Pitbulls. Do they have a bad rep?

[slingblade]

Essentially....dogs good, people bad.

 

[Furcifer]

1. Which dogs must be muzzled? Is it based on size, breed or previous history?
2. How will it be enforced? In my experience in several states, Animal Control has very little funding--they have enough trouble performing their duties as it is.
3. Again, depending on your answer, what about responsible pet owners with well controlled dogs? Will they have to muzzle their dogs in public?

1.
* A pit bull terrier
* A Staffordshire bull terrier
* An American Staffordshire terrier
* An American pit bull terrier
* A dog that has an appearance and physical characteristics substantially similar to any of those dogs.
The onus is on the owner to provide information showing the dog isn't a pitbull or have a vet certification proving otherwise.
2.
police officers, special constables, First Nations Constables, auxiliary police, municipal law enforcement officers, OSPCA inspectors and OSPCA agents are all designated as peace officers
3.
nope.

I should point out this is part of Ontario's BSL It sucks, but the legislation can be changed and compromise means taking the good with the bad.

It's only been a few years so it's hard to say what effect this has had. I haven't seen a rise in Rotties or any other breed, but that's not to say it isn't occurring. Time will tell I suppose. I'll have to look for more information.

 

[Halfcentaur]

I have a pitbull, she is half colby, half brindle. I've known her since she was born, but she was a friend's dog the first 3 years of her life. Without a doubt, I can say she is one of the most good natured and laid back sweethearts of a dog I've encountered. Many people don't realize she is a pit, because of her colby looks, and everyone agrees she is one of the most good natured dogs they've met. She is very good with strangers, the only behavioral issues she has are her fear of strange inanimate objects, and her lack of confidence in general. I don't think she understands the power she has in her, it's pitiful to see her roll over and surrender to a 6 week old kitten, but she does.

I can't blame people though for the attitude towards pits. I get nervous around other pits myself. It's a shame they get so much bad press, but they do have a lot of power. I don't think they are any more aggressive than other breeds, I think they just have the ability to damage things with much less effort, so when they do strike out, it's going to be devastating. And the culture of dog fighting that encourages aggression in their breed adds to the chance you will find a pit that has aggressive tendencies.

 

[Furcifer]

So far this is what I found:

"According to the humane society's study, there were 5,428 reported dog bites in 2005, the year the ban came into effect. Here are the numbers since then":

* 2006 - 5,360
* 2007 - 5,492
* 2008 - 5,463
* 2009 - 5,345

So ,yah the number of bites not affected. As the CTV article notes the numbers don't mean that much, they don't know how many dogs their are in the province, they don't know how serious the bites are or were etc. I can't find any information on fatalities either.

It's not about breeds, it's about dangerous dogs and bad owners. End of story.

 

[ugot2bekidding]

Nice post, thanks for sharing your experiences.

OK, first, you seem to contradict your self. You acknowledge the bad owners, but then you go on to blame the breed. I think that's OK if you believe dogs have instincts that can't be overcome by training.

Do you believe that? I suspect you don't, but at the same time I'm lead to believe that from your post. Just saying.

I don't think it's contradictory. PBs weren't bred for human aggression. From what I've read, if a PB was overly aggressive towards humans, they were kept out of the gene pool due to the potential harm to the dogman's family. On the other hand, they were selectively bred for dog aggression. I suppose you can breed the aggression out of them, but how many generations would it take, realistically, considering the breed is over a hundred years old? Does the age of the breed even matter (I don't know, I'm not an expert)?

Second, I have to question you on your own conduct. Frankly you seem to have been involved in many altercations for you not to be doing something wrong. I'm not trying to lay blame on you, but as an observation it doesn't make sense to me that you would be involved in some 5 different attacks, when I've never been in 1 with my dogs. That's just an observation and I'm not trying to put you on the spot here, but from a purely statistical standpoint you seem to be unlucky. This being a skeptics website "unlucky" doesn't really exist. But I'm open to you falling into that 1 percentile

I have had my dog for 13 years. I walk him 3-4 times a day, and prior to my move last year, there was a dog park around the corner from where I lived where he would frolic for at least an hour every day.. Most of his life was spent in a dense urban environment (Philadelphia, PA) where you couldn't walk a block without running into some other dog. During his lifetime, he has probably come into contact with hundreds of dogs, so five attacks isn't as statistically improbable as it first sounds. Then factor in the high concentration of PBs in these areas, and four attacks in 13 years might be 'unlucky' but not so mysterious.

Last thing, you mention "epic" rates of owners in your area. The first thing that came to my mind is that there is talk of banning the breed and this is just a "hoarding" response. That might be another reason to not employ BSL's, the "I want what I can't have" response people might have. This would of course result in more crappy owners having dogs that when they do get in a fight they cause the maximum amount of damage.

As I said, I'm not sure banning would be a good idea.

ETA: I'm a n00b at multi-quoting

 

[ugot2bekidding]

That's a good point, there's no way it was an APBT at 100 pounds, certainly not pure bred. More likely a Corso or even an American BD than an pit.

As GreNME pointed out, it was probably an inaccurate assessment due to the heat of the moment. However, I have seen it on more than one occasion and it is huge. It definitely was not a Cane Corso...I know what they look like because I own one. (here is a pic of my pooch):

 

[Cleon]

Let me try to summarize the points I brought into the discussion:
1. PBs have a bad, undeserved reputation.
2. In my experience, for what it's worth, PBs owned by responsible owners who are knowledgeable about raising and training any dog, have very sweet dogs who are no more dangerous than any other dog of equal size.
3. BSL is an ineffective solution to dangerous dogs. It leads to a whole host of new problems, and unfairly punishes responsible dog owners.
4. There are better, more effective means to address the public health safety issues concerning dangerous dogs--which includes bite wound morbidity, as well as dog attack fatalities.
5. Most dog bites are provoked.
6. Neutering pets is only one small part of the solution, for a multitude of reasons.

This. And a half.

 

[ugot2bekidding]

Again, I am sorry for what happened, but signals were missed, and the woman was most likely an uneducated pet owner. When I advised fellow dog owners that my dog was friendly, and the 2 dogs went nose to nose, I watched carefully for any body language that might alert me that the other dog was going to attack. I was always able to see it and lead my dog away(with my Gentle Leader) before the other dog was able to bite my dog.

The were no obvious signals. She was wagging her tail low and looked like she wanted to play. The instant my dog got in range she attacked...no growl, stiff posture, nothing. It's true that not all dogs are dog friendly, but my fear with PBs is that they have the ability to do a lot more damage to your dog than most other breeds. Remember it took me five minutes to get her off, and then only because she attempted a better grip. There was blood everywhere, and my dog let out a cry/moan so loud that people came out of their houses and cars stopped...jees I'd rather not think out it.

Anyhoo...

Your neighborhood seems to be full of people who should not own dogs.

I agree! I think, ultimately, opinions on PBs are highly dependent on which part of the world you hail from. From over here, PBs look like a problem...your mileage may vary.

Again, as previously discussed, if all the PBs vanished from the face of the Earth tomorrow, then another breed would take it's place.

True. And as they shape this breed over time, it would probably end up looking just like our current pitbulls due to it being the ultimate form factor for dog-fighting...low center of gravity, powerful jaws, wide chest, and extreme agility.

When it comes to people aggression, there are breeds that are much worse but you don't hear about them because they aren't as popular. For instance the Fila Brasiliero (in Brazilian dog shows, the judges don't even touch them, and I think they are allowed to have two handlers in the ring). Also, the Caucasian Ovcharka (according to Wiki:"They are probably the most aggressive natural guard dog bred in domesticity and truly second to none in bellicosity towards strangers. Unless properly socialised, they may exhibit ferocious and unmanageable tendencies").

 

[Furcifer]

On the other hand, they were selectively bred for dog aggression. I suppose you can breed the aggression out of them, but how many generations would it take, realistically, considering the breed is over a hundred years old? Does the age of the breed even matter (I don't know, I'm not an expert)?

The things is there are nice pitbulls and they seem to always end up in the hands of good owners. I'm not so sure the instinctual response is that strong in the breed they can't be properly trained. In the hands of someone who actually takes the time they're like little balls of clay rolled in fuzz.

Nice pup. And yah, I'm not quite convinced the BSL's in Ontario will have anywhere near the effect that stricter laws and enforcement will have. It's just that they came in at the same time and now it's going to be hard to determine cause and effect.

 

[ugot2bekidding]

Seriously, you're exhibiting classic selection bias. The United Kennel Club history on the breed: " Sometime during the nineteenth century, dog fanciers in England, Ireland and Scotland began to experiment with crosses between Bulldogs and Terriers, looking for a dog that combined the gameness of the terrier with the strength and athleticism of the Bulldog. The result was a dog that embodied all of the virtues attributed to great warriors: strength, indomitable courage, and gentleness with loved ones. Immigrants brought these bull and terrier crosses to the United States. The American Pit Bull Terrier’s many talents did not go unnoticed by farmers and ranchers who used their APBTs as catch dogs for semi-wild cattle and hogs, to hunt, to drive livestock, and as family companions. Today, the American Pit Bull Terrier continues to demonstrate its versatility, competing successfully in Obedience, Tracking, Agility and Weight Pulls, as well as Conformation.

The United Kennel Club was the first registry to recognize the American Pit Bull Terrier. UKC founder C. Z. Bennett assigned UKC registration number 1 to his own APBT, Bennett’s Ring, in 1898."

But hey, continue to scour the web for random pages that simply confirm what you want to hear, while I'll continue to actually refer to the authorities on the breed standard, who actually have kept historical records of their registered breeds.

I read ( a long time ago, sorry. I don't know where) that Bennett formed the UKC with the sole purpose of registering his PB since the AKC would not (due to their reputation as fighting dogs). If this is true (indeed, his PB was the first dog registered in the UKC, as your quote shows), then I would have to take their version of PB history/temperament with a generous grain of salt.

ETA: I see you addressed this issue, to an extent, on page 6. Sorry, I usually read every page before I post, but I have been busy and couldn't resist giving my 2 cents.

 

[Emet]

The were no obvious signals. She was wagging her tail low and looked like she wanted to play. The instant my dog got in range she attacked...no growl, stiff posture, nothing. It's true that not all dogs are dog friendly, but my fear with PBs is that they have the ability to do a lot more damage to your dog than most other breeds. Remember it took me five minutes to get her off, and then only because she attempted a better grip. There was blood everywhere, and my dog let out a cry/moan so loud that people came out of their houses and cars stopped...jees I'd rather not think out it.

(my bolding)

Generally speaking, a low wagging tail signifies apprehension. It would be futile to speculate what may have happened. Just remember that dogs 'learn" what works. If a dog (over time) begins a series of escalating behaviors until one "works", in the future that particular dog will be more inclined to start with what works. I am again truly sorry for what you and your canine companion animal experienced.

I'm not quite convinced the BSL's in Ontario will have anywhere near the effect that stricter laws and enforcement will have.

(my bolding)

In the several states I have resided in (USAland), enforcement was ... lacking.

Then factor in the high concentration of PBs in these areas, and four attacks in 13 years might be 'unlucky' but not so mysterious.

Agreed. Sounds like a bad neighborhood full of folks who choose a breed or type of dog for all the wrong reasons. Those types of folks often obtain their dogs from backyard breeders, and do nothing to train their dogs properly.

That's a good point, there's no way it was an APBT at 100 pounds, certainly not pure bred. More likely a Corso or even an American BD than an pit.

Stop blaming American BDs!







Gone, but not forgotten...

 

[roger]

I'm typing this with a scarred left wrist compliments of a pit bull.

I'm excellent with dogs. I was working for the census and the dog got me. That family is lucky I'm anti-litigious. I'm a fast healer and this is 11 weeks and I still have scars.

I never had anything against pit bulls before but I'm wary of them today.

I have a scarred right wrist due to a different breed.

It doesn't make any sense to me to now be wary about that breed. That dog, yes, if it was still alive.

 

[roger]

Now that we are 10 pages into this, go back and read the CDC report. Note how they talk about "pit bulls" (with the quotes) not not about "rottweilers" (they don't put quotes around that breed), or any other breed. They point out that many different actual breeds get lumped into the grouping of "pit bull". Read the thread, and see the claims of 100lb pit bulls. I have a high conformance APBT (the brown one in my avatar) and she is 57 lbs (at the large end of the spectrum) and barely comes up to my knee). We had a dog attack in a dog park back in VA. I knew the dog - an English Bulldog - about as far away from a pit bull as you can get. How did it get reported in the papers? Yup. "Pit bull attack". Go back and read the thread and see how people say that pit bulls aren't more vicious, they are just so big that they do undue damage. Then realize that at best a pit is a mid-sized dog. Our foster lab puppy was bigger than both of our dogs.

It's the summer of the shark.

Meanwhile, like the vet above, every vet and vet tech we have visited have said how happy they are to work with pits, because they can do any painful procedure to them and not worry about the dog. They do have to worry about the dangerous licker, and the 'happy tail', but that's about it.

And, this goes back a number of pages, but yes, I got a pit because I wanted a loving dog. Actually, I went to the rescue to get a loving dog. Koa is the dog that both wunky and I fell in love with, and vice versa. At the time we knew nothing about them. I wouldn't say I'd only get a pit in the future, but it is definitely a top breed for me, for it's gentleness, happiness, great amount of love, and intelligence.

 

[Furcifer]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_407364c4fa0e339e7a.jpg[/qimg]
Gone, but not forgotten...

Cute. I've always liked the bully breeds.

The American Bulldog has to be taking a lot of heat up here since the BSL came into effect. I think they are most often mistaken for pits, although having had a white boxer I find anything white that looks remotely like a bulldog get mistaken for a pit.

Even a white Great Dane. On my life I can't tell you how many people asked if he was a Pitbull. Those are the people you want to slap. Aside from the colour there is nothing similar between a dane and a Pit, stature, musculature, muzzle, head shape, nothing.

 

[Bmorepitbull]

I had typed up a series of responses that was specific to each specific poster, but it took to long and I failed to copy paste before continuing, so I'm going to paste the long and short of my conversation. Basically the bite stick is unneccessary because either it should be required of all terriers (which it isn't), all bully breeds (which it isn't), or all dogs with equal or stronger bite strengths (which it also isn't). With all this having been said, the myth of the bite stick is only specific to pitbulls. Aside from the fact that most people can't identify pitbulls, if you are willing to admit that there is nothing special about the breed in specific, why should it require a specific tool? No one has yet answered this question, and it is pertinent to the whole argument.

 

[GlennB]

I had typed up a series of responses that was specific to each specific poster, but it took to long and I failed to copy paste before continuing, so I'm going to paste the long and short of my conversation. Basically the bite stick is unneccessary because either it should be required of all terriers (which it isn't), all bully breeds (which it isn't), or all dogs with equal or stronger bite strengths (which it also isn't). With all this having been said, the myth of the bite stick is only specific to pitbulls. Aside from the fact that most people can't identify pitbulls, if you are willing to admit that there is nothing special about the breed in specific, why should it require a specific tool? No one has yet answered this question, and it is pertinent to the whole argument.

Wouldn't you be better off arguing this point on sites that are wrong about the 'break stick' issue and where a lot of PB owners might gain from your wisdom? Who is a non PB owner to believe, the specialist sites or you? As long as the specialists are getting it wrong then this so-called myth will continue to be propagated.

If you've travelled in Pit Bull circles for any length of time, you've probably heard mention of something termed a "breaking stick" or "break stick". This is a safety item every Pit Bull owner should possess

http://www.realpitbull.com/breakstick.html

Why Should Responsible Pit Bull Owners Have a Break Stick? ....... This is the safest, easiest, and most effective way to stop a fight.

http://www.pbrc.net/breaksticks.html

Each owner should have a break stick or a comparable piece of wood or pole available.

http://dogs.about.com/od/dogbreeds/a/pit_bull_faq.htm

A break stick is a device made to be inserted in the mouth of a pit bull (behind the molars) to gently pry open and release its grip on an object or another animal. This is a safety item every pit bull owner should possess.

http://www.bullydomain.com/article/421/how-to-use-the-break-stick

 

[Bmorepitbull]

My full intention is to correct not only the arguments mentioned here, but the arguments that other (even so called "professionals") may have made. It all boils down to one basic question though, especially here. Despite the hypocricy (or in spite the hypocricy of some members here... cough... glennb.... cough) that there is nothing special about a pitbull jaw, but then turning around and suggesting that there is, is the root of a major part of the problem. Clearing suggesting the nature of the breeds which compromise a pitbull has had no effect, nor has talking about biological urges, so clearly the myths about the jaws of pitbulls, etc. are at the root of it. Until you can prove the source of such myths true, you have hereby disproved all myths. It's like me saying there is a myth of all tall people being lumberjacks, and lumberjacks are violent. Never mind the fact that I have no proof that all lumberjacks are violent, but I also have no proof that all tall people are lumberjacks. It's the same thing as saying that all pitbulls are aggressive (never mind that there are different types of aggression, never less different types of which pitbulls are more prone). It's then like me taking that further and saying that all pits are people aggressive. There is no proof for the first, and so the second is based purely on unproven assumptions. Without stating reasons for why things such as a breakstick are necessary for a particular breed they are either avoiding the question, proving it is not, or do not, proving that it is not.

 

[Furcifer]

Basically the bite stick is unneccessary because either it should be required of all terriers (which it isn't), all bully breeds (which it isn't), or all dogs with equal or stronger bite strengths (which it also isn't). With all this having been said, the myth of the bite stick is only specific to pitbulls.

Like I said, I don't think it's a myth. I think it's a result of teaching the dog to bite and hold onto stuff and poor training. Maybe not even poor training as much as being irresponsible.

I did a lot of work with my dogs and they were well trained, but I needed a leash. They were well socialized and they loved people and kids and other dogs. They wanted to play and there's only so much you can expect from a dog before they were off being dogs.

I don't know if I could ever train them to be in public off a leash. I tried, but if I was going somewhere I'd bring a leash. Most of time I'd end up needing it.

Isn't this kind of like this "break stick"? I'm not saying it's specific to Pitbulls, I'm saying it's specific to dogs that latch on and you can't break off easily. That happens to be Pitbull because there are a lot of them, they do like to latch on and they're big enough to make it very difficult to get off otherwise.

I mentioned before that we have muzzle laws now and I think they work. I think if you're worried about your Pitbull or any other dog biting another dog then you should muzzle it. And if your dog gets bit the authorities should be able to enforce the law and you should be able to recover damages.

At least in public. At home you may need one of these sticks, but frankly I think if you need one you've got issues.

 

[GreNME]

Wouldn't you be better off arguing this point on sites that are wrong about the 'break stick' issue and where a lot of PB owners might gain from your wisdom? Who is a non PB owner to believe, the specialist sites or you? As long as the specialists are getting it wrong then this so-called myth will continue to be propagated.

<quote-mining snipped>

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Really, it's like you've moved from bastardizing "gameness" to bastardizing "specialist" in your poor attempt to argue something you've already gone to great lengths showing you have little actual clue about other than emotional arguing.

 

[GreNME]

I read ( a long time ago, sorry. I don't know where) that Bennett formed the UKC with the sole purpose of registering his PB since the AKC would not (due to their reputation as fighting dogs). If this is true (indeed, his PB was the first dog registered in the UKC, as your quote shows), then I would have to take their version of PB history/temperament with a generous grain of salt.

ETA: I see you addressed this issue, to an extent, on page 6. Sorry, I usually read every page before I post, but I have been busy and couldn't resist giving my 2 cents.

Yeah, the history of the bully breeds is a fairly intertwined with each other coming from Britain. From what can be told given different accounts it was actually the banning of bull-baiting that led to the circumstances behind split in heritage between the bull dog and what would be known as the pit bull. While, yes, the APBT was used in dog fighting it wasn't the only breed to be used so by people in America, it was just the only one that didn't already belong to a breed standard and thus got the lousy stigma. Its baiting skills were actually what led to it being bred into the dogo Argentino as a boar hunter (bred into Cordoba lines, to lower aggression and work better in groups). I find it interesting how little is found mentioned in histories of dog fighting that exclude the other bully and mastiff breeds that have been regularly used in fighting along with the APBT, and by "interesting" I mean "revisionist" or "dishonest" to be frank.