Why do people insist AA is not religious?/Efficacy of AA & other treatment programs

[Hallo Alfie]

They've tried to make it more open, but insist that you have a "higher power"

as an atheist, it took me a long time to come with my "higher power"...nature.


that said, i still can't get anything out of AA, because A.) it really is mostly religious, and B.) every time i go, i just want to drink even more.

Keep coming back - it will get better and easier.

By the way, GOD can stand for a number of things aside from a religious God:


A way of life:
Good Orderly Direction

Nature or natural order
Great Out Doors.

The AA fellowship itself:
Group of Drunks (or Druggies for the NA minded)


The "belief" in a higher power is part of the step work that allow us to stop being perfect, to cease trying to control the things we cannot, and/or to accept that we are powerless over alcohol (or our addiction, in whatever form it takes) when we take the first drink.
It is part of the necessary ego deflation that so many of us desperately need.

 

[gabeygoat]

Keep coming back - it will get better and easier.

By the way, GOD can stand for a number of things aside from a religious God:


A way of life:
Good Orderly Direction

Nature or natural order
Great Out Doors.

The AA fellowship itself:
Group of Drunks (or Druggies for the NA minded)


The "belief" in a higher power is part of the step work that allow us to stop being perfect, to cease trying to control the things we cannot, and/or to accept that we are powerless over alcohol (or our addiction, in whatever form it takes) when we take the first drink.
It is part of the necessary ego deflation that so many of us desperately need.

I just wonder if being 'powerless' is helpful.
But honestly, I really appreciate what you're saying.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

I just wonder if being 'powerless' is helpful.
But honestly, I really appreciate what you're saying.

If I have the first drink I am powerless.
I cannot guarantee my behaviour once I have taken it - it is here I am powerless.

 

[gabeygoat]

If I have the first drink I am powerless.
I cannot guarantee my behaviour once I have taken it - it is here I am powerless.

Ok, that's exactly true. But then, does the drink become the higher power? I'm not trying to be confrontational, and I find your thoughts refreshing. I wish you were in one of the local AA groups to be honest.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Ok, that's exactly true. But then, does the drink become the higher power? I'm not trying to be confrontational, and I find your thoughts refreshing. I wish you were in one of the local AA groups to be honest.

I'm not sure the drink ever did become the higher power exactly, to be honest - in fact I' don't think Ive heard it put quite that way before. That said, the reality is that we did put it in front of everything: health, love life, livelihood, legal, morality etc and eventually the unacceptable became acceptable.
I guess in that sense it had power over us and maybe that's what you mean by it becoming a higher power.

btw, no offence taken, nor do I think you are being confrontational - I am more than happy to share my experience strength and hope.

Cheers.

 

[Rasmus]

Keep coming back - it will get better and easier.

By the way, GOD can stand for a number of things aside from a religious God:


A way of life:
Good Orderly Direction

Nature or natural order
Great Out Doors.

The AA fellowship itself:
Group of Drunks (or Druggies for the NA minded)

that is nothing but horse manure. Who do you expect to believe that?

It boils down to: no, it's not really about god, even though it says "God" right there, but if we all pretend that it doesn't then it won't anymore. honest.

The "belief" in a higher power is part of the step work that allow us to stop being perfect, to cease trying to control the things we cannot, and/or to accept that we are powerless over alcohol (or our addiction, in whatever form it takes) when we take the first drink.

Why do you need to put "belief" in quotation marks there? If that's not the right kind of word, then how come AA is using it?

Also, this is an explanation as to why the religious elements may be helpful to some. It does not make them any less religious!

it's about as ridiculous as the claim that a doorknob could be a higher power. Yes, it could be - if you're clinically retarded. If anyone seriously belived that a doorknob could influence and controltheir life they should be locked away for both their protection and that of the general public, regardless of any possible substance abuse.

(Oh, and it is not logical at all. A higher power suggests that there is some form of control. That is not needed to explain why I cannot control something.)

It is part of the necessary ego deflation that so many of us desperately need.

Meh.

Good for you if it works for you. But that doesn't stop it from being religious.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

that is nothing but horse manure. Who do you expect to believe that?

It boils down to: no, it's not really about god, even though it says "God" right there, but if we all pretend that it doesn't then it won't anymore. honest.



Why do you need to put "belief" in quotation marks there? If that's not the right kind of word, then how come AA is using it?

Also, this is an explanation as to why the religious elements may be helpful to some. It does not make them any less religious!

it's about as ridiculous as the claim that a doorknob could be a higher power. Yes, it could be - if you're clinically retarded. If anyone seriously belived that a doorknob could influence and controltheir life they should be locked away for both their protection and that of the general public, regardless of any possible substance abuse.

(Oh, and it is not logical at all. A higher power suggests that there is some form of control. That is not needed to explain why I cannot control something.)



Meh.

Good for you if it works for you. But that doesn't stop it from being religious.

You are correct that the word God is used time and again, however you seem to ignore the fact that as early as step three, it is clearly expressed in the terms "as we understood Him". This is the common theme relating to God, or a higher power. Those that wrote the steps outline that that is their preferred term for their higher power - if one doesn't like the term they can use something (or nothing else). No one cares, I'm surprised you do.
Remember also that these steps were created some 75 years ago and the language of the day was slightly different.

You call it BS, I call it life saving (and I consider myself agnostic) and I have seen hundreds (thousands probably) that have recovered using 12 step principles.

Clearly you have some difficulty in separating the difference between spirituality and religion - might I suggest a dictionary? Those with a serious aversion to any form of God usually do find it difficult to separate the two words, and thus have already closed their mind to to any alternatives.

You remind me of a saying ascribed by some to Herbert Spencer when he said:

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation”

But with regard to most of your post and its' criticisms, I echo your sentiments with your own....

"Meh".

 

[Rasmus]

You are correct that the word God is used time and again, however you seem to ignore the fact that as early as step three, it is clearly expressed in the terms "as we understood Him".

but it is STILL referring to a God, making the entire thing religious almost by definition.

It doesn't matter if it doesn't have to be a particular god.

This is the common theme relating to God, or a higher power. Those that wrote the steps outline that that is their preferred term for their higher power - if one doesn't like the term they can use something (or nothing else). No one cares, I'm surprised you do.

i have an extreme dislike for people that try to play silly buggers with me. any so far it looks as if any claims to AA being "not religious" are just that. They are extremely pathetic attempts at doing so, but that only makes it worse.

Remember also that these steps were created some 75 years ago and the language of the day was slightly different.[/quote

Oh really? what did "God" mean all those years ago? Will a dictionary from that time list "doorknob" as a meaning?

You call it BS, I call it life saving

You are not reading or not understanding or in the very least not responding to what I actually write.

(and I consider myself agnostic) and I have seen hundreds (thousands probably) that have recovered using 12 step principles.

I'll take "Logical fallacies for $300".

Clearly you have some difficulty in separating the difference between spirituality and religion - might I suggest a dictionary?

Well, yes. None of many threads on the subject here have ever been able to shed any light on it, so if you know of a particular dictionary that does it would be most welcome.

Those with a serious aversion to any form of God usually do so, and have already closed their mind to to any alternatives.

You remind me of a saying ascribed by some to Herbert Spencer when he said:
[...]

Trust me, my contempt formed *after* the investigation.

 

[ponderingturtle]

To the OP (et al).

I can only comment on AA meetings I have attended here and abroad and cannot therefor speak of the groups in (say) the US.
I have been clean and sober now for 10 years and work as a forensic counsellor in AOD as well as other areas.
AA forms the basis for the maintenance of my sobriey and I feel I can discuss this with some level of authority. So much for credentials.

As for the individual groups using (say) the lords prayer, doing 12 step work as some prerequisite etc etc. All that I can say is that this is a democratic decision taken by each individual group as to how they would like to run their group. There is no central office dictating how the groups should be run - it is their decision alone, voted on by the members of that group.

Someone else outlined that if one group doesn't suit you, try another, or another. There are plenty around and if one makes a small effort, they will find somewhere they are happy. If not, go back out and drink - the people in AA don't mind - that too is the choice of the individual just the same as their choice of/whether to have a higher power.


AA does not purport to be religious however to the uninitiated there would appear to be some religious connotations. There are many members who retain their agnosticism, atheism or whatever throughout their sobriety. There are many too whose 'spirituality' evolves over time. There is no "one God"; it is a God of ones own understanding in whatever form that might take.

Religion implies some sort of dogma/tenet or similar; a uniform approach to the religion. Spirituality refers to a 'purpose' or 'reason' an individual has: some might refer to this as ones psychosocial supports for example. Clearly this is not religion and is what is refered to as an individuals spirituality.

Cheers

And you have just defined that many quakers and unitarians are not religious and should not be considered religions.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Keep coming back - it will get better and easier.

By the way, GOD can stand for a number of things aside from a religious God:


A way of life:
Good Orderly Direction

Nature or natural order
Great Out Doors.

The AA fellowship itself:
Group of Drunks (or Druggies for the NA minded)

Isn't NA an offshoot of scientology, and a gateway cult for scientology? Or is there a difference between NA and NarcAnon?

 

[Hallo Alfie]

And you have just defined that many quakers and unitarians are not religious and should not be considered religions.

I can only comment about my understanding of AA and my own spirituality. I have zero knowledge of these and their practices.

Isn't NA an offshoot of scientology, and a gateway cult for scientology? Or is there a difference between NA and NarcAnon?

In Australia NA is Narcotics Anonymous which is distinctly, totally and unambiguously different from Scientologies' Narcanon. I suspect they (the scientologists) have deliberately used this similar term/word to confuse and attract the vulnerable.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I can only comment about my understanding of AA and my own spirituality. I have zero knowledge of these and their practices.

But you have been clear that they are not real religions as you define the term.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

But you have been clear that they are not real religions as you define the term.

How could I have been clear about them when I haven't commented on, nor know anything about them? If you wish to ascribe that as my view - go ahead, I really don't mind. It is not my intention to change anyone's mind, but to simply answer the question as I understand it.

My understanding of "religious" relates to a specific religion with tenets, dogma, teachings, belief etc within the framework of same.
Spirituality relates to ones inner health - a persons soul or psychosocial health. This may or may not have any direct relationship with a particular religion. Eg. An atheist can have a sound spirituality in this sense despite the total absense of any religious convictions. They can obtain this simply through a healthy self-esteem, family, friends etc.

It is this distinction (in general terms) that is the difference made within AA and other 12 step-fellowships.

You might not like it, nor agree with it, but there it is all the same. The question has been answered

 

[RenaissanceBiker]

Can the higher power be the planet Jupiter? It's obviously higher and more powerful than me. It is further away from than Sun than Earth so that can be considered higher. It has no supernatural powers, but its' mass and gravity make it much more powerful than me. Can I just admit that I believe in the planet Jupiter?

A.A.Alfie, can you shed some light on the so-called "13th step?" I have heard this term refers to men in AA preying on vulnerable young girls who are sent to these meetings. Have you seen anything like that?

 

[Dancing David]

I just wonder if being 'powerless' is helpful.
But honestly, I really appreciate what you're saying.

My take, you are powerless to control your use of the substance, you have power every where else.

Cose not to use, because once you do, you will keep using.

An addict can not control their use, so chose not to use.

Now there is a whole empowerment model as well

Women for Sobriety

Secular Organizations for Sobriety

A very nice reworking of the 12 steps

The Sixteen Steps

 

[Dancing David]

Isn't NA an offshoot of scientology, and a gateway cult for scientology? Or is there a difference between NA and NarcAnon?

Not when I went:

NA Narcotics Anonymous

Just like AA in most ways, different groups, predators, bad sponsers.

Still helpful to me to come to the idea of 'Don't Use.'

 

[Dancing David]

Ok, that's exactly true. But then, does the drink become the higher power? I'm not trying to be confrontational, and I find your thoughts refreshing. I wish you were in one of the local AA groups to be honest.

The issue I saw over and over as a crisis counselor was that the drug becomes the 'primary relationship', so rather than a person the addict is defined by their drug use.

I prefer the lower power myself!

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Can the higher power be the planet Jupiter? It's obviously higher and more powerful than me. It is further away from than Sun than Earth so that can be considered higher. It has no supernatural powers, but its' mass and gravity make it much more powerful than me. Can I just admit that I believe in the planet Jupiter?

A.A.Alfie, can you shed some light on the so-called "13th step?" I have heard this term refers to men in AA preying on vulnerable young girls who are sent to these meetings. Have you seen anything like that?

Yep, there are some people in AA and elsewhere that will take advantage of the vulnerable. This is true in every facet of human existence. Women will target men too - it's not a one way street.
There is a very good guide here too: Women should stick with women and men with men (especially early in the piece), this is so that feelings do not get confused when dealing with very personal emotions and information.

Usually the 'old timers' will look out for the newcomer and pass on such advice as appropriate. It is something to be aware of however with some minor precautions this should be easily accounted for.


I found my wife in AA - but I would hardly consider myself a predator.

The issue I saw over and over as a crisis counselor was that the drug becomes the 'primary relationship', so rather than a person the addict is defined by their drug use.

Yep, certainly to some extent at any rate.

 

[zooterkin]

Can the higher power be the planet Jupiter? It's obviously higher and more powerful than me. It is further away from than Sun than Earth so that can be considered higher. It has no supernatural powers, but its' mass and gravity make it much more powerful than me. Can I just admit that I believe in the planet Jupiter?

Wouldn't Uranus be so much funnier?

 

[Pup]

i have an extreme dislike for people that try to play silly buggers with me. any so far it looks as if any claims to AA being "not religious" are just that. They are extremely pathetic attempts at doing so, but that only makes it worse.

Remember also that these steps were created some 75 years ago and the language of the day was slightly different.

Oh really? what did "God" mean all those years ago? Will a dictionary from that time list "doorknob" as a meaning?

Like Rasmus, I hate the stupid tricks where people try to pretend to be inclusive to atheists while still obviously assuming that everyone should be religious.

Let's be honest. The language was formed 75 years ago when it was widely acceptable to think that everyone should believe in god and if they didn't that was part of what was wrong with them.

As a disclaimer: I was lucky enough to be born with a non-addictive kind of personality, so AA isn't relevant to me (not taking any personal credit for that, just luck), but I've seen the same thing in other groups like lineage societies which theoretically should have no need for religion at all. But you don't just need to prove your genealogy, you need to swear that you believe in god, too. The inclusive variations just allow you to substitute some less specific term of your own choosing, in the same sort of way, but don't leave out the god part entirely.