Why do people insist AA is not religious?/Efficacy of AA & other treatment programs

[ponderingturtle]

But you are right: If one wants absolute proof I guess that can't be provided.
That said, I know that AA has helped me recover from my addictions, and I know this in much the same way that I know I love my wife and my children. But I guess you couldn't understand that either, huh? Love presumably being woo by your definition.

Strictly speaking you believe this, and you can find many people who claimed various things helped or cured them that could not have done so. It can be shown that even treatments that are actively detrimental to someones improvement can get people to believe very strongly in them.

If you enjoy AA, fine I really don't have a problem with it. If you have evidence that shows that it is highly effective I would like to see it. This fits into the kind of mental health work that is very woo prone for a variety of reasons.

 

[Dunstan]

Tradition Two is interesting:

For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority—a loving God as
He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but
trusted servants; they do not govern.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Tradition Two is interesting:

I assume you are pointing to the 'G' word.

I made it simple for myself: Everytime the 'G' word was mentioned, in my mind, I followed with "as we understood Him/It".

"As we understood Him" is clearly expressed in step three.

 

[Rasmus]

I assume you are pointing to the 'G' word.

I made it simple for myself: Everytime the 'G' word was mentioned, in my mind, I followed with "as we understood Him/It".

So you're very clearly making stuff up that is not there. Why?

"As we understood Him" is clearly expressed in step three.

But not in all other places, no matter what you may pretend.

Also, a god as we understand him is still a god. A male one, coincidentally.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Strictly speaking you believe this, and you can find many people who claimed various things helped or cured them that could not have done so. It can be shown that even treatments that are actively detrimental to someones improvement can get people to believe very strongly in them.

The word cured is an interesting one. Where I live (I can't speak for elsewhere), the vast majority of us do not believe we are cured. We are given a daily reprieve from the disease. Through fellowship and personal growth we remain sober.
If one has a 'bust' or relapse it is usually a very short time (if not immediately) that the alcoholic returns right back to where they previously were.
I proved this to myself some years ago: After a period of abstinence, I stopped AA meetings and at a work function I had three "social drinks". On the way home I brought a slab of beer and a bottle of scotch to celebrate my newfound success in my ability to drink responsibly. They were both gone by morning. It took me to deaths door again (literally), I found myself in hospital after my body broke down - I was 35. I went into rehab afterwards and then commiitted myself to recovery.

Does AA cure. No - I don't believe so.
Does it have the market cornered on recovery: No.
Do other things help? Pharmacotherapy, other self help groups etc. Yes.
Does AA help. Absolutely - It is constant reminder therapy and social support (among other things).

In that sense, it works and religion has nothing to do with recovery.
Can I prove it? Not really, but I don't need to: the thousands that I personally know that get assistance from one another are proof enough for me.

 

[Elizabeth I]

The word cured is an interesting one. Where I live (I can't speak for elsewhere), the vast majority of us do not believe we are cured. We are given a daily reprieve from the disease. Through fellowship and personal growth we remain sober.
If one has a 'bust' or relapse it is usually a very short time (if not immediately) that the alcoholic returns right back to where they previously were.
I proved this to myself some years ago: After a period of abstinence, I stopped AA meetings and at a work function I had three "social drinks". On the way home I brought a slab of beer and a bottle of scotch to celebrate my newfound success in my ability to drink responsibly. They were both gone by morning. It took me to deaths door again (literally), I found myself in hospital after my body broke down - I was 35. I went into rehab afterwards and then commiitted myslef to AA and recovery.

Does AA cure. No!
Does it help. Absolutely - It is constant reminder therapy and social support (among other things).

In that sense, it works and religion has nothing to do with recovery.
Can I prove it? Not really, but I don't need to: the thousands that I personally know that get assistance from one another are proof enough for me.

If some sort of medication were developed that would break your addiction and allow you to drink moderately, would you take it?

 

[Hallo Alfie]

So you're very clearly making stuff up that is not there. Why?

Explain please. What am I making up?
And even if I was, is there a rule in AA that says I can't?

But not in all other places, no matter what you may pretend.

You patently do not know what you are talking about. The term "As we understood Him" is seen time and again throughout the literature.

Also, a god as we understand him is still a god. A male one, coincidentally.

I see, so you are offended by some perceived sexism. LOL - poor thing.
You are applying today's values against those of generations ago, when the step was written.

The other part is the God word - this has been explained over and over. Your lack of understanding or acceptance of this is not my problem.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

If some sort of medication were developed that would break your addiction and allow you to drink moderately, would you take it?

Great question and one I wrestled with a lot early on.
If I could drink in safety (safety being a 'relative' term), then I probably would. Until then.....

 

[Rasmus]

Explain please. What am I making up?
And even if I was, is there a rule in AA that says I can't?

The words "as we understand him" in places where they are not written.

You patently do not know what you are talking about. The term "As we understood Him" is seen time and again throughout the literature.

I did not suggest anything different. Maybe you should learn how to read?

I see, so you are offended by some perceived sexism. LOL - poor thing.
You are applying today's values against those of generations ago, when the step was written.

No, I am just seeing that "god as we understood him" is in itself restricted in more than just one way. It has nothing to do with sexism and a lot with seeing that AA is religious.

The other part is the God word - this has been explained over and over. Your lack of understanding or acceptance of this is not my problem.

Is this about rocks and doorknobs again?

 

[Hallo Alfie]

The words "as we understand him" in places where they are not written.

I see, in your world reduntant repetition is required.

No, I am just seeing that "god as we understood him" is in itself restricted in more than just one way. It has nothing to do with sexism and a lot with seeing that AA is religious.

Interestingly others see this 'restriction' of yours as liberating. "As we understood Him" allows one to move to wherever they want with this concept.
You really are a stckler for wanting to find rules where there are none.

Is this about rocks and doorknobs again?

Whatever rocks your boat pal. If it works for someone, they should keep using it. I have yet to see someone use a doorknob, I know one indigenous friend of mine has a higher power connected to Uluru (which is a really really big rock).
I would suggest that most non theists among us use the fellowship itself as their higher power
(Group Of Drunks. And this "power greater than ourselves can restore us to sanity"

I know you find lateral thinkng difficult, you might start to get it if you keep trying.

 

[Pup]

Why is the word "Him" specifically chosen instead of either "it" or "him or her or it"?

Also, what if a person's understanding of god doesn't include a belief that this god expresses himself in the group conscience?

It would seem so much simpler to just say that AA has the Judeo-Christian God as a default but that members are welcome even if they don't believe in that, rather than to expect each member to torture the words to stretch their meaning.

 

[Rasmus]

I see, in your world reduntant repetition is required.

No, the thing is that in my world: Words have meanings.

there are plenty of references to an apparently male God, with the occasional admittance that there might be different ways of perceiving that deity.

Interestingly others see this 'restriction' of yours as liberating. "As we understood Him" allows one to move to wherever they want with this concept.

That might work for analphabets anonymous, maybe. It dioesn't work for a higher power that is frequently referenced as a male god.

You really are a stckler for wanting to find rules where there are none.

I just happen to how how to read. And I read what is written and not what I want to be there.

Whatever rocks your boat pal. If it works for someone, they should keep using it.

as long as it is a male higher power that can reasonably called "God", yes. I don't care if you consider that a "rule" - but it is what it says. You might be happy ignoring that, but it doesn't change that those are words used.

I have yet to see someone use a doorknob, I know one indigenous friend of mine has a higher power connected to Uluru (which is a really really big rock).

Weasel words ... what does "connected to" mean?

I would suggest that most non theists among us use the fellowship itself as their higher power
(Group Of Drunks. And this "power greater than ourselves can restore us to sanity"

That is not a reasonable interpretation of "higher power". It is not how that term is commonly used or udnerstood - outside of AA apologetics, as it seems.

I know you find lateral thinkng difficult, you might start to get it if you keep trying.

Lateral thinking: twisting the words that are there, ignoring some and inventing others. Yes, I do find that difficult and, no, I am not going to try it. What would be the point? Why would I want to convince myself that AA is not religious despite all its references to god? I might as well try and make myself believe that what they do is actually helping anyone in any significant way. And you haven't shown any evidence for that, either.

 

[Tinyal]

AAAlfie

A.A.Alfie, do I have to go and repeat/expound further on the dozens and dozens of times both the big book and the 12x12 specifically refer to 'God' or 'Him' in ways that are clearly religious (and specifically xian).

Do I have to go and completely dismantle Chapter 4 'To The Agnostic', and demonstrate from A.A's core material (re: Dogma) where Bill W. purposefully claims one cannot either get - or stay - sober without faith in 'He who is our Father - we who are his Children' (direct Bill W quote of course) - where he insidiously compares atheists to sick people (and solid god-fearing folks to sober well adjusted individuals) at the same time he clearly shows he understands neither the word agnostic, nor the word atheist?

Do I have to start quoting Dr. Bob where he states his true feelings about atheists?

Do I have to repeat the fact that I am speaking about the A.A. program (taken only from it's own documents) - not some off the wall non-AA program you've invented (which - lucky you! - you've discovered/created at the same time you decided to quit) , cobbled together from parts of AA and who knows what else? You've been speaking of your own program, not the A.A. program this entire time. The OP is about AA , not your personal program.

Do I have to mention that roughly 50% of the 100 orginal members of AA died from alcholol related causes - or died drunk? (Hint - I'll speak of AA's maximum 5% success rate again a bit later). Very few AA members realize this - and none are ever told that by anyone in AA, or their sponsors.

Do I have to go into detail on George Valiant's study where he concluded AA has about a 5% success rate? (you do know who George was yes? - one of AA's non-alcholoic Trustees, one of the men at the top of AA's well organized structure)

Do I have to mention the direct relationship and similarities between the nutcases in the Oxford group and their 5C's, and AA's 12 steps - and how Bill got from one to the other?

Do I have to mention (again) how many 1000's of AA meetings I've attended (hint over 7000), the fact that I still attend AA both at the group & area level, how long I've been sober (elsewhere in my posts you find it if you're curious)? Must I mention how many Area meetings I've attended, how many Regional conferences? (hint - and at how many I've been ostracized from due to my expressing that it isn't necessary to find god or any higher power to get and stay sober)?

Let me repeat for the hard-of-comprehending: AA, as written in the core of AA's material , is clearly religious, clearly meets every single definition of a religious cult, clearly attempts to force the Judeachristian god on it's members, clearly reminds it's members they will die, or go to jail, or go to an insane house if they don't get-and maintain daily -contact with (christian) god.

Your group(s) may not be overtly christian nor overly religious (I doubt that - but it's possible) but your experience - divorced as it is from the actual as-written AA program- does not speak to the fact that AA - as written and practiced by 100's of thousands, perhaps a few millions, of people both promotes the (particularly) christian view of god and is at it's core is religious. AA's material meets the definition of a religious cult.

My next long (sorry!) post - might take me a few days to organize it - will take widely accepted definitions of what is a religious cult and compare that to AA - I'm sure you'll find it an interesting read.

 

[marplots]

Tinyal, you seem well informed, can you answer the OP question:

Why do people insist AA is not religious?

You've made (and propose to continue to make) a strong case that AA is religious in nature, but why then do people (as demonstrated in this thread if nowhere else) insist it is not?

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Your group(s) may not be overtly christian nor overly religious (I doubt that - but it's possible) but your experience - divorced as it is from the actual as-written AA program- does not speak to the fact that AA - as written and practiced by 100's of thousands, perhaps a few millions, of people both promotes the (particularly) christian view of god and is at it's core is religious. AA's material meets the definition of a religious cult.

No doubt you doubt this Christian/overly religious group attitude by virtue of your country of origin. The word God, it seems to me - polarises you USAians more than anywhere else in the world.
The easy going nature of Australians simply means we don't give a toss whether one believes or not.

Sure, there are some religious overtones in the literature and elsewhere.
I have friends in AA (many in fact) that have far more sobriety than any of the early members including Bill and Bob. They have made their way through sobriety using whatever tools they wanted - rejecting others. Some are religious, some agnostic, some atheist but all agree they are spiritual.

They have had more experience here than any - why wouldn't I seek some guidance from these guys. They are not priests, they are coaches, mentors etc. I seek guidance from them in the same way I would seek guidance from my father, my boss,

I go to AA to tap into rooms filled with life coaches today, not so much form my sobriety which (a day at a time) is being managed.

btw, I was unaware we were talking of a cult however I posted a few prerequisites of a cult earlier which are not met in my opnion. Yours differs, I respect that but I disagree.

And the fact is - as I've said repeatedly: AA is not a "cure" and it does not work for all.
Alcohol kills alcoholics. Many do die, many don't, but many get a daily reprieve through AA, religious or not - and that can't be a bad thing.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Tinyal, you seem well informed, can you answer the OP question:

Why do people insist AA is not religious?

You've made (and propose to continue to make) a strong case that AA is religious in nature, but why then do people (as demonstrated in this thread if nowhere else) insist it is not?

Tinyal, could you also explain why you keep going to AA if you dislike the 'religious' aspect and its supposed cultish overtones?

 

[Delvo]

Nevermind the religion question... if it's "anonymous", why do they introduce themselves?

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Nevermind the religion question... if it's "anonymous", why do they introduce themselves?

"Hi, I'm Alfie and I'm an alcoholic".
The use of only a first name is easier in many ways than say:
"Hi, I'm member number 10,427,241 and I'm an alcoholic".

By the way, we only use first names. That said, I can give my full name to anyone I like - a bit like this anonymous forum in some ways - boogedy boogedy.


Seriously though: Anonymity is maintained to protect both the individual, as well as the fellowship as a whole.

Tradition 11 says.
"Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films."

Tradition 12
"Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities."

 

[GrandMasterFox]

Explain please.

A fallacy is, very generally, an error in reasoning.
Which usually leads to any form of ilogical way of thinking or conducting an intelectual debate.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

You have demonstrated the use of several of them throughout this thread.
You might want to take a few moments and go over the list to not only learn to avoid them, but to spot it when others try and fool you with them.

Yep, there are two group in JREF generally: the narrow minded, sexually frustrated with anger issues wishing to vent their spleens. And the rest of us try who try and be adults.

Ummm... No.That's just Dishonest BS and it's the second time you are attacking the person rather than the argument (even more fallacies).

The JREF's goal is to promote critical thinking and educate people from pseuoscienses and all manners of false dogmas based on fraud or ignorance.
From false psychics to false alternative medicine.

If these things were abolished because they were not true or at least held by an extreme minority, the JREF would have no purpose. The goal would have been achieved and it would disappear.

As for your claim that we are "narrow minded"...
Psychological projection or projection bias (including Freudian Projection) is the unconscious act of denial of a person's own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, such as to the weather, a tool, or to other people. Thus, it involves imagining or projecting that others have those feelings.

How can we be close minded when we are the ones who are reading and comprehending your poor arguments and debunk each and every one of them?
We gave you ample of chances and methods to prove your claim, you failed every single time.

Whenever you are asked a question you don't like or have to read a statement you don't like, you are the one shoving fingers in your ears and go "la la la la la la la".
Again, not an uncommon tactic, but a dishonest one.
You are the one who is close minded. Not us.

But you are right: If one wants absolute proof I guess that can't be provided.

Wrong. We have offered you numerous ways of prooving it actually.
It can be done. Any form of "treatment" can be verified for it's effectiveness.
We don't ask you to prove us it works 100% of the time.
We just want proof that it works better than any other treatment including no treatment.

We asked you for the statistics, you completely ignored and dodged the issue.
We asked you to define the basics, you completely ignored and dodged the issue.

So instead you ask us to take AA by faith alone.
Yeah... That's not religious

That said, I know that AA has helped me recover from my addictions, and I know this in much the same way that I know I love my wife and my children.

No you do not know that. Period.
Let me give you an example. You go to a spirit healer because you have a headache. After the visit you are cured.
Was it because:
1)The spirit is an actual healer?
2)The guy works in a building that is built the tomb of a saint and simply entering the building cured you.
3)The headache was only temporary and faded on its own.

You can think all you want, but the fact of the matter is we can do a simple test to see what is the one.

The better question is - why are you so afraid to find out?

But I guess you couldn't understand that either, huh? Love presumably being woo by your definition.

More pitiful attempts at attacking people rather than arguments being said.
And you call us angry and bitter?

Does AA cure. No - I don't believe so.
Does it have the market cornered on recovery: No.
Do other things help? Pharmacotherapy, other self help groups etc. Yes.

Okay, finally some honesty here. So from now on, please never use the words "AA or die" as you have just stated yourself that is completely false.

Does AA help. Absolutely - It is constant reminder therapy and social support (among other things).

But does that mean it works?
You can remind a person with ADD to pay attention as much as you want. That's not going to help.

The fact that something is a "reminder" or "social support" does not by defnition mean it helps. Showing proof that it works would actually show it helps.

And the fact is - as I've said repeatedly: AA is not a "cure" and it does not work for all.

Nobody asked you to state that it works for all.
Just how many it actually does work for. Seriously, with your job why aren't you able to at least provide some form of verifiable statistics?

Alcohol kills alcoholics. Many do die, many don't, but many get a daily reprieve through AA, religious or not - and that can't be a bad thing.

But it can be a terrible thing!

Imagine that we have a cure for cancer. But it only works for 5% of the population. Do we call it quit? Heck No!
We do our best to examine and modify the treatment and make it as good as we can and we do not stop until we reach that 100% even if it will take forever.

Yet for some reason you seem convinced that AA works for some people that's good enough for you.
There should be no attempt to improve it, no attempt to test it and certinly no one should even attempt to alter it's holy bible.

 

[Complexity]

Alfie - You are not dealing with us or this topic honestly in your posts in this thread.

It is apparent that you value AA and what you feel it has done for you life.

I'm glad that you found something to help.

I'm angry, however, that you and many others deliberately misrepresent AA as not being religious. That dishonesty is inexcusable.