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R.Mackey said:
The entire load-bearing structure was concrete.

You have a funny way of saying "I was wrong, sorry, I'll be more careful in the future."
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I'm so sorry, Ryan. I miss about 30-40 sorrys in one day. What happens here?

I mean, it's not my fault if NIST for example was confused, and the underlying habits that lead to it are nearly unbreakable.

Now we need to see all the steel buildings that totally collapsed due to fire. I'm sure you have some pictures. Thank you!
 
R.Mackey said:
Also, the fuel wasn't falling in static air. Some was entrained behind parts of the aircraft or bits of the building. Others were accelerated by the blast.
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- entrained behind the confetti that might be small enough to be decelerated enough to fall into the shafts instead of traveling through the gypsum wallboard.
- accelerated by the blast which it has to escape not to be burnt
- passing the cabins at B1 - vaporized and unburnt
- to explode at B2 and B3 within 6-12 seconds after the impact and to demolish the local shafts in the lobby

Brilliant!

What's about floor 21?
 
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achimspok said:
That's right. We discussed it some posts above. The 3psi overpressure in some imaginary cube of gas above the damaged shaft could probably - if no pressure gets lost and enough pressure can follow from the impact floors - compress the air in the express shafts down to 77. If doors where blown out then less that far.
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You're talking about hydrostatics, which is completely missing the point. The atmosphere was moving, which accelerated liquid bodies moving through it. You're assuming that there was a deflagration, leaving behind some static atomised fuel in still air, which then fell down the lift shafts under the influence of gravity alone. That's a ridiculous oversimplification of the real situation. The dynamics of a fuel-air explosion aren't so insignificant that you can simply pretend they don't exist, and that's what you're doing.

Dave
 
achimspok said:
- entrained behind the confetti that might be small enough to be decelerated enough to fall into the shafts instead of traveling through the gypsum wallboard.
- accelerated by the blast which it has to escape not to be burnt
- passing the cabins at B1 - vaporized and unburnt
- to explode at B2 and B3 within 6-12 seconds after the impact and to demolish the local shafts in the lobby

Brilliant!

What's about floor 21?
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Jet fuel vapor was reported the entire height of the towers and burn injuries support those reports.
 
achimspok said:
OH! "AA11" hit during a banking turn at 493mph the center column lateral at 0° and vertical at 4° (btw the NIST numbers are wrong).
"UA175" hit at about 583mph perfectly leveled out of a turning power dive and cross wind at max. 1° vertical and less than 8° lateral a little bit off center.
"AA77" leveled and turned at about 530mph between Navy Annex and VDOT mast, dived down the hill, downed the 40ft light poles straight into a bankkeepers office at radio elevation 4ft or something?
No, I wouldn't be afraid that the plane could miss the target. We are good in such things, you know? ... not in Cessnas but ...
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... but in flight simulators, where they had lots of time to practice. Both had commercial pilot licenses, meaning they had used at least flight school's 737 simulators.

And, well, the B-25 Mitchell that impacted the Empire State Building did so without even pretending! It must not be that hard :p
 
All of the fuel....and there wasn't that much of it and most of that went up in the giant fireball would obviously have been nstantly atomised by the shattering impact with the perimeter braced-box columns. Have you ever tried to ignite only a piece of a contiguous cloud of atomised jet fuel vapour?

No I think the fuel was all gone in a few seconds and zero went down the lift shaft.
 
I think all this talk about fuel is just trying to...hell I don't know. I really can't see why this matters at all.
 
bill smith said:
All of the fuel....and there wasn't that much of it and most of that went up in the giant fireball would obviously have been nstantly atomised by the shattering impact with the perimeter braced-box columns. Have you ever tried to ignite only a piece of a contiguous cloud of atomised jet fuel vapour?

No I think the fuel was all gone in a few seconds and zero went down the lift shaft.
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Pound for pound, jet fuel turned to vapor is a more powerful explosive than TNT or any of the others.

So if only one gallon of the 6,000 gallons made it down to the basement. At 6 pounds per gallon, that's the equal of lots of TNT.
 
TexasJack said:
Here's a video that debunks the nonsense. The demonstration comes near the end.

http://www.myvideo.de/watch/1089925/Pentagon_Attack_Analysis_Zembla
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I can't see that video but judging by the URL you probably mean this one (starting at minute 27:40 approx.):

Google Video This video is not hosted by the ISF, the ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


(Hope I've learned how to put GV videos.)
 
achimspok said:
Probably yes. ...at a certain point in time.
Because of the special features of the attacks. Not one of the planes was "pointed at" you know? ...but hit with substantial certainty - not to use the word precision. All of these planes flew far over VNE! No muslim hijacker would endanger his mission by endanger his bomb. No muslim hijacker could have known about radar holes and war games. Hani wouldn't circle, he would point at, right?

...to blame someone! No one would buy the story without IMAGES of the ENEMY.

Dead. ...in the buildings.

Not just about the black boxes. ...about everything. About baggage, about DNA, about serial numbers simply about everything left.

That's what they did. ...at least it seems so. Have you heard about the "AA11" black boxes or the "UA175" black boxes? Or the serial number of the "AA77" FDR? Or Warren Stutts second FOIA request regarding the FDR? I still haven't check it but I wonder why all data in the new readout are displaced regarding to the subframe counter. I wonder about the statement of "4-8 additional seconds" due to the uncompleted dataframe. The uncompleted dataframe contains max 4 seconds. I wonder about the total lack of warnings in the first FDR. Now we have at least GroundProximity for 17 seconds and Overspeed for the last 24 seconds. So it seems everything gets better and better.
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So if the aircraft were the ones tha took off that day with the passengers and crew, why bother with anything else? Why would you need a fake passport? Why destroy the black boxes if they had genuine flight data for the day?

Your theory has more holes than a swiss cheese?

Who controlled the aircraft?
How did they do it?
Where were they when they did it?
Did they have line of sight?
If not how could they be sure the aircraft would hit?
Why was it any weasier than having fanatics determined to kill themselvesthat also had commercial licenses?
 
pgimeno said:
I can't see that video but judging by the URL you probably mean this one (starting at minute 27:40 approx.):

Google Video This video is not hosted by the ISF, the ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


(Hope I've learned how to put GV videos.)
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Yes that's it, although the one I posted is only 9 minutes long, hence that's why I stated at the end of the video. But your time stamp is correct on the one you embedded.
 
BigAl said:
Pound for pound, jet fuel turned to vapor is a more powerful explosive than TNT or any of the others.

So if only one gallon of the 6,000 gallons made it down to the basement. At 6 pounds per gallon, that's the equal of lots of TNT.
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There is also something about fuel-air explosives having a different peak pressure/duration than regular ones. It makes them much better driving explosives, and more damaging to e.g. drywall.
 
Dave Rogers said:
You're talking about hydrostatics, which is completely missing the point. The atmosphere was moving, which accelerated liquid bodies moving through it. You're assuming that there was a deflagration, leaving behind some static atomised fuel in still air, which then fell down the lift shafts under the influence of gravity alone. That's a ridiculous oversimplification of the real situation. The dynamics of a fuel-air explosion aren't so insignificant that you can simply pretend they don't exist, and that's what you're doing.

Dave
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Where would your dynamic burning fuel stop moving? It's not some shockwave because a shockwave wouldn't transport much material I guess. So what if your dynamic model produces a higher pressure in the lower section of the shaft? Right, it moves on - backwards.
Given the fact that there were 10 or 20 times more local elevator shafts with door on each floor and pits at 78 I would expect the entire upper section - upwards and downwards - in flames, blown out windows, hundreds of victims and so on. Since all these doors had the very same "stability" how does your dynamic model blow up B2 and B3 without toasting Cruz and Griffith in express shaft 50 probably for minutes because they had to wait for rescuers?
 
Toke said:
There is also something about fuel-air explosives having a different peak pressure/duration than regular ones. It makes them much better driving explosives, and more damaging to e.g. drywall.
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Yup and related to thermobaric munitions. A few PSI spread over entire walls does lots of damage dot are useless against steel beams.

This is my favorite video of the effects of a vapor-air explosion 60 sec.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cQOUuJ1DWI
 
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