Pitbulls. Do they have a bad rep?

[Furcifer]

snip.. Also having worked at a shelter, I can tell you that there are too many unwanted dogs in the world to bring a liter of unwanted dogs into it.

tl;dr

jk

On the break stick and the websites: I mentioned I'd never heard of them until this thread. I did google them, and they appear to be suggested by a few Pitbull "fancier" sites, and they appear to be reputable sites dedicated to the breed.

My personal thought on them is this, if I owned a Pitbull, and I was training it to grab and hold something, like a rope or a toy or perhaps another animal, it's then and only then I'd consider having one.

I'm saying basically they're for what they say they are, prying apart two dogs fighting. They seem to admit, without admitting it, that you trained your dog to not let go and now you want it to and it won't and you need to and you need to fast and it won't because that's what you wanted it to do in the first place.

That's the feeling I get. And I say that because a lot of people I know that have had Pitbulls haven't been the best trainers. They encouraged the dog to be aggressive, but only so much. They want that dog that could tear apart another dog in an instant, but only when they allowed it. As long as they were present the dog was OK, but it gets out, or off the leash and then, like the last poster said, every cat in the neighborhood winds up dead. Then they say "Oh, well that never happened before".

I'm sorry, but I've been around dogs, and they don't "suddenly" turn unless they are hurt or they have distemper. Otherwise there's always some sign of aggression.

 

[Bmorepitbull]

tl;dr

jk

While the relevance of your former use of the term tl;dr seems irrelevant at this point, I am forever trying to expand not only my actual knowledge of vocabulary, but also my internet vocabulary, so if you don't mind my asking, what exactly did you mean when you said tl;dr?

On the break stick and the websites: I mentioned I'd never heard of them until this thread.

I could be wrong, but I'm fairly sure that you are the one who has credited themselves with being a veterinarian. It really surprises me that you could go through veterinary school, let along however many years of practicing, without hearing of a break stick. No offense.

I did google them, and they appear to be suggested by a few Pitbull "fancier" sites, and they appear to be reputable sites dedicated to the breed.

I have been affiliated with both groups that are affiliated with the breed both on and off line. I find that especially online, you are more prone to bad information and to groups/individuals that uphold pitbull myths though claiming to be advocates for the breed.

My personal thought on them is this, if I owned a Pitbull, and I was training it to grab and hold something, like a rope or a toy or perhaps another animal, it's then and only then I'd consider having one.

First of all I'd like to point out that there is a huge difference between the options that you gave. Teaching a dog to hold on to a rope toy and not let go is a game that many dog owners like to call tug. While they may eventually let go due to lose of grip or lack of strength, it's still a natural game for dogs to play. It derives from the biological need of wolves to fight with other pack members/other packs for their food. That need to tug is still present in the modern day dog. Let's assume for a second that you are speaking of an assailant or someone who does not belong in the dog's normal habitat (as I know this specifically was an issue earlier on). If you have trained your dog to attack invaders, then you would not/should not leave your dog outside unattended. This has nothing to do with breed, but rather responsible dog ownership, and especially responsibility that accompanies such training. As for your last example of animals, dogs in general are prey aggressive, anything they perceive as prey, they will chase/hunt/etc. This especially true within the terrier breed. They are bred to hunt small prey (even though in some instances the prey may be larger than the breed itself). As I stated before, I am currently also living with West Highland Terrier that belongs to my fiance's parents. She (a major runt, standing only 6" tall [being generous], by 10" wide [a rough guess]) Not only bosses my APBT around, but also shows more of a perpetuity to harm smaller creatures than my own dog does. This is not merely a "Napoleon complex", but rather the terrier in her coming out. She is specifically bred to go into small places, and more specifically underground, to trap and/or catch rodents. Even the AKC website says that these attributes are typical from terriers ranging to the size of West Highland Terrier, like Cottie, to the size of an Airedale Terrier. While an Airedale Terrier may be slimmer (as in less muscle mass than an APBT), they are still as tall as an APBT and they still possess the same personalities to go after other animals, including dogs and cats. This is not an attribute specific to APBTs or other bully breeds, but rather to the terrier group as a whole. I truly defy you to find a website that recommends a bite stick for any other terrier breed. The idea behind a bite stick rests behind a more than proven myth. Not to mention that APBT or APBT mix owners go above and beyond to socialize their animals, and to help others socialize their animals (especially in the case of adoption).

That's the feeling I get. And I say that because a lot of people I know that have had Pitbulls haven't been the best trainers. They encouraged the dog to be aggressive, but only so much.

Encouraging aggression in any breed of dog is a bad idea. Number one, you want your dog to be sociable. Number two, you want to avoid aggression directed towards humans or human directed violence (which occurs when an animal is unable to defend/attack a perceived threat and redirects that focus onto the handler), This type of behavior is either due to lack of corrections or due to praise when certain unwanted behaviors have occurred (rather consciously or unconsciously).

They want that dog that could tear apart another dog in an instant, but only when they allowed it.

Outside of someone who is training their dog for the purpose of fighting, I know of -NO- dog owner who wishes this upon their dog in any means what so ever, not even when it comes to defending themselves against an attacking dog.

As long as they were present the dog was OK, but it gets out, or off the leash and then, like the last poster said, every cat in the neighborhood winds up dead. Then they say "Oh, well that never happened before".

I could make several comments about the last poster. First, was the dog actually a pitbull. The sad fact about bully breed owners and bully breed mixes is that they don't actually know what kind of bully breed they have taken on. This means they don't know what needs to fulfill. Second of all you are right when you follow this comment up with the fact that dogs don't snap for no reason. Often times it is something that the "victim" or the owner missed. No dog attacks without giving warnings. It's biological nature not to want to put yourself in harms way unless you feel it necessary for your life.

I'm sorry, but I've been around dogs, and they don't "suddenly" turn unless they are hurt or they have distemper.

As I said previously, you're right, dog's don't just turn. However the reasons for them to "snap" are various (regardless the breed of dog, as I have demonstrated in my previous example). You simply list two of the hundreds of reasons that a dog has to snap. Most commonly it is because they have let their dog feel that they are in control of a certain possession or aspect of daily life. If a dog does not feel they are in control then they have no reason to snap. When it comes to dogs, you have to look at them (even though you may view them as your kids, family, etc.) as dogs. You can't analyze their behaviors as if they are humans, you must rather look at their biological needs and desires and find a way to fulfill them in a way that does not encourage or elicit "bad" behavior.

Otherwise there's always some sign of aggression.

There is no otherwise, there -IS- always a sign of aggression. Unfortunately, often (regardless the breed) the warning signs go unnoticed. Even if someone manages to notice the warning signs, they have no idea what to do when they are presented with one of these signals. So I highly encourage you to explore the possibility of ignorance (as with any breed), before you buy into the myths and victim stories of others.

***fixed quotes

 

[Bmorepitbull]

Furthermore 3bodyproblem, I think that your example of "most" 'pitbull' owner's training their dogs to be aggressive, I'd suggest that you fall into a bad ring. Most pitbull owners do the exact opposite and want to make sure that their pitbull is a shining example of how dogs should behave. Take myself for instance, I am currently working with my dog to become AKC good citizen certified. It is a test that is not easy for any breed. Yet the AKCGCA does not put restrictions on the breed of dog. It would seems to me that if certain breeds of dogs stood more of a chance than others to attack or cause serious damage/death, that the AKC would have prohibited these breeds from qualifying, yet alone applying for their GCA.

 

[Furcifer]

While the relevance of your former use of the term tl;dr seems irrelevant at this point, I am forever trying to expand not only my actual knowledge of vocabulary, but also my internet vocabulary, so if you don't mind my asking, what exactly did you mean when you said tl;dr?

too long ; didn't read (jk means joking, fyi ((for your information)))

I could be wrong, but I'm fairly sure that you are the one who has credited themselves with being a veterinarian. It really surprises me that you could go through veterinary school, let along however many years of practicing, without hearing of a break stick. No offense.

None taken, I'm not a vet, nor claimed to be one.

I have been affiliated with both groups that are affiliated with the breed both on and off line. I find that especially online, you are more prone to bad information and to groups/individuals that uphold pitbull myths though claiming to be advocates for the breed.

This begs the question of when myth becomes fact. However, this break stick is real and apparently illegal in some states. It's clearly associated with Pitbulls so i wouldn't call it a myth. I think however "every owner needing one" is overstated. "Every owner that's training their dog improperly" is probably more appropriate.

First of all I'd like to point out that there is a huge difference between the options that you gave. Teaching a dog to hold on to a rope toy and not let go is a game that many dog owners like to call tug. While they may eventually let go due to lose of grip or lack of strength, it's still a natural game for dogs to play. It derives from the biological need of wolves to fight with other pack members/other packs for their food. That need to tug is still present in the modern day dog. Let's assume for a second that you are speaking of an assailant or someone who does not belong in the dog's normal habitat (as I know this specifically was an issue earlier on). If you have trained your dog to attack invaders, then you would not/should not leave your dog outside unattended. This has nothing to do with breed, but rather responsible dog ownership, and especially responsibility that accompanies such training. As for your last example of animals, dogs in general are prey aggressive, anything they perceive as prey, they will chase/hunt/etc. This especially true within the terrier breed. They are bred to hunt small prey (even though in some instances the prey may be larger than the breed itself). As I stated before, I am currently also living with West Highland Terrier that belongs to my fiance's parents. She (a major runt, standing only 6" tall [being generous], by 10" wide [a rough guess]) Not only bosses my APBT around, but also shows more of a perpetuity to harm smaller creatures than my own dog does. This is not merely a "Napoleon complex", but rather the terrier in her coming out. She is specifically bred to go into small places, and more specifically underground, to trap and/or catch rodents. Even the AKC website says that these attributes are typical from terriers ranging to the size of West Highland Terrier, like Cottie, to the size of an Airedale Terrier. While an Airedale Terrier may be slimmer (as in less muscle mass than an APBT), they are still as tall as an APBT and they still possess the same personalities to go after other animals, including dogs and cats. This is not an attribute specific to APBTs or other bully breeds, but rather to the terrier group as a whole. I truly defy you to find a website that recommends a bite stick for any other terrier breed. The idea behind a bite stick rests behind a more than proven myth. Not to mention that APBT or APBT mix owners go above and beyond to socialize their animals, and to help others socialize their animals (especially in the case of adoption).

Agreed. I was trying to encompass in one sentence all the possible reasons for a Pitbull to bite and hold one even when the owner commands it not to. It boils down to improper training. It's only then you may need something to pry the dog off and that's why you need the break stick. The best selling ones are probably engraved with "World's Worst Owner!".

Encouraging aggression in any breed of dog is a bad idea. Number one, you want your dog to be sociable. Number two, you want to avoid aggression directed towards humans or human directed violence (which occurs when an animal is unable to defend/attack a perceived threat and redirects that focus onto the handler), This type of behavior is either due to lack of corrections or due to praise when certain unwanted behaviors have occurred (rather consciously or unconsciously).

Bingo! People think they can have both, a guard dog and a family pet. Most people aren't good enough trainers to do this. The real trainers don't do this, as I mentioned the Shutzhund trainer I went to had working dogs. Working dogs don't make good pets. But some fool gets a Pitbull and thinks they can have a fighting dog(that never fights)/family pet. It doesn't work like that.

Outside of someone who is training their dog for the purpose of fighting, I know of -NO- dog owner who wishes this upon their dog in any means what so ever, not even when it comes to defending themselves against an attacking dog.

How many dog owners do you know? Too many Rottie, Pitbull owners I know want a big tough dog that would win any fight it was in and everyone was scared of it, but they had total control over the animal. (I met this ex-con that had a Rottie that he kept telling me to not look in the eyes, it was a killer and was wanted in 5 states yada yada. About 20 seconds after I met it it was on it's back, then it got up, ran out got its chew toy and wanted to play tug. "Oh he must like you". No he's a big pussy cat. I say this because there are people that want these dogs to be mean and even they can't be. Dogs don't want to be mean, they want to play and please people)

I could make several comments about the last poster. First, was the dog actually a pitbull. The sad fact about bully breed owners and bully breed mixes is that they don't actually know what kind of bully breed they have taken on. This means they don't know what needs to fulfill. Second of all you are right when you follow this comment up with the fact that dogs don't snap for no reason. Often times it is something that the "victim" or the owner missed. No dog attacks without giving warnings. It's biological nature not to want to put yourself in harms way unless you feel it necessary for your life.

Yes agreed. I think I need to clarify something though. Next paragraph.

As I said previously, you're right, dog's don't just turn. However the reasons for them to "snap" are various (regardless the breed of dog, as I have demonstrated in my previous example). You simply list two of the hundreds of reasons that a dog has to snap. Most commonly it is because they have let their dog feel that they are in control of a certain possession or aspect of daily life. If a dog does not feel they are in control then they have no reason to snap. When it comes to dogs, you have to look at them (even though you may view them as your kids, family, etc.) as dogs. You can't analyze their behaviors as if they are humans, you must rather look at their biological needs and desires and find a way to fulfill them in a way that does not encourage or elicit "bad" behavior.

OK, when I said "snap" I meant "loco crazy" snap, not "nip". I think you think I meant "nip" instead of snap. I meant snap, lose it, suddenly go from Benji to Kujo snap.

There is no otherwise, there -IS- always a sign of aggression. Unfortunately, often (regardless the breed) the warning signs go unnoticed. Even if someone manages to notice the warning signs, they have no idea what to do when they are presented with one of these signals. So I highly encourage you to explore the possibility of ignorance (as with any breed), before you buy into the myths and victim stories of others.

Like I said, I've only heard of dogs going from absolute perfect dogs, never showing signs of aggression, to nipping at people because of injury or some mental defect. Otherwise there is some sign of aggression. Unless you're a shut in a did nothing to socialize your dog, you should be aware of and be correcting behavioral problems like those with food, or toys, or kids or small animals, or what ever. The only time you may be caught off guard is if they suddenly change due to mental defect or injury. Usually injuries that might make them snap are known by the owner, but I've seen dogs tough it out and not know they were injured until you touch them in the right spot or they start licking an area excessively.

 

[Furcifer]

Furthermore 3bodyproblem, I think that your example of "most" 'pitbull' owner's training their dogs to be aggressive, I'd suggest that you fall into a bad ring. Most pitbull owners do the exact opposite and want to make sure that their pitbull is a shining example of how dogs should behave. Take myself for instance, I am currently working with my dog to become AKC good citizen certified. It is a test that is not easy for any breed. Yet the AKCGCA does not put restrictions on the breed of dog. It would seems to me that if certain breeds of dogs stood more of a chance than others to attack or cause serious damage/death, that the AKC would have prohibited these breeds from qualifying, yet alone applying for their GCA.

You'd like to think so, heck I'd like to think so, but the proof is in the pudding. You can't argue away the fact that these dogs (pure pits or some bastard mix is neither here nor there) are involved in way too many attacks to say "Well most owners don't do that". The numbers certainly reflect my experience, I'd say 80% of the owners I've met have been horrible trainers, horrible owners in general.
The other 20% have been good owners and had excellent dogs. The breed attracts meatheads plain and simple. Present company not included

 

[Emet]

I could be wrong, but I'm fairly sure that you are the one who has credited themselves with being a veterinarian. It really surprises me that you could go through veterinary school, let along however many years of practicing, without hearing of a break stick. No offense.

Actually, I'm the vet with 25+ years of experience. I dropped out of this thread a while back. If you re-read my posts, you may find that I am in agreement with most of what you said (I could chime in again and point out a few errors in your medicine, but that would side-track the issue).

I dropped out because I grew tired of being bullied and snarked at by a dog trainer who purports to know more about veterinary medicine (and in perhaps a few instances current theory in canine behavior) than I do--not because I felt defeated, mind you--I simply found it not a worthwhile endeavor.

Let me try to summarize the points I brought into the discussion:
1. PBs have a bad, undeserved reputation.
2. In my experience, for what it's worth, PBs owned by responsible owners who are knowledgeable about raising and training any dog, have very sweet dogs who are no more dangerous than any other dog of equal size.
3. BSL is an ineffective solution to dangerous dogs. It leads to a whole host of new problems, and unfairly punishes responsible dog owners.
4. There are better, more effective means to address the public health safety issues concerning dangerous dogs--which includes bite wound morbidity, as well as dog attack fatalities.
5. Most dog bites are provoked.
6. Neutering pets is only one small part of the solution, for a multitude of reasons.

Offense accepted. (jk) (that's an old line from the TV show MASH). But as a vet, I serve my clients, their pets, and engage in public health issues. I deal with clients who may be individual owners, rescue organizations, breeders, and dog trainers. The subject of bite sticks will generally not come up in the course of an office visit. I would guess that many vets have never seen or heard of all the paraphernalia that is breed or type specific, unless they have been directly involved in rescue or various training modalities.

 

[GreNME]

Without getting into the longer back-and-forth on specifics from any of the posts since yesterday, I just wanted to comment on the following:

Let me try to summarize the points I brought into the discussion:
1. PBs have a bad, undeserved reputation.
2. In my experience, for what it's worth, PBs owned by responsible owners who are knowledgeable about raising and training any dog, have very sweet dogs who are no more dangerous than any other dog of equal size.
3. BSL is an ineffective solution to dangerous dogs. It leads to a whole host of new problems, and unfairly punishes responsible dog owners.
4. There are better, more effective means to address the public health safety issues concerning dangerous dogs--which includes bite wound morbidity, as well as dog attack fatalities.
5. Most dog bites are provoked.
6. Neutering pets is only one small part of the solution, for a multitude of reasons.

I agree with each of these. This is a fair and reasonable policy to go by regarding any breed, but when it comes to pit bulls and the thread topic in particular this list sums it up pretty well.

ETA: for #5, the only thing I would add is that unfortunately it's not always the target of a bite that provides the provocation, which is what has lent to the great amount of misunderstanding on the particular topic. But again, to get into the why's and wherefore's of that is another long tangent.

 

[Emet]

<snip>
ETA: for #5, the only thing I would add is that unfortunately it's not always the target of a bite that provides the provocation, which is what has lent to the great amount of misunderstanding on the particular topic. But again, to get into the why's and wherefore's of that is another long tangent.

I am in complete agreement with this statement.

 

[Senex]

I'm typing this with a scarred left wrist compliments of a pit bull.

I'm excellent with dogs. I was working for the census and the dog got me. That family is lucky I'm anti-litigious. I'm a fast healer and this is 11 weeks and I still have scars.

I never had anything against pit bulls before but I'm wary of them today.

 

[ugot2bekidding]

I don't have a problem with PBs as they relate to humans. I feel they have a bad rep because it's the kind of breed that tends to attract bad owners (as others have pointed out).

However, I do have a problem with PBs regarding their dog aggression...this is a breed that exists for one reason, and one reason only...to kill other dogs.

I have been attacked four times by PBs while walking my dog. On two of those occasions I was lucky in that those dogs were very submissive to their owners and retreated when the owners yelled.

Another time, I ran into someone walking a female PB (leashed). The owner said she was friendly so I let my dog approach her. The instant my dog got within range, and with no warning whatsoever, the PB furiously clamped down on his muzzle. For five minutes, while my dog moaned in agony, I tried everything I could to make her release...I kicked her and punched her so hard that I dislocated my thumb and I had what felt like bursitis in my shoulder for two weeks after. Nothing. Finally, she tried to rearrange her grip and we were able to pull them apart. This happened five years ago, and my dog still has scars.

The last incident happened about four months ago, and I was so furious I almost came here to start a thread about banning pitbulls. As I'm walking my dog, a woman comes around the corner with a PB. This dog looked like it was +100lbs and the woman looked maybe 120 tops. Just as I turn to go the opposite direction and say to myself "oh great" I hear the lady scream. I turn to see her on the ground being dragged towards me! Naturally, she let go of the leash. Fortunately, a passerby jumped out of his car and helped me take the PB off my dog. I hate to think of how this would have turned out if he hadn't been there ( I had a knife out and was fully prepared to stab this dog.../shudder ).

Keep in mind that my dog has been attacked by other breeds, but it was trivial. He got into a fight with a Boxer, for instance, but I was able to pull them apart single-handedly (one with each arm) and hold them apart until the owner came. It's not so easy with PB...they are built differently, with a low center of gravity, and a strong instinct to kill other dogs.

Also, keep in mind that in some areas, PBs have reached epidemic porportions. Last year, I moved to a new neighborhood to be closer to work. Within two weeks, I counted 20+ PBs within the four blocks it takes me to walk to work. I see more all the time, but I have stopped counting.

Something needs to be done, but I don't know if banning them is the solution. For one thing, what would we do with all the PBs currently in existence? Euthanize them? At this point, I would be happy with a law requiring muzzles for PBs in public because I'm really getting tired of walking my dog in fear.

 

[Furcifer]

I don't have a problem with PBs as they relate to humans. I feel they have a bad rep because it's the kind of breed that tends to attract bad owners (as others have pointed out).

However, I do have a problem with PBs regarding their dog aggression...this is a breed that exists for one reason, and one reason only...to kill other dogs.

I have been attacked four times by PBs while walking my dog. On two of those occasions I was lucky in that those dogs were very submissive to their owners and retreated when the owners yelled.

Another time, I ran into someone walking a female PB (leashed). The owner said she was friendly so I let my dog approach her. The instant my dog got within range, and with no warning whatsoever, the PB furiously clamped down on his muzzle. For five minutes, while my dog moaned in agony, I tried everything I could to make her release...I kicked her and punched her so hard that I dislocated my thumb and I had what felt like bursitis in my shoulder for two weeks after. Nothing. Finally, she tried to rearrange her grip and we were able to pull them apart. This happened five years ago, and my dog still has scars.

The last incident happened about four months ago, and I was so furious I almost came here to start a thread about banning pitbulls. As I'm walking my dog, a woman comes around the corner with a PB. This dog looked like it was +100lbs and the woman looked maybe 120 tops. Just as I turn to go the opposite direction and say to myself "oh great" I hear the lady scream. I turn to see her on the ground being dragged towards me! Naturally, she let go of the leash. Fortunately, a passerby jumped out of his car and helped me take the PB off my dog. I hate to think of how this would have turned out if he hadn't been there ( I had a knife out and was fully prepared to stab this dog.../shudder ).

Keep in mind that my dog has been attacked by other breeds, but it was trivial. He got into a fight with a Boxer, for instance, but I was able to pull them apart single-handedly (one with each arm) and hold them apart until the owner came. It's not so easy with PB...they are built differently, with a low center of gravity, and a strong instinct to kill other dogs.

Also, keep in mind that in some areas, PBs have reached epidemic porportions. Last year, I moved to a new neighborhood to be closer to work. Within two weeks, I counted 20+ PBs within the four blocks it takes me to walk to work. I see more all the time, but I have stopped counting.

Something needs to be done, but I don't know if banning them is the solution. For one thing, what would we do with all the PBs currently in existence? Euthanize them? At this point, I would be happy with a law requiring muzzles for PBs in public because I'm really getting tired of walking my dog in fear.

Nice post, thanks for sharing your experiences.

OK, first, you seem to contradict your self. You acknowledge the bad owners, but then you go on to blame the breed. I think that's OK if you believe dogs have instincts that can't be overcome by training.

Do you believe that? I suspect you don't, but at the same time I'm lead to believe that from your post. Just saying.

Second, I have to question you on your own conduct. Frankly you seem to have been involved in many altercations for you not to be doing something wrong. I'm not trying to lay blame on you, but as an observation it doesn't make sense to me that you would be involved in some 5 different attacks, when I've never been in 1 with my dogs. That's just an observation and I'm not trying to put you on the spot here, but from a purely statistical standpoint you seem to be unlucky. This being a skeptics website "unlucky" doesn't really exist. But I'm open to you falling into that 1 percentile

Last thing, you mention "epic" rates of owners in your area. The first thing that came to my mind is that there is talk of banning the breed and this is just a "hoarding" response. That might be another reason to not employ BSL's, the "I want what I can't have" response people might have. This would of course result in more crappy owners having dogs that when they do get in a fight they cause the maximum amount of damage.

 

[tesscaline]

100+ lb APBT's are rather rare... Are you SURE it was a pit bull? Or did you just THINK it was a pit bull? (there was a link earlier in the thread showing how easy it is to confuse other breeds with the APBT)

 

[Furcifer]

100+ lb APBT's are rather rare... Are you SURE it was a pit bull? Or did you just THINK it was a pit bull? (there was a link earlier in the thread showing how easy it is to confuse other breeds with the APBT)

That's a good point, there's no way it was an APBT at 100 pounds, certainly not pure bred. More likely a Corso or even an American BD than an pit.

 

[Emet]

I am truly sorry for your experiences, and what happened to your dog.

I don't have a problem with PBs as they relate to humans. I feel they have a bad rep because it's the kind of breed that tends to attract bad owners (as others have pointed out).

I don't believe we really have any evidence to support that generalization. There are plenty of PBs in good homes with responsible owners (probably more), and there are plenty of other dogs with bad reps (undeserved).

However, I do have a problem with PBs regarding their dog aggression...this is a breed that exists for one reason, and one reason only...to kill other dogs.

This has been discussed previously, and is decidedly untrue.

I have been attacked four times by PBs while walking my dog. On two of those occasions I was lucky in that those dogs were very submissive to their owners and retreated when the owners yelled.

These are bad owners with badly trained dogs. I rescued an American DumbBulldog at 1 year of age-he had spent 3 months abandoned at a boarding facility. He "appeared" to be very sweet and was cat friendly. But he weighed 80#. I used a Gentle Leader to train him, but I also used common sense. He played well with dogs of all sizes (and cats), but I always watched him carefully since I didn't raise him. On walks, where he encountered strange dogs, I was hyper vigilant. Early on, he was attacked several times by a Border Collie cross and submitted. Later on, whenever he saw the dog, he looked like he would not have backed down and defended himself. I simply crossed the street and avoided that dog.

Another time, I ran into someone walking a female PB (leashed). The owner said she was friendly so I let my dog approach her. The instant my dog got within range, and with no warning whatsoever, the PB furiously clamped down on his muzzle. For five minutes, while my dog moaned in agony, I tried everything I could to make her release...I kicked her and punched her so hard that I dislocated my thumb and I had what felt like bursitis in my shoulder for two weeks after. Nothing. Finally, she tried to rearrange her grip and we were able to pull them apart. This happened five years ago, and my dog still has scars.

Again, I am sorry for what happened, but signals were missed, and the woman was most likely an uneducated pet owner. When I advised fellow dog owners that my dog was friendly, and the 2 dogs went nose to nose, I watched carefully for any body language that might alert me that the other dog was going to attack. I was always able to see it and lead my dog away(with my Gentle Leader) before the other dog was able to bite my dog.

The last incident happened about four months ago, and I was so furious I almost came here to start a thread about banning pitbulls. As I'm walking my dog, a woman comes around the corner with a PB. This dog looked like it was +100lbs and the woman looked maybe 120 tops. Just as I turn to go the opposite direction and say to myself "oh great" I hear the lady scream. I turn to see her on the ground being dragged towards me! Naturally, she let go of the leash. Fortunately, a passerby jumped out of his car and helped me take the PB off my dog. I hate to think of how this would have turned out if he hadn't been there ( I had a knife out and was fully prepared to stab this dog.../shudder ).

Your neighborhood seems to be full of people who should not own dogs.

Keep in mind that my dog has been attacked by other breeds, but it was trivial. He got into a fight with a Boxer, for instance, but I was able to pull them apart single-handedly (one with each arm) and hold them apart until the owner came. It's not so easy with PB...they are built differently, with a low center of gravity, and a strong instinct to kill other dogs.

Again, as a vet, I've seen extraordinary damage done to both other dogs and people from breeds other than PBs. In my experience, I can only recall a few aggressive PBs of the hundreds that I have seen as patients.

Also, keep in mind that in some areas, PBs have reached epidemic porportions. Last year, I moved to a new neighborhood to be closer to work. Within two weeks, I counted 20+ PBs within the four blocks it takes me to walk to work. I see more all the time, but I have stopped counting.

Well, I don't know, but I suppose I wouldn't be surprised.

Something needs to be done, but I don't know if banning them is the solution. For one thing, what would we do with all the PBs currently in existence? Euthanize them? At this point, I would be happy with a law requiring muzzles for PBs in public because I'm really getting tired of walking my dog in fear.

Muzzle enforcement would be nil, is impracticable, unfair to responsible PB owners, and it's not a solution. The various solutions have been discussed previously. The issue is bad owners with badly trained dogs. If all the PBs were muzzled tomorrow,another breed would jump to the top of the list for bite wound morbidity.

Again, as previously discussed, if all the PBs vanished from the face of the Earth tomorrow, then another breed would take it's place. There are 2 issues:
1. Fighting dogs for entertainment sport sadistic thrills.
2. Irresponsible dog owners.

 

[Furcifer]

2 quick observations on what I otherwise am in total agreement with.

Again, as a vet, I've seen extraordinary damage done to both other dogs and people from breeds other than PBs. In my experience, I can only recall a few aggressive PBs of the hundreds that I have seen as patients.

Running with the idea that it's usually bad owners that own these dogs I'm going to have to assume they don't always get their pets the best medical treatment available. In this case I'm inclined to think you're particular profession may cause you to have some bias. Having seen "hundreds" you also have a better sample population to take from, so I can respect that for what it's worth. Just saying the actual number probably lies somewhere between "a few" and "most".

Muzzle enforcement would be nil, is impracticable, unfair to responsible PB owners, and it's not a solution. The various solutions have been discussed previously. The issue is bad owners with badly trained dogs. If all the PBs were muzzled tomorrow,another breed would jump to the top of the list for bite wound morbidity.

I wouldn't be so quick to assume it doesn't work. My city has a muzzle bylaw and it doesn't appear to have affected the pitbull population just yet. There appears to be just as many in the city, but now that I'm looking for them it's really hard to tell. I think the people that want these dogs because they can do what they do don't really mind muzzling them. I mean even the bad ass owners don't need the heat of having their dog chomp down on some poodle on accident. The responsible owners that know their dog has a tendency to nip always muzzled their dogs and they continue to do so. The ones that don't care still don't I'm sure. It seems to be effective however with the people that just didn't care because they knew the blame would split. Dog fights were essentially "no fault", if some puppy came up trying to play with a pitbull and the pitbull tore it apart it was always like "Well you're dog shouldn't have came up on my dog because my dog doesn't play". Now that the muzzles are in effect i think it allows people the time they wouldn't have otherwise have to say "Back your dog off, my dog isn't playful"

I'm not sure if I've expressed myself clearly enough here? I think muzzles do put more responsibility on owners and in the end it's a good thing. I'd have to look at the numbers but I'm fairly confident they've had a positive result.

 

[GreNME]

That's a good point, there's no way it was an APBT at 100 pounds, certainly not pure bred. More likely a Corso or even an American BD than an pit.

There is a phenomenon among many people to over-estimate the weight of a dog based on their level of intimidation or the implied intimidation factor of the dog in question. We used to get this all the time when we told people that our rather large male Irish wolfhound weighed in at 200 pounds, to have them share back with us about the 200-pound Rottie or the 110-pound pit bull that they used to have, neither of which would have been a healthy dog if true (they would have been shaped like beach balls with legs). While the APBT ranges between 45-60 on average (tops), I've seen some muscled up fellows who were up to 65 pounds, but that's because they were both intact and heavily exercised (one competed and was quite strong). Almost all of the pit bulls you're going to come across are going to fall in the lower or mid range, but because they're pit bulls the intimidation factor alone adds another 25 pounds, and if the dog is acting in a menacing fashion it's conceivable that up to 40 or 50 pounds get added on in the mind's eye.

Think of it how cameras can tend to add 10-20 imaginary pounds on a person when pictures are taken.

 

[Furcifer]

There is a phenomenon among many people to over-estimate the weight of a dog based on their level of intimidation or the implied intimidation factor of the dog in question. We used to get this all the time when we told people that our rather large male Irish wolfhound weighed in at 200 pounds, to have them share back with us about the 200-pound Rottie or the 110-pound pit bull that they used to have, neither of which would have been a healthy dog if true (they would have been shaped like beach balls with legs). While the APBT ranges between 45-60 on average (tops), I've seen some muscled up fellows who were up to 65 pounds, but that's because they were both intact and heavily exercised (one competed and was quite strong). Almost all of the pit bulls you're going to come across are going to fall in the lower or mid range, but because they're pit bulls the intimidation factor alone adds another 25 pounds, and if the dog is acting in a menacing fashion it's conceivable that up to 40 or 50 pounds get added on in the mind's eye.

Think of it how cameras can tend to add 10-20 imaginary pounds on a person when pictures are taken.

I thought about that, but contrasted it with a 120lb girl which I assumed was probably a fair estimate and "average". I mentally gave the inflated figure the high end of 80lbs. I then bracketed the breed based on a smallish Corso or a large American BD.

I think if he/she had mentioned their own breed of dog and the size it would have been easier to determine if it was simply inflated due to the heat of the moment or not. My best guess is some mixed breed pit/ABD, from the ones I've seen they tend to have a larger stature but the same head shape of a pit.

edit: ooh, but that depends on the colour, now that I think about it I've never seen a white Corso. Perhaps maybe a Dogos?

 

[GreNME]

It may well have been a cross or even a different breed, but the phenomenon I'm talking about doesn't work relative to other people/things/objects and their weight. Seriously, this is a demonstrable trick of the mind that one can mimic with posture and the way they carry themselves and even the set of their stance-- you can look both smaller and larger than you really are without actually changing any attributes, even without changing clothes. Now add to this the psychological associations we give to intimidation and aggression, notably with the sources of such behavior getting amplified in our mind (when we're actually intimidated), and it's easy to see how people mistake the stocky little guys for being significantly larger than they are.

Remember: people are generally poor judges of measurements like weight or distance unless they see the things they measure on a regular basis. As for the rest, Emet pretty much stated anything else I would have.

 

[Furcifer]

It may well have been a cross or even a different breed, but the phenomenon I'm talking about doesn't work relative to other people/things/objects and their weight. Seriously, this is a demonstrable trick of the mind that one can mimic with posture and the way they carry themselves and even the set of their stance-- you can look both smaller and larger than you really are without actually changing any attributes, even without changing clothes. Now add to this the psychological associations we give to intimidation and aggression, notably with the sources of such behavior getting amplified in our mind (when we're actually intimidated), and it's easy to see how people mistake the stocky little guys for being significantly larger than they are.

Remember: people are generally poor judges of measurements like weight or distance unless they see the things they measure on a regular basis. As for the rest, Emet pretty much stated anything else I would have.

Absolutely. Having been an owner of a giant breed dog I'm familiar with the the phenomenon.

I'd also point out from personal experience that beyond about 60lbs people seem to lose any sense of size. It's simply "giant" and they make up a "giant" weight to go with it.

 

[Emet]

2 quick observations on what I otherwise am in total agreement with.



Running with the idea that it's usually bad owners that own these dogs I'm going to have to assume they don't always get their pets the best medical treatment available. In this case I'm inclined to think you're particular profession may cause you to have some bias. Having seen "hundreds" you also have a better sample population to take from, so I can respect that for what it's worth. Just saying the actual number probably lies somewhere between "a few" and "most".

Of course I'm biased. I'm in favor of responsible pet owners, and I loathe bad ones. But your point is taken.
That being said, I have worked in practices with very irresponsible owners and their bad dogs. My observations are limited by my own experiences and that of my colleagues. Off the top of my head, most inter-dog aggression cases or dog-person aggression cases have involved breeds other than PBs (most often mixed breeds of "guessed" ancestry, which has no basis in fact).

I wouldn't be so quick to assume it doesn't work. My city has a muzzle bylaw and it doesn't appear to have affected the pitbull population just yet. There appears to be just as many in the city, but now that I'm looking for them it's really hard to tell. I think the people that want these dogs because they can do what they do don't really mind muzzling them. I mean even the bad ass owners don't need the heat of having their dog chomp down on some poodle on accident. The responsible owners that know their dog has a tendency to nip always muzzled their dogs and they continue to do so. The ones that don't care still don't I'm sure. It seems to be effective however with the people that just didn't care because they knew the blame would split. Dog fights were essentially "no fault", if some puppy came up trying to play with a pitbull and the pitbull tore it apart it was always like "Well you're dog shouldn't have came up on my dog because my dog doesn't play". Now that the muzzles are in effect i think it allows people the time they wouldn't have otherwise have to say "Back your dog off, my dog isn't playful"

1. Which dogs must be muzzled? Is it based on size, breed or previous history?
2. How will it be enforced? In my experience in several states, Animal Control has very little funding--they have enough trouble performing their duties as it is.
3. Again, depending on your answer, what about responsible pet owners with well controlled dogs? Will they have to muzzle their dogs in public?

Remember: people are generally poor judges of measurements like weight or distance unless they see the things they measure on a regular basis.

True. It took me a while to be able to estimate dog weights. Many pet owners are clueless as to their own pet's weight, let alone a dog they're unfamiliar with. When their own dog gains or loses, they are often very inaccurate in their estimation of the change.
As GreNME stated, add trauma and/or intimidation to the mix, and the weight will balloon. Besides, eyewitnesses to crimes committed by humans are often amazingly unreliable.