Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

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Good god! I have never said explosives were used to bring down WTC 7.
BTW how does fire blow out 8 stories of structure?

Explain how something that isn't explosives blows out anything.

Explain how this mystery force that isn't explosives blows out steel but not windows.

I'm the only one here talking physics.

I'm the only one here who has talked to a physicist. And no... what you are talking is not physics.
 
Explain how something that isn't explosives blows out anything.

Explain how this mystery force that isn't explosives blows out steel but not windows.



I'm the only one here who has talked to a physicist. And no... what you are talking is not physics.

Ah so free fall, energy balances and the law of conservation of energy are not physics? OK...Did you talk to a physicist or a janitor?

Excuse me while I blow out the candles on my birthday cake and fix my car which just blew a rod.
 
If I were to claim that extra energy is required, I would show:

How much energy would be required,
less​
How much energy there was,
to get​
How much "extra" energy would be required.


It's simple logic. No name-calling required.




X kazillion joules
less
Y kazillion joules

Therefore (x-y) kajillion joules required. Now we can start figuring a source for the extra joules.

Why can't you address this, cmatrix?
 
Why can't you address this, cmatrix?

For the same reason a physicist would not provide calculations if he saw a marble free fall though a sheet of 3/4" plywood. Its irrelevant. The violation is clearly evident.

Did fire simultaneously remove 8 stories of structure in WTC 7? Why can't you address this?
 
For the same reason a physicist would not provide calculations if he saw a marble free fall though a sheet of 3/4" plywood. Its irrelevant. The violation is clearly evident.

Did fire simultaneously remove 8 stories of structure in WTC 7? Why can't you address this?


You miss the point. A physicist could provide the relevant calculations if so requested. You, on the other hand.....

I can't answer the question on fire simultaneously removing 8 stories because you haven't provided a YouTube video. Without YouTube this thread is going no where!
 
For the same reason a physicist would not provide calculations if he saw a marble free fall though a sheet of 3/4" plywood. Its irrelevant. The violation is clearly evident.
If it's clearly evident, why can't I see it? Why can't you explain it using terms relevant to the law in question?

Did fire simultaneously remove 8 stories of structure in WTC 7?
no.

Why can't you address this?
I can't?



ETA - really, it's a simple question. You claim that "extra energy" is required to explain what happened. Please define how much energy was required, how much was available, and therefore how much "extra energy" was required. If you choose to ignore this question, your dishonesty will be here for all to see.
 
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If it's clearly evident, why can't I see it? Why can't you explain it using terms relevant to the law in question?

no.


I can't?



ETA - really, it's a simple question. You claim that "extra energy" is required to explain what happened. Please define how much energy was required, how much was available, and therefore how much "extra energy" was required. If you choose to ignore this question, your dishonesty will be here for all to see.
Ok when WTC 7 was in free fall _all_ the available gravitational potential energy (Y) of the building was converted to kinetic energy. To remove the 8 stories of structure in the way required X amount of energy. But there was no GPE left to remove this structure. You admitted that fire didn't remove the 8 stories of structure so something else did. So the system in the NIST theory used an extra X amount of energy, violating the law of conservation of energy. Y + X <> Y
 
Ah so free fall, energy balances and the law of conservation of energy are not physics?

Repeating terms you heard or read somewhere without understanding what they mean is not physics.

Excuse me while I... fix my car which just blew a rod.

What blew out the rod in your car was an explosion. This is how car engines work. The create hundreds of explosions per second and the energy of these explosions is channeled to the wheels propelling the vehicle forward. These explosions cause wear on the engine over time and this occaisionally leads to your car throwing a rod.

If you are suggesting that one or more explosions caused the failure of WTC7, then you need to explain how the explosive force damaged steel girders but not any windows.
 
Ok when WTC 7 was in free fall _all_ the available gravitational potential energy (Y) of the building was converted to kinetic energy. To remove the 8 stories of structure in the way required X amount of energy. But there was no GPE left to remove this structure. You admitted that fire didn't remove the 8 stories of structure so something else did. So the system in the NIST theory used an extra X amount of energy, violating the law of conservation of energy. Y + X <> Y

1 - GPE?


2 - It's possible that you think the above is an answer to my question. If that is the case, please allow me to be the first to tell you that no, it is not. You really need to do some math.

How much energy would be required,
less​
How much energy there was,
to get​
How much "extra" energy would be required.

Just a tip - your answer should contain numbers.
 
Ok when WTC 7 was in free fall _all_ the available gravitational potential energy (Y) of the building was converted to kinetic energy. To remove the 8 stories of structure in the way required X amount of energy. But there was no GPE left to remove this structure. You admitted that fire didn't remove the 8 stories of structure so something else did. So the system in the NIST theory used an extra X amount of energy, violating the law of conservation of energy. Y + X <> Y

Do you know what chemical potential energy is? It doesn't look like it.
 
It's really time to set things straight. No laws of conservation were violated. The period of unresisted collapse - i.e. "free fall" - was explained by the progression of failures during the collapse and the internal failures necessary to have caused what we saw on the outside.

For starters, we all need to understand what the observed progression of failures in the structure was:
  • The interior structure below the east penthouse failed, causing that penthouse to fall.
  • Progression of failures from east to west lead to the north face starting to fall several seconds later.
  • The east side of the tower begins it's descent, then the west side very soon (less than a second) after.
The penthouse fall and north face, east and west wall descents were observed from the outside. Repeat: Those are observations, not suppositions. That is what happened, and what can be seen in recordings of the collapse.

Next, we need to realize (and I need to remember :o) that what was observed descending at near g acceleration was a portion of the exterior of the building: Part of the north face of the structure. This was noted in NCSTAR 1A.

  • In Stage 2, the north face descended at gravitational acceleration, as the buckled columns provided negligible support to the upper portion of the north face. This free fall drop continued for approximately 8 stories or 32.0 m (105
    ft), the distance traveled between times t = 1.75 s and t = 4.0 s.
  • In Stage 3, the acceleration decreased somewhat as the upper portion of the north face encountered increased resistance from the collapsed structure and the debris pile below.

We know what order visible parts of the exterior started falling; all we have to do is look at videos to determine this. We know that the upper part of the north face is what's observed to have falled at g or near g; NIST comes out and says it. What we don't directly see is why that part of the north face - as well as the floors attached to it - met little resistence, but it can be figured out from the fact that the interior was on fire, and from the design of the building. All of that is detailed in the NIST reports (in painful detail in 1-9), but the bottom line is that to explain the initial failure that led to the Penthouse collapse, fires had to have caused a or some interior column(s) to fail. NIST identifies that as column 79 around the 13th floor, but that level of detail isn't needed for this explanation. What is important is that a failure around that level of the main support columns on the east side of the tower would, due to the design of the building (look up the sections regarding "long span trusses" in the WTC7 report) also cause a series of floor failures. Those in turn would cause buckling of columns lower in the building (hence, the "progressive" in "progressive collapse"). When those columns buckle, they can't support weight. So what happens when the upper segments eventually start to descend? They come to those buckled columns and meet practically no resistance, definitely not a level that can be measured in a video. So an entire section of the tower suddenly falls at g (or close to it) because of those failures. Once the loads from the descending segment gets past those columns, there's resistence again.

Note that the explanation wasn't that 8 floors "were blown" or anything like that. It is that interior failures known to have occurred because of the east penthouse failure also buckled columns on lower floors, and the upper part of the north wall fell for around 8 stories unopposed. Poorly communicating that as a failure of floors all at once is my fault, but the ultimate point is that that segment of tower - floors, exterior wall, etc. - falling at g was doing so because other failures had buckled lower supports to the point where they provided little to no resistence. There's nothing magical about this, nor is there anything that violates any supposed conservation laws (note that cmatrix hasn't identified which law :rolleyes:; there are multiple such laws in physics). All that happens is that a failure starts in a critical point in the building, and initiates other failures that eventually progresses to the point of total collapse.

No magic, certainly no energy deficit. Most definitely no energy devoted to removing 8 entire floors (that's absolutely not what happened, nor was it what any of us were trying to say what happened). All that's needed is an understanding of what actually was seen, and what happened on the interior to cause it in the order that it was seen in. That's it.
 
Oh, BTW: None of what I wrote above is new at all. We dealt with the issue of bounded free-fall several years ago:
This is old news. I didn't happen to remember the specifics well, but that doesn't change the fact that it's already been discussed. There's nothing suspicious about this period of a portion of the structure descending at g at all. Nor is it some sort of hidden secret; NIST comes out and explains it in NCSTAR 1A. And we elaborate on it in the threads above. This is only a point of suspicion for conspiracy peddlers, not for rational people who've taken the trouble to peruse what is known about the collapse.
 

Gravitational Potential Energy. He's trying the tired old "gravity couldn't have explained this" argument, but his "this" is a canard about "removing" 8 entire floors. Nobody said that; the closest I came was discussing floors falling (I shouldn't have written "failing") as a unit, but that's not "removing" them. That's his strawman.
 
It's really time to set things straight. No laws of conservation were violated. The period of unresisted collapse - i.e. "free fall" - was explained by the progression of failures during the collapse and the internal failures necessary to have caused what we saw on the outside.

For starters, we all need to understand what the observed progression of failures in the structure was:
  • The interior structure below the east penthouse failed, causing that penthouse to fall.
  • Progression of failures from east to west lead to the north face starting to fall several seconds later.
  • The east side of the tower begins it's descent, then the west side very soon (less than a second) after.
The penthouse fall and north face, east and west wall descents were observed from the outside. Repeat: Those are observations, not suppositions. That is what happened, and what can be seen in recordings of the collapse.

Next, we need to realize (and I need to remember :o) that what was observed descending at near g acceleration was a portion of the exterior of the building: Part of the north face of the structure. This was noted in NCSTAR 1A.



We know what order visible parts of the exterior started falling; all we have to do is look at videos to determine this. We know that the upper part of the north face is what's observed to have falled at g or near g; NIST comes out and says it. What we don't directly see is why that part of the north face - as well as the floors attached to it - met little resistence, but it can be figured out from the fact that the interior was on fire, and from the design of the building. All of that is detailed in the NIST reports (in painful detail in 1-9), but the bottom line is that to explain the initial failure that led to the Penthouse collapse, fires had to have caused a or some interior column(s) to fail. NIST identifies that as column 79 around the 13th floor, but that level of detail isn't needed for this explanation. What is important is that a failure around that level of the main support columns on the east side of the tower would, due to the design of the building (look up the sections regarding "long span trusses" in the WTC7 report) also cause a series of floor failures. Those in turn would cause buckling of columns lower in the building (hence, the "progressive" in "progressive collapse"). When those columns buckle, they can't support weight. So what happens when the upper segments eventually start to descend? They come to those buckled columns and meet practically no resistance, definitely not a level that can be measured in a video. So an entire section of the tower suddenly falls at g (or close to it) because of those failures. Once the loads from the descending segment gets past those columns, there's resistence again.

Note that the explanation wasn't that 8 floors "were blown" or anything like that. It is that interior failures known to have occurred because of the east penthouse failure also buckled columns on lower floors, and the upper part of the north wall fell for around 8 stories unopposed. Poorly communicating that as a failure of floors all at once is my fault, but the ultimate point is that that segment of tower - floors, exterior wall, etc. - falling at g was doing so because other failures had buckled lower supports to the point where they provided little to no resistence. There's nothing magical about this, nor is there anything that violates any supposed conservation laws (note that cmatrix hasn't identified which law :rolleyes:; there are multiple such laws in physics). All that happens is that a failure starts in a critical point in the building, and initiates other failures that eventually progresses to the point of total collapse.

No magic, certainly no energy deficit. Most definitely no energy devoted to removing 8 entire floors (that's absolutely not what happened, nor was it what any of us were trying to say what happened). All that's needed is an understanding of what actually was seen, and what happened on the interior to cause it in the order that it was seen in. That's it.
Oh yes all 58 perimeter columns and 25 massive core columns buckled simultaneously over 8 stories to allow free fall. That's not hard to believe at all. Remember that the NIST fairy tale is completely unverified, untested and unsupported. Their "evidence" is a computer model whose data is unavailable to independent researchers. Nothing suspicious about that at all.
 
Oh yes all 58 perimeter columns and 25 massive core columns buckled simultaneously over 8 stories to allow free fall. That's not hard to believe at all. Remember that the NIST fairy tale is completely unverified, untested and unsupported. Their "evidence" is a computer model whose data is unavailable to independent researchers. Nothing suspicious about that at all.

Cool story bro.
 
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Oh yes all 58 perimeter columns and 25 massive core columns buckled simultaneously over 8 stories to allow free fall. That's not hard to believe at all. Remember that the NIST fairy tale is completely unverified, untested and unsupported. Their "evidence" is a computer model whose data is unavailable to independent researchers. Nothing suspicious about that at all.

And your basis for contention? Nothing right, I mean you don't know how to operate a computer model, don't know structural engineering, no physics background, no "hands on experience" of any sort.

Are you catching what we're laying down here? You have NOTHING but unsupported speculation based on lack of knowledge.

Giving your conspiracy any consideration is ridiculous. It has nothing to do with the fact that you are prone to fantasy, honest. It's simply equivalent to allowing a 6th grader to write your masters paper. Unless you're Doogie Houser, and I get the feeling you aren't a child prodigy.
 
Sure. Free fall means nothing is resisting the building's fall. Fire is not explosive. It gradually weakens steel. It can't simultaneously remove 8 stories of structure. Either some extra energy was involved in removing the structure that should have been in the way or some extra energy was somehow propelling the building downward (highly unlikely). The NIST fairly tale doesn't account for this extra energy so it violates the (conservation) laws of physics.

Really?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lufwzY0Rhs&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nItMYK-1vBM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTQWNCeCBvQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjAKjdA5Lzw&feature=related

All using fire alone. Might want to rethink that statement.....
 
Oh yes all 58 perimeter columns and 25 massive core columns buckled simultaneously over 8 stories to allow free fall. That's not hard to believe at all. Remember that the NIST fairy tale is completely unverified, untested and unsupported. Their "evidence" is a computer model whose data is unavailable to independent researchers. Nothing suspicious about that at all.

I think I found your problem. It's the math portion.

The ENTIRE building did not fall at FFA. A PORTION of the North Face did.
The NORTH FACE did not have 58 columns. (see here http://wtc.nist.gov/media/NIST_NCSTAR_1A_for_public_comment.pdf Page 44 of the PDF ) It actually had 14, IF we count the corner columns.

So, now we are down to 14, possibly 12. I will give you the benefit o the doubt. Now, we know, by the time the exterior of the building began to fall, that the core damage was quite extensive. Meaning, that the shell was basically standing on it's own. Parts near the South face, and SE and SW corners may have still been attached, however unlikely.

Now, we know that this type of design relied on the floor girders to support the inner and outer columns laterally. This is basic engineering 101 (Suprise, I know this, and I am not an engineer) Once these girders are removed, the inner and outer columns are left on their own for support. They cannot do this, and collapse. Does it collapse straight down? No, they fall to either the inside of the building, or the outside. To demonstrate this, stand a 2x4x8 up on its end, to it is sticking up like a tree. Let go. Does it fall straight down? No, of course not. THAT would violate the laws of physics. So, what does it do? It falls in some direction. Left, right, doesn't matter. Now, if we did this, but attached 47 more 2x4x8s onto it, spliced them together, then removed the lateral support, what do you think will happen? One of those splices is almost guaranteed to give out, causing whatever was above it, to fall a different direction.

This is what most likely caused the 2.5 seconds of freefall.

Does this make sense? I don't think I can dumb it down and more than I already have.
 
... No one here has shown how my analysis is wrong. All they can do is attempt to sidetrack the discussion.
You have shown it is wrong by not being famous. If your analysis (where is it) was correct we would know it. The problem is your analysis is wrong. I will show you.

... One more time. Free fall means no resistance. Normal office fires can't blow out 8 stories of structure simultaneously. If fire didn't do it something else did which is not acknowledged in the US government's official loony theory. So their crackpot theory violates the (conservation) laws of physics.
Is the key word one, or more?

Free fall means no resistance? lol, the time for collapse of WTC 7 is much more than free fall. You have to include the entire collapse. Your analysis has to explain how the Penthouse fell through the structure before the facade fell.

Normal office fires peak at 1400 to 1500 degrees C. Oops. Look, normal office fires destroyed, blew out more than 8 stories. Oops.
12447454a26a3309fa.jpg

A concrete core saved the total collapse. The building was destroyed by fire, it is gone, totaled. BTW, unlike WTC7, WTC1, and WTC2, this fire was fought. The steel section collapsed.
onemeridiansag.jpg

Normal office fire did this. This building, a high-rise, totaled by fire. The fire was fought and the sprinkler system on the 30 floor saved the building from possible collapse. Why does 911 truth fail to research fire, physics and engineering?

The topic of thread exposes a liar, who will not give up his money, but he will defend his delusions.
 
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