Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[LondonJohn]

It's my belief that Amanda never actively participated in the murder. I believe her when she said she covered her ears to stop from hearing Meredith's screams.

In that case, I presume that you would dismiss all the so-called "mixed DNA" evidence (Knox and Kercher) collected from the bathroom then?

 

[LondonJohn]

They had little choice at that point except to invite the postal police inside. Raffaele had already called his sister and the Carabinieri. How could he explain not allowing the first police on the scene inside when he had just call the police to come?

So you would agree that Sollecito and Knox erroneously (but understandably) believed that the police who arrived at the house were responding the Sollectio's call to the Carabinieri?

 

[LondonJohn]

Not on this side of the pond. I have no idea about where you are.

Maybe an analogy might help. An auto mechanic who has spent years being paid to actually work on numerous different kinds of vehicles and to supervise others doing the same can reasonably be expected to have a broader and deeper knowledge of the subject than someone who took a few minutes to leaf through some magazine ads and look at the pretty pictures. All this even without the need for a university degree.

Or do you find fault with that as well?

Oh no, I defer to your extensive hands-on experience of installing locks into doors, and supervising others who do the same. That's perhaps why I'm surprised that you can't use all your knowledge and experience to show us a Corbin domestic lockset which resembles the one installed in the girls' house, and where the key operates both the deadbolt and the spring latch. Surely an expert would have no difficulty in quickly locating such a lockset, if one existed? That's all I'm asking for.

 

[LondonJohn]

Yes, I'd agree that there has to be serious doubt about Knox entering the murder room and stabbing Meredith. I've listed the reason in a post above. What is more, I think there is a chance that the appeals court will see it this way.

Londonjohn, photos of the scratch and missing earings (bottom two on the left ear) are shown on PMF .... this has been done to death. If Knox wasn't involved in a struggle with Meredith, it is more than possible that Guede got hold of her and threaten her before they ran?. Knox was heard mumbling about 'him' at the police station, she blurted out a confession to the police, but replaced Guede with Patrick ... again, I think out of fear ... Guede was still on the loose at that time.

The male and female heard arguing at the cottage at approx 01:45 on 2nd Nov, I think were RS and AK, who had returned to the cottage and hadn't known for sure that Meredith was dead until that point. I think AK got RS to cover the body and lock the door .... a way to 'block it all out'.

Where are the official close-up police photographs of these so-called injuries? Where is the testimony of a police doctor stating that Knox was scratched/sliced on the neck and/or had her earrings pulled out through force? Show me those photos and that testimony.

And are you seriously suggesting that Knox was outside the murder room, that she was subsequently cut in an altercation with Guede, and that this explains the mixed DNA in the bathroom? Really? Are you quite sure that this is your position?

 

[stilicho]

It's my belief that Amanda never actively participated in the murder. I believe her when she said she covered her ears to stop from hearing Meredith's screams.

There are too many indicators presented by the prosecution, debated by the defence teams, and judged upon, to ignore Amanda's direct participation in both the sexual assault and murder of Meredith Kercher.

These include but are not limited to:

- Raffaele told the Italian courts that he should not be held responsible for actions taken by Amanda.
- Amanda's lamp was inside Meredith's locked room.
- Amanda's DNA was on the knife also containing Meredith's DNA.
- Amanda knew many details of the attack that could possibly have been learned from remaining in the kitchen but are more probably associated with active participation.
- Amanda created a story out of whole cloth to explain away her bare footprints.
- Amanda was obviously not with Raffaele during his phone calls on the morning of 02 NOV 2007 when they claimed they were asleep.
- If Amanda was not involved there was little reason for her to be the one to work on most of the cleanup by herself.
- In her alibi email, Amanda explained why her DNA should be expected to be found mixed with Meredith's in various locations in the crimescene.
- Amanda went to great lengths to explain away the mop, even though elaborating on this detail was unnecessarily complicating her protestations of innocence.

Knox is a charming murderer like Ted Bundy was. Her coyness and physical stature work in her favour to create a positive image of innocence. Her parents and her groupies here help to reinforce that image. But, as Amanda would say, it's all a mere vision with no substance whatsoever.

 

[Alt+F4]

Yes, I disagree with the translation from 2008. I will ask Candace if a correction has been made by her since that time.

It has been translated properly and Raffaele said "some blood"

How do you know it has been translated properly if you don't speak Italian yourself?

Bruce, perhaps you and other posters who think AK is 100% innocent could explain something to me. Why is it that just because folks think AK is innocent that also must mean that RS is innocent too?

Imagine your sister, or your daughter told you she was going to marry a man she met in another country, who barely spoke English and who she had known for one week. Of course, you would object and say it's a horrible idea. AK's fate is now linked to RS's in a more permanent way than marriage yet those who support her seem to have no problem with this. I don't get it.

By all indications RS can barely speak or write in his own language. What do AK's supporters really know about this man? For goodness sake, even she barely knew him.

If AK's supporters would open their eyes they would see that the evidence against him is much stronger than against her. Continuing to treat them as if they are the same person will only result in AK spending many, many years in prison for a murder she probably didn't commit.

 

[LondonJohn]

So, by my reckoning, over just the past six weeks or so, this thread has been able to make significant headway into the following areas:

1) The front door situation (it appears that keys were needed to open the door even from the inside, and that the door needed to be locked with the key since the latch had been disabled)

2) The problems with LCN DNA analysis, as it applies to both the knife and the bra clasp (Stefanoni was pushing for particular (and known) results in a lab with insufficient LCN ant-contamination measures, no control samples, and seemingly no accreditation)

3) The injuries (or lack thereof) to Knox (implying that the so-called "mixed-DNA" evidence from the bathroom is worthless, since there appears to be no evidence that Knox bled from any struggle-related contact)

4) The shoeprint evidence in the murder room (shown to very likely to be exclusively made by Guede's tennis shoe, thereby removing another piece of evidence placing Knox in the room at the time of the crime)

5) The testimony of both Quintavalle and Curatolo (so many inconsistencies, confusion over dates, conflict with others, length of time before "remembering", assistance in coming forward from journalists)

6) The timing of the 2 November phone calls (almost certainly made before the postal police showed up, negating a prosecution argument that they were made when the police were already in the house as some sort of alibi-creation strategy)

7) The movements and activities of Meredith's cellphones on the night of 1 November (the aborted call home just before 21.00 followed by the fact that she never tried to call again, the strange and out-of-character terminated calls to her UK voicemail and her UK bank, the registration at around 22.15 of the cellphones with cell masts situated on the route to where the phones were dumped)

8) The reasoned interpretation of the autopsy report (Meredith still had undigested pizza from an 18.00-18.30 meal in her stomach, heavily implying that death occurred within 2-3 hours of this meal - i.e. before 21.30 at the latest)

9) A reasoned discussion of hard drug usage (either the pair were not habitual users of any controlled substance other than cannabis, or they were hard-drug users and the police failed to find evidence of it in their investigation)

10) Plenty of documented evidence supporting the position that Knox may have been coerced and bullied into supplying a false confession/allegation

11) A reasoned discussion of Guede's possible level of sole participation (how and why Guede might have had the motive, means and opportunity to enter the house alone, how and why his faeces ended up unflushed in the toilet, how and why he might have searched for Meredith's keys in order to be able to exit the house via the front door rather than via the window, how and why he might have simply pulled the front door shut behind him, rather than stopping to lock it).

And I'm pretty sure there are more areas than these - they just don't spring to mind right now. Pretty good going, though, for a thread that many others wish to see either shut down or wither and die. To my mind, there's only one place right now where a serious and intelligent debate is taking place about this crime.

 

[Alt+F4]

In that case, I presume that you would dismiss all the so-called "mixed DNA" evidence (Knox and Kercher) collected from the bathroom then?

This is what I think:
1. All the DNA evidence against AK can be dismissed because she lived in the apartment.
2. The knife from RS's apartment was not the murder weapon and never left his apartment.
3. RS and RG murdered MK, AK was present but did not participate.
4. RS and AK came to the apartment after RG had stabbed MK, but she wasn't dead yet. RS and AK were very high and RG convinced RS to participate in murdering her.
5. AK didn't tell the truth initally because she was scared. She continued to lie because she didn't think she would be convicted.
6. There was no break in, RS and AK staged it after they came down off their high and realized what happened.

 

[Alt+F4]

You are completely missing the point. It has been argued that Amanda and Raffaele were caught off guard by the postal police arriving. You know the argument, they run off and hide and call the police after the postals arrive. It has all been proven wrong already. But for those that refuse to believe that they actually called the police before the postals arrived, the fact that they immediately invited the postals into the house is another sign that they had nothing to hide. They wanted the police there. That is the main point. Amanda and Raffaele wanted the police at the cottage. That would not be the expected behavior of two people who were guilty and had something to hide.

Bruce, it's you that is comletely missing the point. I never argued that Raffaele called his sister and the Carbinieri after the Postal Police arrived. I totally believe he made those two (or three) calls first, then the Postal Police arrived. You seem to be saying that if they had something to hide they would have kept the Postal Police outside and just have taken back the phones. If they did that they knew they would be caught. How could you turn the police away when you just called them to come and investigate a burglary?

They had to invite the Postal Police inside not because they had nothing to hide but rather because they had no more opportunity to hide.

 

[Alt+F4]

The "evidence" is that she did make a distinction. Your argument implies simply, without any basis, that she is either a liar or refers to all black men as North African.

Nope. I'm just asking how did she know that the man she saw "North African"?

 

[RoseMontague]

So, by my reckoning, over just the past six weeks or so, this thread has been able to make significant headway into the following areas:

1) The front door situation (it appears that keys were needed to open the door even from the inside, and that the door needed to be locked with the key since the latch had been disabled)

2) The problems with LCN DNA analysis, as it applies to both the knife and the bra clasp (Stefanoni was pushing for particular (and known) results in a lab with insufficient LCN ant-contamination measures, no control samples, and seemingly no accreditation)

3) The injuries (or lack thereof) to Knox (implying that the so-called "mixed-DNA" evidence from the bathroom is worthless, since there appears to be no evidence that Knox bled from any struggle-related contact)

4) The shoeprint evidence in the murder room (shown to very likely to be exclusively made by Guede's tennis shoe, thereby removing another piece of evidence placing Knox in the room at the time of the crime)

5) The testimony of both Quintavalle and Curatolo (so many inconsistencies, confusion over dates, conflict with others, length of time before "remembering", assistance in coming forward from journalists)

6) The timing of the 2 November phone calls (almost certainly made before the postal police showed up, negating a prosecution argument that they were made when the police were already in the house as some sort of alibi-creation strategy)

7) The movements and activities of Meredith's cellphones on the night of 1 November (the aborted call home just before 21.00 followed by the fact that she never tried to call again, the strange and out-of-character terminated calls to her UK voicemail and her UK bank, the registration at around 22.15 of the cellphones with cell masts situated on the route to where the phones were dumped)

8) The reasoned interpretation of the autopsy report (Meredith still had undigested pizza from an 18.00-18.30 meal in her stomach, heavily implying that death occurred within 2-3 hours of this meal - i.e. before 21.30 at the latest)

9) A reasoned discussion of hard drug usage (either the pair were not habitual users of any controlled substance other than cannabis, or they were hard-drug users and the police failed to find evidence of it in their investigation)

10) Plenty of documented evidence supporting the position that Knox may have been coerced and bullied into supplying a false confession/allegation

11) A reasoned discussion of Guede's possible level of sole participation (how and why Guede might have had the motive, means and opportunity to enter the house alone, how and why his faeces ended up unflushed in the toilet, how and why he might have searched for Meredith's keys in order to be able to exit the house via the front door rather than via the window, how and why he might have simply pulled the front door shut behind him, rather than stopping to lock it).

And I'm pretty sure there are more areas than these - they just don't spring to mind right now. Pretty good going, though, for a thread that many others wish to see either shut down or wither and die. To my mind, there's only one place right now where a serious and intelligent debate is taking place about this crime.

A good summary LJ. Thanks.

 

[christianahannah]

So, by my reckoning, over just the past six weeks or so, this thread has been able to make significant headway into the following areas:

1) The front door situation (it appears that keys were needed to open the door even from the inside, and that the door needed to be locked with the key since the latch had been disabled)

2) The problems with LCN DNA analysis, as it applies to both the knife and the bra clasp (Stefanoni was pushing for particular (and known) results in a lab with insufficient LCN ant-contamination measures, no control samples, and seemingly no accreditation)

3) The injuries (or lack thereof) to Knox (implying that the so-called "mixed-DNA" evidence from the bathroom is worthless, since there appears to be no evidence that Knox bled from any struggle-related contact)

4) The shoeprint evidence in the murder room (shown to very likely to be exclusively made by Guede's tennis shoe, thereby removing another piece of evidence placing Knox in the room at the time of the crime)

5) The testimony of both Quintavalle and Curatolo (so many inconsistencies, confusion over dates, conflict with others, length of time before "remembering", assistance in coming forward from journalists)

6) The timing of the 2 November phone calls (almost certainly made before the postal police showed up, negating a prosecution argument that they were made when the police were already in the house as some sort of alibi-creation strategy)

7) The movements and activities of Meredith's cellphones on the night of 1 November (the aborted call home just before 21.00 followed by the fact that she never tried to call again, the strange and out-of-character terminated calls to her UK voicemail and her UK bank, the registration at around 22.15 of the cellphones with cell masts situated on the route to where the phones were dumped)

8) The reasoned interpretation of the autopsy report (Meredith still had undigested pizza from an 18.00-18.30 meal in her stomach, heavily implying that death occurred within 2-3 hours of this meal - i.e. before 21.30 at the latest)

9) A reasoned discussion of hard drug usage (either the pair were not habitual users of any controlled substance other than cannabis, or they were hard-drug users and the police failed to find evidence of it in their investigation)

10) Plenty of documented evidence supporting the position that Knox may have been coerced and bullied into supplying a false confession/allegation

11) A reasoned discussion of Guede's possible level of sole participation (how and why Guede might have had the motive, means and opportunity to enter the house alone, how and why his faeces ended up unflushed in the toilet, how and why he might have searched for Meredith's keys in order to be able to exit the house via the front door rather than via the window, how and why he might have simply pulled the front door shut behind him, rather than stopping to lock it).

And I'm pretty sure there are more areas than these - they just don't spring to mind right now. Pretty good going, though, for a thread that many others wish to see either shut down or wither and die. To my mind, there's only one place right now where a serious and intelligent debate is taking place about this crime.

To view the above points in the light of the motivations (along with court testimony) will render some moot, some will have no basis as the motivations did not give them the weight they were given here, and some are agreed upon in the report.

The question is still out on who wanted the thread to shut down or die. And there are still many others places to go where a serious and intelligent debate is taking place about this crime.

 

[RoseMontague]

I would like to add to your summary LJ, the translation Katy_did presented regarding that tapped phone call of Amanda's on 4 November where she said she had already been shouted at and felt she was treated like a criminal. I think that issue is also significant.

I had previously listed some of the things I feel will happen regarding the appeals. In light of your summary, I think I will expand on that list.

1. Testing of the possible semen stain on the pillowcase. There is no reason this should not have been tested when the defense expert pointed out this rather obvious piece of evidence.
2. Testing of the computers. There is no reason this should not have been allowed by the court.
3. New testimony regarding Curatolo's statements that the defense is asking for should be allowed.
4. Review and retesting by new court appointed expert regarding the bra clasp DNA evidence. Unfortunately, I give this one only about even odds of being allowed. It is of course, hugely important.
5. Testing of the undigested piece of food found during autopsy (mushroom or apple?).

6. There are many legal arguments made that will be reviewed and many of the decisions made by the court during this process will be reconsidered. The concurrent murder trial with the slander of Patrick is one of those big issues. After reading the Massei report it is obvious to me at least that the court considered this evidence quite heavily in making a decision in the murder case.

7 The changing of the means,method, and motives of the actual assault and murder is another of those big issues. How could the defense have possibly contested this if it was only presented after the trial was done.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

How do you know it has been translated properly if you don't speak Italian yourself?

Bruce, perhaps you and other posters who think AK is 100% innocent could explain something to me. Why is it that just because folks think AK is innocent that also must mean that RS is innocent too?

I for one am perfectly happy to consider the two cases separately, however the simplest defence narrative (that Rudy Guede did it all by himself while Amanda and Raffaele spend the night at Raffaele's place) doesn't involve either of them participating in the crime.

If either one did it by themselves, you've got to create some incredibly weird scenario where that person sneaked out of Raffaele's place while the other was asleep, possibly grabbing a kitchen knife along the way, scooted over to Amanda's house, got high with Rudy who they didn't even know, murdered Meredith, disposed of their bloody clothes leaving no trace, and sneaked back to bed without the other one noticing anything amiss.

Such a story would also have to chuck out some treasured pieces of the prosecution story, like the witnesses who claimed to have seen the two of them out on the town on the night of the murder. However once you chuck those witnesses' statements out, there's scarcely any reason left to have either of AK and RS involved in the murder at all. I think every claimed link between them and the murder other than those witness statements and the DNA evidence has bitten the dust already.

By all indications RS can barely speak or write in his own language. What do AK's supporters really know about this man? For goodness sake, even she barely knew him.

If AK's supporters would open their eyes they would see that the evidence against him is much stronger than against her. Continuing to treat them as if they are the same person will only result in AK spending many, many years in prison for a murder she probably didn't commit.

I don't think this pet theory of yours has a single scrap of positive evidence to support it, unless I've missed something. Is it based on anything at all other than the bra clasp DNA evidence? What is this evidence that is "much stronger"?

 

[Alt+F4]

I will ask Candace if a correction has been made by her since that time.

While you're talking with her could you tell her that MK's murder isn't "Eat, Pray, Love gone horribly wrong" or "Under The Tuscan Sun on the dark side" (her descriptions, not mine).

I mean, come on! Has she even read those books?

For the purposes of clarity I will now state that Roman Holiday, A Bell For Adano, The Bicycle Theif, Cinema Paradiso, and La Dolce Vita also bear no similarity what so ever to this case.

 

[Kestrel]

Yes, I disagree with the translation from 2008. I will ask Candace if a correction has been made by her since that time.

It has been translated properly and Raffaele said "some blood"

There is another issue with Raffaele's call to 112. Most of the press reports say he called to report a burglary. The Massei report claims he called to report a theft. But if you read the transcripts of the call, it becomes clear that what he said is a bit different.

Raffaele called to report the circumstances he had discovered. A broken window, some blood, a missing girl and a locked door. When asked if anything was stolen, he said no.

The logic some are using seems to be that Raffaele called to report a burglary, but nothing was stolen so Raffele is a liar. Since he lied, it must be part of a cover up. Therefore he is a murderer.

 

[quadraginta]

Oh no, I defer to your extensive hands-on experience of installing locks into doors, and supervising others who do the same. That's perhaps why I'm surprised that you can't use all your knowledge and experience to show us a Corbin domestic lockset which resembles the one installed in the girls' house, and where the key operates both the deadbolt and the spring latch. Surely an expert would have no difficulty in quickly locating such a lockset, if one existed? That's all I'm asking for.

First you expressed disbelief that such a function existed at all, based on your extensive analysis of a big box DIY store web catalog. Then I showed you an example of a lock with precisely that function.

This you derided as a "special purpose" lock. I attempted to explain to you that such was not the case, and that its name was simply part of a vernacular with which you are unfamiliar. I went into no small amount of detail in an attempt to enlighten you about some of the common practices in lockset manufacture and application.

I also pointed out, as did Dan O., that without a specific model number for the lockset in question that it could be difficult to find an on-line source to establish any particulars about it. I also explained that since this application is far from uncommon it isn't needful in the first place.

If you really are actually interested in the subject I suggest that you consult a local locksmith or dedicated door hardware supplier (not a consumer DIY store clerk) and ask them if they can supply you with a residential entry door mortise lockset which operates both latch and deadbolt with the key.

I suspect you will find that they are quite unchallenged by the prospect.

Make it tough for them. Tell them you want it to be a Corbin. This will likely add entire minutes (or less) to their search.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

First you expressed disbelief that such a function existed at all, based on your extensive analysis of a big box DIY store web catalog. Then I showed you an example of a lock with precisely that function.

This you derided as a "special purpose" lock. I attempted to explain to you that such was not the case, and that its name was simply part of a vernacular with which you are unfamiliar. I went into no small amount of detail in an attempt to enlighten you about some of the common practices in lockset manufacture and application.

I also pointed out, as did Dan O., that without a specific model number for the lockset in question that it could be difficult to find an on-line source to establish any particulars about it. I also explained that since this application is far from uncommon it isn't needful in the first place.

If you really are actually interested in the subject I suggest that you consult a local locksmith or dedicated door hardware supplier (not a consumer DIY store clerk) and ask them if they can supply you with a residential entry door mortise lockset which operates both latch and deadbolt with the key.

I suspect you will find that they are quite unchallenged by the prospect.

Make it tough for them. Tell them you want it to be a Corbin. This will likely add entire minutes (or less) to their search.

It seems to me that you are ducking a vital part of the challenge put to you.

LondonJohn asked for a Corbin domestic lockset which resembles the one installed in the girls' house, and where the key operates both the deadbolt and the spring latch.

In response you assert (without evidence) that you can go to any locksmith get a Corbin domestic lockset where the key operates both the deadbolt and the spring latch.

Why don't you do that last little bit of work and (a) show that such a system exists and (b) show that it resembles the one installed in the girls' house?

 

[christianahannah]

I don't see how it is possible that this print can be attributed to Amanda. However the Motivations report seems to take another path, implying that the print in question may be a combination of Amanda's bare footprint and Rudi's shoeprint. Perhaps I am reading this incorrectly based on the Google translation. If I am not, that would seem to me to be a bizarre way to interpret this evidence. Google and original Italian translation to follow.

I believe the passage is stating Amanda moved about the crime scene barefoot (not that the print in question is a combination of Amanda's barefoot print and Rudy's shoeprint).

 

[Kestrel]

So, by my reckoning, over just the past six weeks or so, this thread has been able to make significant headway into the following areas:And I'm pretty sure there are more areas than these - they just don't spring to mind right now. Pretty good going, though, for a thread that many others wish to see either shut down or wither and die. To my mind, there's only one place right now where a serious and intelligent debate is taking place about this crime.

We established something else that is important. The Massei report's claim that smoking hashish, watching dirty movies and reading sexually explicit comic books led to AK and RS participation in the murder is completely ludicrous.