its 'teachings' are that of sobriety.

If it is indeed religious, what religion is it teaching when all these other believers and non-believers are equally included, welcomed and loved?

So, what religion is it?
And when answering that, tell me what religion in India, Pakistan, Nepal, South Africa, Morocco, Mozambique, Namibia, Singapore, Vietnam, Solomon Islands? and on and on I could go.

What religion is it?

Many churches, too, allow non-believers in, in part because Christianity is a welcoming, open religon, and in part because they're hoping for converts.

I will continue to help the suffering alcoholic, addict and their loved ones however I can, sometimes that is 12 step-type work, sometimes counselling, sometimes detox and rehab, sometimes financial assistance and sometimes lkife skills training.

What are you guys doing?

Volunteered at a street magazine, three hours a week, for three quarters of a year. Buy the magazine every month. Donate money to groups that help prostitutes, the homeless and drug addicts.

 

[Dancing David]

If you say so. But in the meantime and until otherwise stipulated, I will stick with what the actual authorities have to say (as evidenced in previous posts).

Appeal to authority, okay.

Ultimately who gives a damn what it is. People are sick and dying out there and their loved ones suffer greatly to boot. Assistance needs to be given; and discussing the ins and outs of the rats bum on these issues does nothing for those that do suffer directly and indirectly.

Don't fall off your high horse AA Alfie, this is an internet forum, but if you want to pump up your ego, go right ahead.

Not that many will care but, for mine, the disease concept is just fine; AA is not religious (as any religion can play) but is has a spiritual element if one cares to take it up; AA has suggested steps and the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking; AA helps some but not all.
And until we find some actual 'cure' for it we need to throw as many possibilities out there as we can.

So talking on the internet about this achieves nothing, and ultimately I am not going to change the minds already made up, nor you mine.

I will continue to help the suffering alcoholic, addict and their loved ones however I can, sometimes that is 12 step-type work, sometimes counselling, sometimes detox and rehab, sometimes financial assistance and sometimes lkife skills training.

What are you guys doing?

You must be so confident in your skills to break your arm patting yoursekf on the back.