CompusMentus
Waiting for the Worms
The planes were faked? I get it! They were paper-mache and washing up liquid bottles.
Clearly Blue Peter has a lot to answer for.
Compus
Ed All 43 videos "Second Hit"" [Explosion]at WTC 2: Plane or No Plane?
- Thread starter jammonius
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- no plane theory no planes
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The planes were faked? I get it! They were paper-mache and washing up liquid bottles.
Clearly Blue Peter has a lot to answer for.
Compus
TJM
Potsing Whiled Runk
They'd claim the word doesn't apply because they don't exist.
Post # 1368 Ongoing Refutation 5/55
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php...postcount=1368
Gene McGillian (unspecific - could be either plane)
"I saw (the plane) maybe 200 yards before it hit," said Gene McGillian of Dobbs Ferry, a broker at the New York Mercantile Exchange. "I saw all kinds of debris and body parts on the ground and on car hoods. You had to move pretty quickly because there were pieces of metal hitting the ground. It was horrible."
http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...-1/SPECIAL0106
The quoted claim is little short of out and out fraud. It literally puts words into a person's mouth, including the words, "(the plane)" and then claims the words thusly inserted into mouth could refer to either one, assuming there were two planes when none has actually been confirmed.
That is rich.
Needless to say, the quoted account is perfectly illustrative that it takes next to nothing to convince people there were planes on 9/11, including out and out fraud.
Carlitos, I cannot believe you posted up a claim like that as proof of the proposition United Flight 175 crashed into the South Tower.
What you posted up is not proof of anything other than fraud.
Do you acknowledge the truth of the foregoing or not?
As usual, you are relying on a non-verifiable, inadmissible source, yet again.
Kimberly Morales
"It was banking and it was flying far too low," says Kimberly Morales, a college student who was coming out of the Chambers Street subway station. "I could see a little bit of space between its nose and the South Tower. And then they came together in a big explosion and a huge ball of fire. It was instant."
September 11: An Oral History, Dean E. Murphy
Here's another fireball and explosion, with claim of a plane added in that is completely at variance with the path claimed in the various videos. Hey Carlitos, do you not recognize your witnesses are contradicting the videos?
As usual, you are relying on a non-verifiable, inadmissible source, yet again.
Murray Murad
Maybe about 10 to 12 minutes after that first plane, I heard another plane. Then I said to myself, weíre being attacked.
I ran downstairs. No sooner did I run downstairs and look up, that I saw the second plane strike the south tower. It was such a vicious hit and such a precision hit, it was unbelievable.
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html...rad_Murray.txt
Murad is a legitimate witness in terms of sourcing. Murad is not a legitimate witness in terms of content. There is no known instance in which the sound generated before the second explosion lasted long enough for Murad to have begun hearing the sound, then run downstairs, then look up and see a plane.
That statement contradicts all known information about the event.
That said, I am inclined to count Murad as a witness, based solely on his statement as I can imagine that supporters of the common storyline are becoming a bit desparate for witnesses, so I'll count Murad.
FIREFIGHTER JAMES MURPHY
After that I ran up to the roof on the third floor with me and Eric Bernsten. We were watching it. We could see it from here. We have an unobstructed view. The other guys came up too. All six of us were on the roof...
Then we saw the second one come up. It looked like it was coming up the East River from here. I guess it was coming from the south. I thought it banked over the East River, which is what it looked like. I thought it made a left over the East River and went right into it going from east to west. But as it turns out, it came from the south. Then we saw it just go right into the building and explode.
I remember talking to Eric. I remember Eric saying something, "Oh, my God, there's another plane." I was saying to him, "That plane is closer to us. It's really not a big plane going towards the building." Two seconds later it rammed into the building. You don't expect it. We just freaked.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...IC/9110323.PDF
Once again, we have a valid witness source. But the witness contradicts the official storyline and says so. As such, this is not a witness that counts.
Haleh Nazeri
I stood on the street with about 100 or so other people and watched the fire with horror. Then all of a sudden I saw another plane, it was so loud and so low and so wrong. I knew before it even hit in that fraction of a second that something was terribly wrong and that my world would never be the same. When the plane hit, as you have all now seen, it created quite a bit of debris, which I saw flying towards me. The entire crowd turned and starting running the other way.
http://www.iranian.com/Features/2001/September/911/
The above is not a valid source. It comes from a newspaper, Iranian no less, which in most other contexts would probably meet with opposition from debunkers. For instance, one can easily imagine a howl of protest of The Iranian were to run a 9/11 Truth story. Here, however, debunkers seem content to rely on it as a source. As it is a newspaper or equivalent, it is not evidence.
Andrew Nelson
"There was no sound as these tremendous buildings went down," said Andrew Nelson of San Francisco, who was in New York visiting family and friends. "The World Trade Center was there this morning. I'm looking where the towers should be and they are not there."
Nelson was having coffee in a friend's West Broadway loft when the first of the hijacked commercial jets slammed into the World Trade Center.
"I'm watching the World Trade Center go up in flames," he said at 8:55 a.m., not knowing that he was watching the signature moment of the most staggering terrorist attack on the United States unfold.
"All of a sudden we heard this whoosh of low-flying jet, there was this murmur in the streets, knots of people were looking south and started screaming.
"The entire World Trade Center is on fire. Look at the shrapnel falling. It is falling into the streets."
Several minutes later, with crowds of store clerks, office workers and tourists gaping at the destruction, a second plane appeared in the sky.
"This plane banked around the side of the World Trade Center looking like it was going right at it. There was a huge fireball and it just exploded. People on the street screamed, cried no, no, no, and sobbed," he said. "It is horrifying. There is debris falling from windows. . . People on the street are gesturing, crying, in shock."
Some time later, the two buildings collapsed, first one, then the other. "The funny thing is, from a mile away on West Broadway, there was no sound. There was no sound when these buildings went down," Nelson said.
http://www.esubjects.com/curric/gene...l_HardNews.pdf
Anything given the designation "HardNews" is almost certainly propaganda. Whether it is or isn't, it is not evidence worthy.
CHIEF OF THE DEPARTMENT DANIEL NIGRO (FDNY)
At some point after our arrival and after we had moved to the west side of West Street, I heard a loud roar of a jet, looked up and saw the second plane impact the south tower. At that point it was clear to me it was a terrorist attack. Earlier I didn't know what it was. I assumed it was an accident.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...IC/9110154.PDF
That is a witness, pure and simple. It is noted, however, that Nigro was with a group that included Chief Ganci. Nigro states:
"Chief Ganci and myself directed Chief Burns
and Chief Barbara to the south tower, along with Chief
Ray Downey."
We already know that Chief Ganci disputes the plane claim from the same location as Nigro claims plane.
FIREFIGHTER ROBERT NORRIS
We all got out of the rig, and we were standing there. We watched another plane come in. I felt the plane was coming underneath the pillar of smoke that was coming out of the first tower, but obviously it veered into the tower, and it took another hit.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...IC/9110396.PDF
This is not a witness. He is obviously trying to reconcile his claim with what was seen on teevee. Furthermore, he also seeks to hide within a group by giving the now famous "WE" declaration when the issue is not what 'we saw' but is rather what the individual observed.
I know posters here "don't get it" in connection with the "whatyoumeanwekemosabe" situation and that is too bad. In any other situation other than 9/11 world, I'm quite sure posters here would be able to understand the claim "we saw" in a context where the issue is what the individual saw is an indicator of uncertainty.
This witness does not count.
BATTALION CHIEF BRIAN O'FLAHERTY (FDNY)
Just then out of the corner of my eye, I could see this plane. I just remember the dark. It was in the shadow. It looked low. I thought, "What the heck is the guy doing?" I watched it, watched him turn and crash right into the south tower. Right away I knew it was terrorism or terrorists. I didn't know what the first one was, but I knew what the second one was.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...IC/9110431.PDF
This individual does not count as a witness because there is doubt as to what he saw.
However, perhaps Carlitos will feel a little better now. There are 5 witnesses out of 55 claims that count as such. That number remains puny by comparison to the NO PLANE witnesses and is less than 10% of the witnesses claimed.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php...postcount=1368
Gene McGillian (unspecific - could be either plane)
"I saw (the plane) maybe 200 yards before it hit," said Gene McGillian of Dobbs Ferry, a broker at the New York Mercantile Exchange. "I saw all kinds of debris and body parts on the ground and on car hoods. You had to move pretty quickly because there were pieces of metal hitting the ground. It was horrible."
http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...-1/SPECIAL0106
The quoted claim is little short of out and out fraud. It literally puts words into a person's mouth, including the words, "(the plane)" and then claims the words thusly inserted into mouth could refer to either one, assuming there were two planes when none has actually been confirmed.
That is rich.
Needless to say, the quoted account is perfectly illustrative that it takes next to nothing to convince people there were planes on 9/11, including out and out fraud.
Carlitos, I cannot believe you posted up a claim like that as proof of the proposition United Flight 175 crashed into the South Tower.
What you posted up is not proof of anything other than fraud.
Do you acknowledge the truth of the foregoing or not?
As usual, you are relying on a non-verifiable, inadmissible source, yet again.
Kimberly Morales
"It was banking and it was flying far too low," says Kimberly Morales, a college student who was coming out of the Chambers Street subway station. "I could see a little bit of space between its nose and the South Tower. And then they came together in a big explosion and a huge ball of fire. It was instant."
September 11: An Oral History, Dean E. Murphy
Here's another fireball and explosion, with claim of a plane added in that is completely at variance with the path claimed in the various videos. Hey Carlitos, do you not recognize your witnesses are contradicting the videos?
As usual, you are relying on a non-verifiable, inadmissible source, yet again.
Murray Murad
Maybe about 10 to 12 minutes after that first plane, I heard another plane. Then I said to myself, weíre being attacked.
I ran downstairs. No sooner did I run downstairs and look up, that I saw the second plane strike the south tower. It was such a vicious hit and such a precision hit, it was unbelievable.
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html...rad_Murray.txt
Murad is a legitimate witness in terms of sourcing. Murad is not a legitimate witness in terms of content. There is no known instance in which the sound generated before the second explosion lasted long enough for Murad to have begun hearing the sound, then run downstairs, then look up and see a plane.
That statement contradicts all known information about the event.
That said, I am inclined to count Murad as a witness, based solely on his statement as I can imagine that supporters of the common storyline are becoming a bit desparate for witnesses, so I'll count Murad.
FIREFIGHTER JAMES MURPHY
After that I ran up to the roof on the third floor with me and Eric Bernsten. We were watching it. We could see it from here. We have an unobstructed view. The other guys came up too. All six of us were on the roof...
Then we saw the second one come up. It looked like it was coming up the East River from here. I guess it was coming from the south. I thought it banked over the East River, which is what it looked like. I thought it made a left over the East River and went right into it going from east to west. But as it turns out, it came from the south. Then we saw it just go right into the building and explode.
I remember talking to Eric. I remember Eric saying something, "Oh, my God, there's another plane." I was saying to him, "That plane is closer to us. It's really not a big plane going towards the building." Two seconds later it rammed into the building. You don't expect it. We just freaked.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...IC/9110323.PDF
Once again, we have a valid witness source. But the witness contradicts the official storyline and says so. As such, this is not a witness that counts.
Haleh Nazeri
I stood on the street with about 100 or so other people and watched the fire with horror. Then all of a sudden I saw another plane, it was so loud and so low and so wrong. I knew before it even hit in that fraction of a second that something was terribly wrong and that my world would never be the same. When the plane hit, as you have all now seen, it created quite a bit of debris, which I saw flying towards me. The entire crowd turned and starting running the other way.
http://www.iranian.com/Features/2001/September/911/
The above is not a valid source. It comes from a newspaper, Iranian no less, which in most other contexts would probably meet with opposition from debunkers. For instance, one can easily imagine a howl of protest of The Iranian were to run a 9/11 Truth story. Here, however, debunkers seem content to rely on it as a source. As it is a newspaper or equivalent, it is not evidence.
Andrew Nelson
"There was no sound as these tremendous buildings went down," said Andrew Nelson of San Francisco, who was in New York visiting family and friends. "The World Trade Center was there this morning. I'm looking where the towers should be and they are not there."
Nelson was having coffee in a friend's West Broadway loft when the first of the hijacked commercial jets slammed into the World Trade Center.
"I'm watching the World Trade Center go up in flames," he said at 8:55 a.m., not knowing that he was watching the signature moment of the most staggering terrorist attack on the United States unfold.
"All of a sudden we heard this whoosh of low-flying jet, there was this murmur in the streets, knots of people were looking south and started screaming.
"The entire World Trade Center is on fire. Look at the shrapnel falling. It is falling into the streets."
Several minutes later, with crowds of store clerks, office workers and tourists gaping at the destruction, a second plane appeared in the sky.
"This plane banked around the side of the World Trade Center looking like it was going right at it. There was a huge fireball and it just exploded. People on the street screamed, cried no, no, no, and sobbed," he said. "It is horrifying. There is debris falling from windows. . . People on the street are gesturing, crying, in shock."
Some time later, the two buildings collapsed, first one, then the other. "The funny thing is, from a mile away on West Broadway, there was no sound. There was no sound when these buildings went down," Nelson said.
http://www.esubjects.com/curric/gene...l_HardNews.pdf
Anything given the designation "HardNews" is almost certainly propaganda. Whether it is or isn't, it is not evidence worthy.
CHIEF OF THE DEPARTMENT DANIEL NIGRO (FDNY)
At some point after our arrival and after we had moved to the west side of West Street, I heard a loud roar of a jet, looked up and saw the second plane impact the south tower. At that point it was clear to me it was a terrorist attack. Earlier I didn't know what it was. I assumed it was an accident.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...IC/9110154.PDF
That is a witness, pure and simple. It is noted, however, that Nigro was with a group that included Chief Ganci. Nigro states:
"Chief Ganci and myself directed Chief Burns
and Chief Barbara to the south tower, along with Chief
Ray Downey."
We already know that Chief Ganci disputes the plane claim from the same location as Nigro claims plane.
FIREFIGHTER ROBERT NORRIS
We all got out of the rig, and we were standing there. We watched another plane come in. I felt the plane was coming underneath the pillar of smoke that was coming out of the first tower, but obviously it veered into the tower, and it took another hit.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...IC/9110396.PDF
This is not a witness. He is obviously trying to reconcile his claim with what was seen on teevee. Furthermore, he also seeks to hide within a group by giving the now famous "WE" declaration when the issue is not what 'we saw' but is rather what the individual observed.
I know posters here "don't get it" in connection with the "whatyoumeanwekemosabe" situation and that is too bad. In any other situation other than 9/11 world, I'm quite sure posters here would be able to understand the claim "we saw" in a context where the issue is what the individual saw is an indicator of uncertainty.
This witness does not count.
BATTALION CHIEF BRIAN O'FLAHERTY (FDNY)
Just then out of the corner of my eye, I could see this plane. I just remember the dark. It was in the shadow. It looked low. I thought, "What the heck is the guy doing?" I watched it, watched him turn and crash right into the south tower. Right away I knew it was terrorism or terrorists. I didn't know what the first one was, but I knew what the second one was.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...IC/9110431.PDF
This individual does not count as a witness because there is doubt as to what he saw.
However, perhaps Carlitos will feel a little better now. There are 5 witnesses out of 55 claims that count as such. That number remains puny by comparison to the NO PLANE witnesses and is less than 10% of the witnesses claimed.
excaza
Illuminator
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2007
- Messages
- 3,593
Yes, I've frequently seen laser beams with noses that bank and fly low.
5 people undeniably saw an airplane hit the tower, proof that no planes hit the tower.
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excaza
Illuminator
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2007
- Messages
- 3,593
Someone who didn't expressly see an airplane. Because some people didn't see it, it doesn't exist.
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2009
- Messages
- 18,903
I am not reading jammos rape of witness testimonies. Just like to know:
He accepted reliable 5 plane witnesses - is that the jist of it? n(plane) = 5
Any reliable DEW-witnesses thus far? n(dew) = 0 or > ?
Can somebody divide n(plane)/n(dew) and discuss the result, please?
While we are at it how about
n(plane-videos) / n(dew-videos)?
n(physical evidence plane) / n(physical evidence dew)?
How about comparing a-priori likelihood?
L(real world|planes crashing and fires destroying buildings) / L(real world|DEW with required energy and power stationed in space and thousands of co-conspirators in the know and ...)
He accepted reliable 5 plane witnesses - is that the jist of it? n(plane) = 5
Any reliable DEW-witnesses thus far? n(dew) = 0 or > ?
Can somebody divide n(plane)/n(dew) and discuss the result, please?
While we are at it how about
n(plane-videos) / n(dew-videos)?
n(physical evidence plane) / n(physical evidence dew)?
How about comparing a-priori likelihood?
L(real world|planes crashing and fires destroying buildings) / L(real world|DEW with required energy and power stationed in space and thousands of co-conspirators in the know and ...)
The cup of excuses and stupidity runneth over.
"I could see the plane" = no plane
That last one in particular is quite a doozy in terms of cognitive dissonance, yes. Engaging this poster is fruitless.
That last one in particular is quite a doozy in terms of cognitive dissonance, yes. Engaging this poster is fruitless.
Bill,
As I indicated, the Flight 175 simulation of 4min40sec of the supposed Flight 175 flight path, based on using a Boeing simulator and the known data is an excellent piece of data.
The simulation, based on the NTSB flight path and other data confirms the flight path and rate of descent is impossible and the data do not correlate with what is seen in the alleged Flight 175 crash videos.
Let me repeat that:
The simulation, based on the NTSB flight path and other data confirms the flight path and rate of descent is impossible and the data do not correlate with what is seen in the alleged Flight 175 crash videos.
It may be that this 9:44 video is worth its own thread. Certainly, if fits in this thread, imho, but the topic is specifically unique to warrant another thread standing alone.
As you are the person who posted up this video, I will leave it to your discretion as to whether you want to start a new thread on the video.
Here, then, is an attempt at a graphic index of the first segment of the video going from 0:00 to 2:30:
1--0:00-0:22-- Claims "pilots dispute" whether a Boeing 767 could descend 20,000ft in 4min4sec
2--0:22-0:37-- Flight simulation needed. Claims using Boeing 747 simulation to detail Boeing 767 flight is valid.
3--0:44-0:52--"Official story" of Flight 175 from National Security Archives is referenced as a data point.
4--0:52-0:59 Claims to use NTSB "Flight Path Study" that was based on "is this exercise or is this real world" data about which we do not know whether it is the one or the other.
5--1:00-1:28 References use of radar data from NTSB study in the reconstruction and explains the use of the flight path data points A to G.
6--1:29 - 1:35 The scene now changes to that of an aircraft Simulator with the claim that Flight 175 is at 31,000ft.
7--1:36-1:44 The white triangle on the simulator is said to represent the plane and the points of reference from the NTSB radar data.
8--1:44- 2:10 The radar points are coordinated with the simulator and it is explained how it is that the tracking can be done with accuracy.
9--2:10-2:30The NTSB data is then used to plot a chart of the descent, including rate, speed and so on over the course of the last 4min40sec. of the supposed flight.
That concludes the first segment of the video. The next is entitiled Reconstruction and begins at about the 2:30mark.
What is even worse, is I truly and whole heartedly think, that Jammonious, truly believes what he/she/it says, without rhyme or reason. I am almost positive that he would argue the sky is green and the grass is blue, and that the pictures showing him wrong are all faked.
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
Who at the airlines or the planes lease holders (a separate division of United at least) have you spoke to?
I'd be interested to know, I spent quite a bit of time trying to hunt down the wreckage of UA 93 and I would like to know if you talked to some of the same people.
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Pilots dispute whether a Boeing 767 can descend at an angle of about seven degrees? Really?
Well, that's silly. I wonder why anyone bothered to go to so much trouble to examine such a patently absurd claim. If I disputed whether a car can go faster than 50 miles per hour on a freeway, would someone run a simulation to prove me wrong?
Respectfully,
Myriad
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It's the REALSTICE kind!!!!!
EventHorizon
Atheist Tergiversator
This is incredible. How can these two sentences precede a long post where you do nothing but put words in people's mouths? Aren't you truthers embarrassed to do stuff like this? Have you absolutely no shame?
Let me double check for sake of accuracy, are you saying the following is a valid witness claim concerning alleged Flight 175:
Gene McGillian (unspecific - could be either plane)
"I saw (the plane) maybe 200 yards before it hit," said Gene McGillian of Dobbs Ferry, a broker at the New York Mercantile Exchange. "I saw all kinds of debris and body parts on the ground and on car hoods. You had to move pretty quickly because there were pieces of metal hitting the ground. It was horrible."
http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...-1/SPECIAL0106
Do you dispute that the quintessential words in that quote "(the plane)" were inserted, thus confirming that is not what the person can be attributed as saying?
Do you dispute that the quote is uncertain as to what it is even referencing?
Is there any way that you can think of to post to claim the quoted statement is a valid witness statement as to a jetliner hitting the South Tower, which is what Carlitos claims was being posted in post # 1368?
If so, please post it.
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EventHorizon
Atheist Tergiversator
I fail to see in my post where I said anything about the McGillian quote. So now you are changing the subject and putting words into my mouth. Interesting.
CompusMentus
Waiting for the Worms
The crew and passengers of United Airlines Flight 175
On the morning of September 11 2001, United Airlines Flight 175 was flying to Los Angeles from Boston, and was hijacked by Islamic terrorists. Shortly after taking off it was deliberately flown into the South Tower of the World Trade Centre, New York.
59 passengers and crew were on board (not counting the hijackers).
All were killed.
UNITED AIRLINES FLIGHT 175 PASSENGERS
John J. Corcoran, 43, was a passenger on Flight 175. He lived in Norwell, Massachusetts. Known to all as "Jay", John J. Corcoran was a merchant seaman. He left behind his wife of 20 years Diann, and 2 children, Meghan and John "Jake" Corcoran.
Following his death a foundation was set up in his hometown. This mission statement of the foundation states:
The Jay Corcoran Memorial Scholarship Foundation was created to honor the memory of a beloved Norwell man who lost his life in the tragedy of September 11, 2001. Jay was a devoted family man with a robust love of life, a tremendous work ethic and a great respect for what it means to be an American. To encourage these qualities in the students of Norwell High School, this Foundation strives to award educational scholarships in his name to worthy students that embody the spirit Jay so demonstrated.
Each September, the foundation holds a golf tournament to raise funds for educational awards given each year to graduating students at Norwell High School. Since it's inception in 2001, this foundation has awarded over $270K in scholarship grants.
Source:- HERE HERE HERE
Immutable facts. Unassailable reason.
Compus
On the morning of September 11 2001, United Airlines Flight 175 was flying to Los Angeles from Boston, and was hijacked by Islamic terrorists. Shortly after taking off it was deliberately flown into the South Tower of the World Trade Centre, New York.
59 passengers and crew were on board (not counting the hijackers).
All were killed.
UNITED AIRLINES FLIGHT 175 PASSENGERS
John J. Corcoran, 43, was a passenger on Flight 175. He lived in Norwell, Massachusetts. Known to all as "Jay", John J. Corcoran was a merchant seaman. He left behind his wife of 20 years Diann, and 2 children, Meghan and John "Jake" Corcoran.
Following his death a foundation was set up in his hometown. This mission statement of the foundation states:
The Jay Corcoran Memorial Scholarship Foundation was created to honor the memory of a beloved Norwell man who lost his life in the tragedy of September 11, 2001. Jay was a devoted family man with a robust love of life, a tremendous work ethic and a great respect for what it means to be an American. To encourage these qualities in the students of Norwell High School, this Foundation strives to award educational scholarships in his name to worthy students that embody the spirit Jay so demonstrated.
Each September, the foundation holds a golf tournament to raise funds for educational awards given each year to graduating students at Norwell High School. Since it's inception in 2001, this foundation has awarded over $270K in scholarship grants.
Source:- HERE HERE HERE
Immutable facts. Unassailable reason.
Compus
triforcharity
Banned
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2009
- Messages
- 13,961
Here is his statement about the events of 9/11
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110194.PDF
Here is the Lt. Nevins thathe mentions in that paragraph.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110106.PDF
So, yet again, you have been found to be.....wrong. Imagine that.
Page 4, he specifically says he saw the plane.
- Status