Split Thread 7WTC - controlled demolition or fire and damage induced collapse?

You're frikkin' joking right? We're talking about lower Manhattan on 9/11, hours after a rather large perimeter was established and you think there would be over 20 recording devices able to pick up the collapse.

So what if there were?

So what if there were not?

So what?

What recordings we have are consistent in not recording any man-made demolition and consistent with all eyewitnesses, the early warnings, the seismic data and the post-collapse engineering analysis.
 
You're frikkin' joking right? We're talking about lower Manhattan on 9/11, hours after a rather large perimeter was established and you think there would be over 20 recording devices able to pick up the collapse.

The 'rather large' parameter, if I recall correctly for WTC7, was 1.5 times building height, rather less than a quarter of a mile. The sound level prediction for any explosive device capable of severing a single core column, if I recall correctly, was 130-140dB at up to half a mile. The perimeter therefore covered less than a quarter of the area in which the sound level would be expected to cause temporary hearing loss.

(No cases of temporary hearing loss were reported.)

Dave
 
You're frikkin' joking right? We're talking about lower Manhattan on 9/11, hours after a rather large perimeter was established and you think there would be over 20 recording devices able to pick up the collapse.

You made the claim, back it up or rather simply provide a list of those documented sources for the audio of the collapse or spare us the goofy attempt at "debunking."

You know there were many demo officials who were within a couple of hundred feet who did not hear any explosives don't you?

Why is that?
 
The 'rather large' parameter, if I recall correctly for WTC7, was 1.5 times building height, rather less than a quarter of a mile. The sound level prediction for any explosive device capable of severing a single core column, if I recall correctly, was 130-140dB at up to half a mile. The perimeter therefore covered less than a quarter of the area in which the sound level would be expected to cause temporary hearing loss.

(No cases of temporary hearing loss were reported.)

Dave

You do not recall correctly on either count. For one thing, NIST's "prediction" was the sound unobstructed, which is not particularly helpful since lower Manhattan isn't exactly a gentle, rolling meadow.

And even if it were, again, where is the list of 20+ recordings that Myriad suggests would have likely been in the area to pick up the sound of the collapse?

Let's start with one.
 
The collapse does not start until AFTER Ashley says "This is it" and then all we can hear is her voice. You are blowing sm:rolleyes:ke.

can you even see the building collapse in the bckground? No? Oh, imagine that.

Listen, I know it hurts your little fantasy when we present facts and conclusive evidence, but....of well.

Stop lying. You have been proven wrong time and time again in this thread. Either admit you were wrong and move on, or continue lying and beaing beat over the head with facts over and over and over.
 
You do not recall correctly on either count. For one thing, NIST's "prediction" was the sound unobstructed, which is not particularly helpful since lower Manhattan isn't exactly a gentle, rolling meadow.

And even if it were, again, where is the list of 20+ recordings that Myriad suggests would have likely been in the area to pick up the sound of the collapse?

Let's start with one.

So if we can only identify 19 cameras and none of them recorded the very loud and distinctive sound of man-made demolition, that proves to you that it was man-made CD?

What a silly line of argument.
 
Well hell if we wanna be nit picky about cameras near the collapse area then I think I have a right to ask why the guys that filmed this one aren't complaining about any loud bangs or ear drum damage following a loud explosion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIbqaybkbWI

And redibis, I'll be blunt right now; the man you reference in your OP is incompetent. This might be a little difficult to grasp but he does not have any concept of how basic research works, and he hasn't the faintest idea how to study architecture or structural engineering. Tony Szamboti cited him once before and I've seen some of his other work and his research is quite deplorable. Wrong man to cite as an example if you're trying to demonstrate research that is more competent than NIST's.
 
Well hell if we wanna be nit picky about cameras near the collapse area then I think I have a right to ask why the guys that filmed this one aren't complaining about any loud bangs or ear drum damage following a loud explosion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIbqaybkbWI

While we're nit pickng, there's an edit right before the collapse starts. For another, this camera is many blocks from the site.
 
For another, this camera is many blocks from the site.

And yet, the mic picks up the sound of the collapse and not any demolition charges.

Thanks for helping to illustrate the point.
 
What is this, Breitbart? Did you miss the first sentence of my post?

First, I'd appreciate if you don't call me names. Second, no I didn't. It's not relevant to the point I was making:

The camera picked up the sound of the collapse. It did not pick up the sound of any demolition charges.

Another video - from a truther no less - where the sound of the collapse is picked up, but no demolition charges.
 
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First, I'd appreciate if you don't call me names. Second, no I didn't. It's not relevant to the point I was making:

The camera picked up the sound of the collapse. It did not pick up the sound of any demolition charges.

Uh, I wasn't calling you names, I was referring to a played out news story... oh never mind.

There's an edit right before the bldg collapses, which is when any demo charges would have occurred, assuming of course, internal demolition charges would even be picked up by a camcorder condenser mic.
 
While we're nit pickng, there's an edit right before the collapse starts. For another, this camera is many blocks from the site.

1) How many blocks? What would be the expected attenuation of sound from that distance? (feel free to reference known CD's if you wish)
2) Since the microphones pick up any sound without prejudice, how is it that they uniformly pick up ambient sounds, yet no explosions? No truther has been able to answer that question without resorting to absurd handwaving.


Question for C7.
You made the claim that 'white smoke' is from therm*te.
Are you going to stand by that claim? If so, you need to state clearly that white smoke is ALWAYS, without exception, an indication of therm*te.

Otherwise you are forced to back down and admit that the smoke may have had a different source.

If you fail to answer this question, it indicts you as someone who will not even stand by their own statements. That diminishes your value to zero. What's it gonna be?

The beloved Dr. Greening wrote, in his paper investigating sources of sulfur 'In order to estimate the total amount of sulfur that could have been released by firing thermate charges placed at pre-selected locations in the WTC we need to know how much thermate was used on 9-11. If we
assume that a single thermate cutter charge consists of about 20 kg of reagents and 100 charges were needed per building, we conclude that a total of 2000 kg of thermate was used to demolish each WTC
building. This implies that the production of SO2 from thermate was no more than about 40 kg per building.'
Sulfur and the World Trade Center Disaster
by
F. R. Greening



ie about 88 lbs for you non-metric Yankees

Is Greening correct? If not why?
If not, what else is he incorrect about? He doesn't see the sulfur in gypsum being the only source, but maybe he's wrong about that too.

What if all of you are wrong and there was no thermate or thermite? What does that do to your conspiracy theories? Anything?
Do you even care whether you're right or wrong? (personally I see no evidence that you do care)

My quick analysis of 9/11 Truth: As time goes on, the inherent contradictions in truther theories reduce adherents into increased cognitive dissonance, whereby they simply cannot let go of a single theory for fear that the whole thing will collapse (it will).
They therefore attempt to juggle ALL the ideas as ACTUAL, not merely theoretical thought experiments. This reduces the movement to increasing absurdity and irrelevance.

C7's repetition of Gage's 6.5 second talking point is a good illustration of this mental paralysis: if they admit that the actual collapse began sometime before the E PH collapsed from the roof into the building, then they admit the collapse was far more complex than they are allowing.

They won't do that, as their reputations hinge on this 6.5 s fiction.

Same with microphones and the complete absence of demolition explosions at the time of collapse. Truthers such as C7 cannot accept that the lack of evidence means that there were no demolition explosions, even if that's the truth. So they are forced to various desperate and absurd arguments as to how the sounds 'magically' were not recorded.

Again, this reduces their positions to no more than a pseudo-scientific, anti-intellectual farce.

C7, MM, Gage, Fetzer, Harrit, Jones and the rest are a JOKE. Nothing more. Intellectual frauds, IMO.
 
Uh, I wasn't calling you names, I was referring to a played out news story... oh never mind.

There's an edit right before the bldg collapses, which is when any demo charges would have occurred, assuming of course, internal demolition charges would even be picked up by a camcorder condenser mic.

If you're referring to WTC7 collapse, you are directly contradicting the work of 'luminary' David Chandler.
Are you saying his analysis is wrong? He can 'prove' the explosions happened at a particular time, caught on the video.

Please tell me that he's wrong. I'd love to hear that. Either he is, or you are, btw. You can't both be right.
 
There's an edit right before the bldg collapses, which is when any demo charges would have occurred,

In fact, the collapse has already started at the beginning of this video. You can see the Penthouse has collapsed. As such, the edit couldn't have been long, and we should have been hearing charges going off. We didn't.

Then there's the added evidence of the camera man. He makes no reference to any demolition charges going off, and he would have heard them. Everyone in lower Manhattan would have.

assuming of course, internal demolition charges would even be picked up by a camcorder condenser mic.

Again, demolition charges are much much louder than the sound of a building collapsing, so yes, the camera would pick it up.
 
There's an edit right before the bldg collapses, which is when any demo charges would have occurred, assuming of course, internal demolition charges would even be picked up by a camcorder condenser mic.

Why didn't seismic devices pick up the explosive detonations?

They do with other controlled demolitions. Why not in this case?

Why didn't the windows get blown out by the huge explosions? You need to explain this anomaly in scientific terms, using calculations for the amount of explosives, their placement, and the lack of pressure waves.

And why are there no explosive flashes as required when perimeter columns are allegedly cut? You can't have it both ways: either the columns were cut, or your theories are wrong.
Your own doctrine demands that the supports were cut simultaneously.
 
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Of course if anybody is concerned about the video "jump" part way through the collapse the conspicuous lack of any reaction to explosives both during and immediately following the collapse that the "jump" had absolutely no chance of obfuscating might be a rather important detail to pay attention to. I'm pretty sure if I'm not expecting a loud bang to go along with the collapse I would need more than a few brief seconds to "express" myself.
 
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alienentity said:
"The beloved Dr. Greening wrote, in his paper investigating sources of sulfur 'In order to estimate the total amount of sulfur that could have been released by firing thermate charges placed at pre-selected locations in the WTC we need to know how much thermate was used on 9-11"

Your "beloved Dr. Greening" also wrote to the NIST in response to their public draft of the WTC 7 Final Report.

Dr. Greening writes;

"I therefore believe that the National Institute of Standards and Technology, through its Draft Report, has fallen well short of substantiating its own collapse initiation hypothesis but could, on the contrary, be said to have provided evidence that a single column failure, brought on by thermal expansion of floor framing beams and girders, did not precipitate a global collapse of WTC 7 -the reason being that the NIST simulation predicts a slow collapse initiation which was not observed.

Therefore I believe that an alternative collapse initiation and propagation hypothesis is called for -one that more accurately reflects the reality of what happened to WTC 7 on September 11th, 2001."


He does explain his conclusions in greater detail but I didn't want to subject you to more reading than you are comfortable with.

You can read his complete response here;
http://www.cool-places.0catch.com/911/GreeningCommentsNCSTAR1-9.pdf

MM
 
From what I remember when he posted here, Greening DOESN'T consider controlled demolition an "alternative collapse and propagation hypothesis".
 
Two years later, and the NIST have made no attempt to address Dr. Greening's concerns.

Something brought WTC 7 down and it certainly wasn't the office cubicle
fires that the NIST lay the blame on.

MM
 

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