Why do people insist AA is not religious?/Efficacy of AA & other treatment programs

[ponderingturtle]

Why? (Attempted move of goalposts noted).

Who said AA was more effective? Not me, no-one here that I recall.

Well you did

Imagine that 5 - 13% still sober after one year. That's not bad going, wonder if any other therapy has anything near close to that? What's that? No, well whod have guessed

That directly says no other therapy even comes close to the effectiveness of AA. Now what was that about moving goalposts?

 

[ponderingturtle]

That was him. That was then. This is us. This is now. Evolution. What a concept.
BTW tldr

So what replaced that book as the repository for modern doctrine?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Then you "seem" incorrect.
Can you show me something that has better results? If so great, I will stand corrected. In the meantime, the 9% is far better than an otherwise zero percent (well it did when I went to school). This simply shows that AA has a place in society for alcoholics to recover. Other things might work too, but you have yet to provide any data for that.

They are blatantly incompatable. In one you explicitly state that AA is more effective, and in the later one you claim no one made this claim. You are being blatantly dishonest.

If you want to lie, you should at least lie about things that are not there for everyone to see your lies.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Perhaps I could have been clearer. That said, your lack of understanding is not really my problem.

But do you have these other stats? I am genuinely interested in what methods of recovery achieve success.

 

[tsig]

They are blatantly incompatable. In one you explicitly state that AA is more effective, and in the later one you claim no one made this claim. You are being blatantly dishonest.

If you want to lie, you should at least lie about things that are not there for everyone to see your lies.

I noticed that when contradictions within his own statements were pointed out he quit replying to me.

 

[iknownothing]

Perhaps I could have been clearer. That said, your lack of understanding is not really my problem.

But do you have these other stats? I am genuinely interested in what methods of recovery achieve success.

I have no opinion on what works best. But just thinking of a friend who just decided one day around 6 years ago to quit, and hasn't had a drink since then. How would someone like him show up in statistics? I wonder how many people there are like that.

 

[Tinyal]

Several controlled or double-blind studies have shown that out of a given group of problem drinkers, approximately 5% quit on their own - without any sort of program or treatment, they simply decided they'd had enough punishment.

This 5% number is significant, as it's exactly the same as the average quit rate produced by attending AA. (again, quit rate determined by those who initially attended AA by whatever means -court, self directed, family directed, treatment center, etc & were still sober 1 year later).

The conclusion from data from AA's own triennial surveys combined with the studies that have been done (with some difficulty, as AA is not cooperative in providing data) over the years is that doing nothing - simply deciding one has had enough - is just as effective as going to AA and having religion shoved down one's throat..

Those people who start babbling about AA only suggesting are just fooling themselves (as well as fooling 100's of thousands of people every year, and the massive 12 step recovery business/treatment centers/insurance providers) - what people are told in AA in the big book & 12x12 is take our suggestions or die of alcholism - or die in prison - or die in an insane institution.

These people being introduced to AA are lead to believe AA has a cure (or forced to attend by the legal system) are in an extremely vulnerable position. Coupling that emotive state with strong group pressure to 'accept our suggestions or die' (ie - go back and drink some more - reinforced by the group/peer 'suggestion' that to continue to drink is to die) reveals the lie about 'suggestions' quite completely. I personally have seen this occur 1000's of times at meetings I myself attended over a period of 21 years - this personal experience matches the studies (espescially those studies by George Valiant - a Trustee of AA Inc) exactly.

All this is quite clear to those who examine the data critically - unless, of course, you've been cult brainwashed or religiously converted (AA's primary goal - as stated in the official AA material) is to make the member do gods will & help others to achieve sobriety - you won't hear 'stay sober & help others to achieve sobriety' anywhere in the big book (except where AA's big book & other material says that just being sober isn't good enough ) as a primary goal, unless it's connected to 'and do god's will'.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

You keep saying stuff like this and draw on the opinions of individuals withing the big book and elsewhere.

Why?

They have never said, "my way or the highway" or similar and if they did it related to their personal views.

I obviously have to repeat:

Tradition three:
The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.

The 12 steps are suggested (ch5, p59)

If someone is telling you to do something else, it is their opinion. Any religion is individual.

And no matter how you want to twist words, the fact remains: NOTHING IS COMPULSORY.

And on the "do AA or die message" (or similar), are you suggesting that people do not die (every day) from alcoholism?
If 9% can find relief within AA (with or withour religion) surely that is a good thing.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

I noticed that when contradictions within his own statements were pointed out he quit replying to me.

Nothing deliberate tsig, I assure you.

If I have contradicted myself in this thread, no probs, I will see if I can explain. So, please show me the relevant posts and I will elaborate.

 

[godofpie]

So what replaced that book as the repository for modern doctrine?

I guess the best answer to that is oral history.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I guess the best answer to that is oral history.

Seems more religious than some religions I can name, like a quaker meeting.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Seems more religious than some religions I can name, like a quaker meeting.

Really?
What are their requirements for membership?

 

[Belz...]

You call it BS, I call it life saving

Life saving, soul crushing.

A "help" group that tells me that I have a "disease", which is clearly not the case, that I can't do anything about it, which is clearly not the case, that I'm worthless, which varies with the individual, and that my only hope for salvation is to allow a nonsensical, imaginary being into my heard is not only deeply religious, but dangerous and harmful.

 

[Belz...]

Can the higher power be the planet Jupiter? It's obviously higher and more powerful than me.

It's also obviously more powerful than god.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Life saving, soul crushing.

A "help" group that tells me that I have a "disease", which is clearly not the case,

Best tell the World Health Authority, AMA and other national health groups that you think they are wrong - they probably want your approval.

that I can't do anything about it, which is clearly not the case,

Incorrect again. You don't pick up the first drink if you are an alcoholic. That's what you do.

that I'm worthless, which varies with the individual,

You are going to have to show me where it or anyone says someone is worthless. In fact the opposite is true.

and that my only hope for salvation is to allow a nonsensical, imaginary being into my heard is not only deeply religious,

Wrong again. Salvation (whatever that is, is up to the individual), getting sober depends on making some effort to do so.

but dangerous and harmful.

Please explain this last bit. A few people have suggested it is "dangerous", "harmful" or similar. I fail to see how stopping drinking could be harmful to an alcoholic (save for detox, which should be medically supervised in some instances), it might actually save their life.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

It's also obviously more powerful than god.......

as you understand him.

Fixed that for you.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Really?
What are their requirements for membership?

Showing up. And they preach at you so much less than the AA people in this thread. See they by and large sit around in silence.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

lol

Imagine that, agnostics "preaching" sobriety in this thread, and atheists and non alcoholics thinking its religion.
Talk about confirmation bias!

 

[tsig]

Life saving, soul crushing.

A "help" group that tells me that I have a "disease", which is clearly not the case, that I can't do anything about it, which is clearly not the case, that I'm worthless, which varies with the individual, and that my only hope for salvation is to allow a nonsensical, imaginary being into my heard is not only deeply religious, but dangerous and harmful.

Sounds a lot like Christianity. You are a sinner, you can't do anything about it, you are worthless and your only hope is to turn your life over to Jesus.

Maybe there's a pattern here.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Sounds a lot like Christianity. You are a sinner, you can't do anything about it, you are worthless and your only hope is to turn your life over to Jesus.

Maybe there's a pattern here.

lol
There would be if any of those things were actually said.

You guys clearly don't know your subject or are deliberately lying.

Tsig, where was it in this thread you pointed out an apparent contradiction? I would like to clarify it for you if possible.