Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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christianahannah said:
Concerning Laura's testimony and the scratch - seems as if the media has two versions of what her testimony was in reference to the time frame of her mentioning the scratch (maybe by November it is meant November 2008?).
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A scratch requires broken skin. Do you think the police mistook a cut for a hickey? Also, wouldn't it be quite likely that Amanda would want to hide something as incriminating as a cut from view at all possible costs and that merely wearing a scarf or even make-up would have accomplished that?
 
Alt+F4 said:
Drugs don't react the same in everyone and there is no evidence that either AK or RS sexually assulted MK.


People have a tendency to not broadcast their illegal drug usage.


I agree and again, if they were using drugs harder than weed they would have kept it secret.
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But competent investigators have a tendency to unearth evidence of illegal drug usage. For example, drug users have to obtain their drugs from someone, and the police usually have a decent tap into the drug dealer network. I'm sure that a few of the local coke/crack/meth/LSD/ecstasy dealers could have been easily "persuaded" to give up the goods on Knox and/or Sollecito, in return for certain favours or leniency.

And, conveniently for competent investigators, drug users usually leave traces of their habit around and about. I'm pretty certain that the police recovered nether any paraphernalia nor residues (let alone stashes) from Sollecito's apartment or Knox's room after their arrests. And a trained sniffer drug would easily be able to give a fairly definitive answer to those sorts of questions as well.

Don't you think it's interesting that Knox and Sollecito readily admitted to the regular use of cannabis - a habit that was shared by Meredith and the boys downstairs - but that seemingly no evidence was ever uncovered which indicated their indulgence in harder drugs? Don't you think it's possible that dirty little rumours about hard drug use might just be falsely circulating after prosecutors and their followers realised that a toke on a spliff was not likely to send anyone off on a murderous rampage, even if coupled with "hard liquor"?
 
Malkmus said:
A scratch requires broken skin. Do you think the police mistook a cut for a hickey? Also, wouldn't it be quite likely that Amanda would want to hide something as incriminating as a cut from view at all possible costs and that merely wearing a scarf or even make-up would have accomplished that?
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Where are the police photographs showing Knox's neck, which presumably would have been taken shortly after her arrest at the latest? And where are the police photographs showing any evidence of an earring being pulled out of Knox's ear during some form of struggle? Wouldn't these photographs have been entered in evidence if they had any probative value whatsoever? So I'm wondering where they are. If someone can produce them, we can have a decent discussion. If not, then we can safely assume for the time being that there was no evidence of either neck scratches or torn ear piercings.
 
Alt+F4 said:
Ok, but I think the attempts to overlook the evidence when it comes to the blood in the bathroom is very telling. The photographs, the Postal Police, Filomena and her friends all agreed that there was very little blood in the bathroom, yet both AK (in her call to Filomena) and RS (in his call to the Carabiniere) said there was a lot of blood. The evidence is very clear that they knew there was much blood....in MK's room.
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You are mistaken. Raffaele said "there is some blood"

I know you are trying to take that leap and insinuate that Amanda and Raffaele slipped up and were actually talking about the murder room. That is a giant leap that isn't supported by any evidence.
 
Postal Police

It has already been established that Raffaele phoned the Police before the Postal Police arrived. I know there are still some posters that don't believe that but it was accepted by the court.

So the evidence shows that the Police were called before the Postal Police arrived. This would show that Amanda and Raffaele were not surprised and caught off guard by the arrival of the Postal Police. In fact the opposite was true, Amanda and Raffaele wanted the police at the cottage.

Another aspect that shows Amanda and Raffaele weren't caught off guard it the fact that they invited the Postal Police into the cottage to show them the broken window and the blood in the bathroom.

When the Postal Police arrived, Amanda and Raffaele were outside.

If Amanda and Raffaele were surprised by the Postal Police they would have made sure that the conversation occurred outside. They would have discussed the phones with them outside the cottage and the Postal Police would have left. There would have been no sign of anything wrong at the cottage to lead the Postal Police to want to take a look around. Amanda and Raffaele could have said they were the only one's home and the Postal Police would have taken the phones back to the station or may have even left them with Amanda to give back to Meredith. There was absolutely no emergency at that point as far as the Postal Police were concerned.
 
Malkmus said:
This is a rather weak argument from incredulity. Simply because you can't different between certain ethnicities is no evidence whatsoever that Ms. Formica could not, especially considering it was just explained to you that there is an obvious distinction.
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So you have no evidence that Ms. Formica could distinguish a "North African" from any other man of African descent. Thanks.
 
LondonJohn said:
Your arguments are now entering the realms of pure nonsense. You might want to stop there.
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Please provide evidence that Ms. Formica can tell the difference between a man from North Africa and a man from South Africa.

Oh, that's right, you can't. You might want to stop there.
 
LondonJohn said:
But competent investigators have a tendency to unearth evidence of illegal drug usage.
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For someone like Amanda Knox, who had been living in Perguia for two months? Aren't the Perugia police supposed to be incompetent investigators anyway, right?

For example, drug users have to obtain their drugs from someone, and the police usually have a decent tap into the drug dealer network.
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Which is it, the Perguia police are incompetent or not? It seems that those who think AK and RS are innocent want to paint the Perugia police as incompetent when it comes to a murder investigation, but totally competent when it comes to the drug scene, knowing every dealer and addict.

Don't you think it's interesting that Knox and Sollecito readily admitted to the regular use of cannabis - a habit that was shared by Meredith and the boys downstairs - but that seemingly no evidence was ever uncovered which indicated their indulgence in harder drugs?
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It was you that said the under 30 crowd doesn't consider weed a big deal, no need to hide it's use. As for harder drugs, people who do them are more likely to hide it/lie about it.

Don't you think it's possible that dirty little rumours about hard drug use might just be falsely circulating...
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Evidence?
 
Alt+F4 said:
So you have no evidence that Ms. Formica could distinguish a "North African" from any other man of African descent. Thanks.
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Really. Please. You're not doing your arguments any favours - rather you're showing yourself to be stubborn and unwilling to deal with a perfectly logical and reasonable counter-argument.

The ethnic term "North African" is a recognised and recognisable definition, particularly within Southern Europe which has geographican proximity to the Mediterranean North African nations. And please understand that "North African" is not used here as a definition of geographic origin - i.e. she is not claiming that this man was a citizen of a North African country. This man might have lived his entire life in Perugia, for all we know. In the same way, the vast majority of "African-Americans" have never been anywhere near Africa - it's an ethnic definition, and not a geographic one.

So yes, I (and others) am strongly suggesting that Ms Formica at least knew how to tell the difference between the ethnic grouping "North African" and, at the very least, the generalised ethnic grouping "Black sub-Saharan African" (which would include many variant tribal ethnic variations), as well as "Black Horn of Africa" (Somalia, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Sudan). In addition to many pronounced differences in facial features, ethnic North Africans also have a very light brown skin tone.

As an example, Libyan leader Colonel Gaddafi is an ethnic North African. Google a picture of him, then come back and tell us all if you'd mistake him for a sub-Saharan black African. Here's his Wikipedia entry to help you along:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muammar_al-Gaddafi
 
Alt+F4 said:
So you have no evidence that Ms. Formica could distinguish a "North African" from any other man of African descent. Thanks.
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The "evidence" is that she did make a distinction. Your argument implies simply, without any basis, that she is either a liar or refers to all black men as North African. Many of the witnesses in this case have come under heavy scrutiny for very legitimate reasons, this is not one. You've shown no reason to cast doubt on this witness. But if you want to argue that she is unreliable, the onus is on you to provide evidence of such. You need to show that it is highly unlikely that she would be able to make such a distinction.
 
LondonJohn said:
Where are the police photographs showing Knox's neck, which presumably would have been taken shortly after her arrest at the latest? And where are the police photographs showing any evidence of an earring being pulled out of Knox's ear during some form of struggle? Wouldn't these photographs have been entered in evidence if they had any probative value whatsoever? So I'm wondering where they are. If someone can produce them, we can have a decent discussion. If not, then we can safely assume for the time being that there was no evidence of either neck scratches or torn ear piercings.
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It's my belief that Amanda never actively participated in the murder. I believe her when she said she covered her ears to stop from hearing Meredith's screams.
 
Bruce Fisher said:
Another aspect that shows Amanda and Raffaele weren't caught off guard it the fact that they invited the Postal Police into the cottage to show them the broken window and the blood in the bathroom.
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They had little choice at that point except to invite the postal police inside. Raffaele had already called his sister and the Carabinieri. How could he explain not allowing the first police on the scene inside when he had just call the police to come?
 
LondonJohn said:
Does being a locksmith require a university/college degree these days then?
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Not on this side of the pond. I have no idea about where you are.

Maybe an analogy might help. An auto mechanic who has spent years being paid to actually work on numerous different kinds of vehicles and to supervise others doing the same can reasonably be expected to have a broader and deeper knowledge of the subject than someone who took a few minutes to leaf through some magazine ads and look at the pretty pictures. All this even without the need for a university degree.

Or do you find fault with that as well?
 
Alt+F4 said:
Then I take it you disagree with Candace Dempsey's translation of the call? She said Raffaele said, "there is a lot of blood". She speaks Italian. Do you?

Linky: http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/month.asp?blogmonth=10/1/2008
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Candace is American. I'll take the translation of an actual Italian over hers. This is the post from PMF by Clander:

I listened to the tape again.
I think that in one of my very first posts on PMF I mentioned how poor RS's Italian is (just by listening to his calls to the Carabinieri).
It's so poor that the translators had a hard time understanding the tape.
Anyway, that is the least of his worries right now...

RS never says "there is alot of blood" (c'è un mucchio di sangue).
This is the phone call with the *wrong* transcript:
http://www.youreporter.it/video_Solleci ... totitolata

At 00:34, RS does not say "c'è un mucchio di sangue" (there is alot of blood). RS says"c'è (u)na macchia di sangue" (there is a bloodstain).
Also, if you listen carefully, at 00:28, RS says "c'è GOCCE" (there *IS* drops).
And the word "drops" is never in any transcript. But it's there.

It's all "drops" and "stains".
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http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=223&p=43225&hilit=drops#p43225
 
Alt+F4 said:
It's my belief that Amanda never actively participated in the murder. I believe her when she said she covered her ears to stop from hearing Meredith's screams.
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Yes, I'd agree that there has to be serious doubt about Knox entering the murder room and stabbing Meredith. I've listed the reason in a post above. What is more, I think there is a chance that the appeals court will see it this way.

Londonjohn, photos of the scratch and missing earings (bottom two on the left ear) are shown on PMF .... this has been done to death. If Knox wasn't involved in a struggle with Meredith, it is more than possible that Guede got hold of her and threaten her before they ran?. Knox was heard mumbling about 'him' at the police station, she blurted out a confession to the police, but replaced Guede with Patrick ... again, I think out of fear ... Guede was still on the loose at that time.

The male and female heard arguing at the cottage at approx 01:45 on 2nd Nov, I think were RS and AK, who had returned to the cottage and hadn't known for sure that Meredith was dead until that point. I think AK got RS to cover the body and lock the door .... a way to 'block it all out'.
 
Alt+F4 said:
They had little choice at that point except to invite the postal police inside. Raffaele had already called his sister and the Carabinieri. How could he explain not allowing the first police on the scene inside when he had just call the police to come?
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You are completely missing the point. It has been argued that Amanda and Raffaele were caught off guard by the postal police arriving. You know the argument, they run off and hide and call the police after the postals arrive. It has all been proven wrong already. But for those that refuse to believe that they actually called the police before the postals arrived, the fact that they immediately invited the postals into the house is another sign that they had nothing to hide. They wanted the police there. That is the main point. Amanda and Raffaele wanted the police at the cottage. That would not be the expected behavior of two people who were guilty and had something to hide.
 
Alt+F4 said:
For someone like Amanda Knox, who had been living in Perguia for two months? Aren't the Perugia police supposed to be incompetent investigators anyway, right?



Which is it, the Perguia police are incompetent or not? It seems that those who think AK and RS are innocent want to paint the Perugia police as incompetent when it comes to a murder investigation, but totally competent when it comes to the drug scene, knowing every dealer and addict.



It was you that said the under 30 crowd doesn't consider weed a big deal, no need to hide it's use. As for harder drugs, people who do them are more likely to hide it/lie about it.



Evidence?
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You're really on a roll here! What I'm suggesting (and I thought it was fairly obvious) is that either

a) there was no hard drug use, and the Perugia police did their job properly in this instance and could find no evidence of hard drug use,

or

b) there was hard drug use, but the Perugia police were incompetent and failed to find any evidence of it.

I believe that (a) is by far the most likely option, but that (b) is an outside possibility. Either way, it either reflects neutrally on Knox and Sollecito (option (a)), or it reflects badly - again - on the Perugia flying (crashing?) squad (option (b)).
 
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