Returning to Post # 1368 - Carlitos' Witness Claims
Post # 1368 Ongoing Refutation 3/46
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php...postcount=1368
It has been a few pages since we last had a chance to show how the process of refutation works. In our last post on Carlitos' witness claims the NO PLANE side struck
pure gold in terms of proving what the witnesses actually said. There we encountered Chief Chris Ganci who is a Great American Hero who singlehandedly put paid to claims any aircraft crashed into the WTC on 9/11. He nailed both claims;
"...He was like no no no no, we have another explosion..."
Chief Ganci is a true American Hero.
Now let's continue with Carlitos' list. As we shall see, the next group is a large one -- 12 -- and it is easily dealt with. There is not one valid witness statement among them:
0
Arthur E. Imperatore Jr
...Arthur E. Imperatore Jr., president of NY Waterway, based in Weehawken, N.J., said he had dropped his kids off at school and was driving to his office when he saw the second aircraft hit the other WTC tower. "From my car I could see both towers burning.
http://www.fireboat.org/press/prof_mariner_jan02_1.asp
Needless to say, the above statement, taken for what it actually says, does not include a statement by Imperatore that he saw any plane. That statement is attributed to him by the writer of the article. Instead, what Imperatore actually said is: "From my car I could see both towers burning."
Of course, the source itself is a mariners website and the article is not valid evidence.
Melissa Johnson
...I heard some shouts and a bunch of footsteps. A swarm of people was running towards me. Above the people I saw a big jet aimed at the World Trade Center. In a second, it became buried into the South Tower.
September 11: An Oral History, Dean E. Murphy
The above is not evidence, but is interesting based on how it describes a plane crash. Take a look posters. Does a plane bury itself into a steel building, or does it crash into one?
Dana Kincaid
I passed by the WTC a few minutes before the first impact, but did not hear or see it -- I must have been in the elevator of my building when that happened. When I got to our office cafeteria, a group of people were watching the fire in the north tower, a few blocks directly north of us.
At 9:14 am, I sent this e-mail via Blackberry to my husband:
I saw it! I saw the second plane fly right into the south tower. We wee looking at the fire from the first crash, which we heard was a small plane. The second plane was a JET. It was a big plane, looked like a 727, AND IT WAS DELIBERATE. I can't tell you how upset I am.
http://angrytoyrobot.blogspot.com/20...other-one.html
The above, while not evidence, is interesting nonetheless. The person gives a rationalization for neither seeing nor hearing "the first one" despite being in position to do so, except when in an elevator, according to her. So, there was no first plane based on what she saw and heard and there was only a report of a small plane from second-hand sources. Nonetheless, without any basis for assuming "the first one" was a jet, she nonetheless describes what happened next as "the second one." We are, therefore, encountering a person who has been victimized by the psyop into thinking in terms of "the firest" and "the second" irrespective of her own account that contradicts the claim.
Needless to say, the source also disqualifies this account from being considered valid evidence of anything.
Bruce Kratofil
...both Rachel and I heard a plane. Looking over the southern tip of Manhatten, we could see the United jet roaring in, just skimming the tops of the buildings. Normally, when you see a jet that close, it is taking off or landing and is moving relatively slowly. This one was at full throttle. I remember yelling something like "What's he doing there?" but it went quickly behind us and was blocked from view by the buildings along the water. We didn't see the impact, but we could hear it and feel it.
http://www.bjkresearch.com/ny
The above is FUBAR as to both source and content, except as to possibly confirming some sort of hologram setting aside, for the moment, the source disqualification.
Adolfo Laurenti
“I saw this airplane coming from, I spotted around uh above the Statue of Liberty and coming in and coming down and down and my thoughts was that it was probably doing some form of reconocance [sic] over lower Manhattan to see what was coming in and when it got closer I thought well maybe its not a great idea to have a jet liner to deal reconocance over a you know populated area.”
Then it kept coming down and down and one point you had to realize, its really a matter of second but you had to realize that its not going to move up.
www.nationalstudent.tv (Web Archive copy)
National Student TV is not a valid source of witness statements, posters.
Seymour Levy
It was approximately 8:50 AM, on a spectacular picture perfect New York City September morning, as I ascended the steps of the Canal Street subway station in lower Manhattan. It was then that I noticed a crowd of spectators all pointing skyward... southward towards Manhattan's tip. Then I saw it. Thick black smoke and flames emanating from the top floors of one of the twin towers.
"I think a plane hit the building," commented of one of the bystanders. I thought to myself, could this be possible on such a crystal clear day? My next thoughts were, how are the firemen ever going to get to reach those trapped in this inferno? As I gaped in awe, I saw it happen. Another plane smashed into the second tower emitting a gigantic fire ball and explosion. Is this really happening? Is this some sort of special effect Hollywood production I'm seeing? A frenzy of police sirens, and fire truck horns erupted, coming from all directions racing downtown at a maddening pace.
http://americanhistory.si.edu/septem...ord.asp?ID=108
That story describes the person actually seeing a fireball and explosion. What else is new?
Jacalyn Lee
Jacalyn Lee was on her way to work a few blocks from the Trade Center shortly before 9 a.m. when a low-flying plane roared above her.
"I said to the guy next to me, "It's going to crash in. It's going to crash in.' Then it crashed in, Lee said. "You thought anybody who was in there had to be dead.
http://www.sfgate.com/today/0912_chron_nyscene.shtml
For all of you who might like to know what "hearsay" is. Hearsay is when one person quotes another person, as done above, thus totally invalidating the statment as evidence.
Then it crashed in, Lee said.
That is hearsay.
Mark Lewis
MICHAEL MCKEE, BLOOMBERG NEWS
I was in a taxi, heading down Manhattan’s West Side Highway for a conference at the World Trade Center when the first airliner flew over us and crashed into the North Tower. It was 8:50 a.m.
Traffic came to an immediate halt. I jumped from the cab, climbed the fence and ran three blocks to the trade center as it began falling apart. I interviewed witnesses, including two financial industry workers riding their bikes to work.
"It was like a mirage," said Mark Lewis, a systems analyst at Citigroup Inc.’s Salomon Smith Barney unit. "I looked up and saw (the plane) melting into the building."
Just then we heard a tremendous noise, looked up and saw another large passenger plane slam into the South Tower, 50 or 60 stories up. Glass and debris rained down as we ran into a nearby building.
The Beaumont Enterprise, September 12 2001
http://www.poynterextra.org/extra/pd...nterpriseW.pdf
In the above, note how the reporter's name is in all caps and the witness's name is in lower case. Hey Myriad, doesn't that mean something, according to you?
What it means to me is that we are dealing with a story written for a newspaper and therefore we are not encountering a valid witness statement.
Sherman Lewis
[Northwestern University] Trustee Sherman Lewis, whose office in the World Financial Center is across the street from the World Trade Center, was driving to work when he saw the plane crash into the building. He turned around and went home, said Ronald Vanden Dorpel, vice president for university development.
University Wire, September 21, 2001
The above appears to be triple hearsay and is completely FUBAR as a witness statement.
Dina Manieri
Dina Manieri, who works for Morgan Stanley in Exchange Place, saw the plane hit the second building.
"My God. It's worse than the devil. I think this is the Third World War . That somebody could do this on purpose . . ." she trailed off shaking and crying.
The Star-Ledger (Newark, New Jersey), September 11 2001
The above is not only totally hearsay, it doesn't even mention a plane.
EMT BRAD MANN
"We arrived shortly after the first plane hit the tower and began setting up EMS operations," says Mann. "By the time we realized what happened, we looked up and saw the second plane hit the second tower, and within a few minutes we were just running for our lives. It was like nothing I have ever seen in 15 years."
http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar...22,182,00.html
'Cigar Aficionado' is not a source for informaiton about 9/11 posters.
sheesh
Assistant FBI Director Barry Mawn
I could see the north tower from here and really a huge black hole which was still, you know, some fire and smoking on the north side of the tower.
My initial thought was this was a terrible accident, but I requested that these people start to respond to the World Trade complex and that I would meet them down there. We were observing the evacuation when we actually saw the second plane come down, flying north to south, actually turn around. And then we lost it momentarily behind the buildings, and then the next time we saw it, it was headed straight for the south tower.
http://www-cgi.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0202/18/lt.17.html
This one comes from CNN and is not, therefore, a valid source. Nonetheless, it is from a person with a big title. This one is intriguing. I will not count it right now because it is hearsay. But, I'd be willing to discuss this one with posters here and, perhaps, do a little research into the background of this FBI official.
