Why do people insist AA is not religious?/Efficacy of AA & other treatment programs

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tourmaline said:
Except if you are ordered by court to go. Plus there are some situations where its either AA or some sort of huge fine or something else equally bad. I have a good friend on mine that was required to go to AA for weed charges rather than pay a fine and have it on his record. This on his record would have meant loosing his job. He is an atheist and resented the higher power thing greatly.

And forgive my ignorance here Alfie but i always got the impression that spiritual was a water-downed idea term for a theist. Water-downed similar to some atheists calling themselves agnostic because it sounds like a less strong/ more open belief.
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I bet he resents getting caught more. I'm sure your atheist friend argued real hard with the judge:
Please, please let me pay the fine and lose my job, your honor! I can't go to AA! I might have to hear them talk about a higher power.
 
Malerin said:
I bet he resents getting caught more. I'm sure your atheist friend argued real hard with the judge:
Please, please let me pay the fine and lose my job, your honor! I can't go to AA! I might have to hear them talk about a higher power.
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I dont think he knew about the higher power at the time. He was stoked to get off light though. He didnt want to pick a higher power but quickly changed his mind after he found out he wouldnt get credit. So he identified himself as Alvian and his higher power was Alvis. I like his approach, if you cant beat em, mock em. Alvis bless us everyone.
 
tourmaline said:
I dont think he knew about the higher power at the time. He was stoked to get off light though. He didnt want to pick a higher power but quickly changed his mind after he found out he wouldnt get credit. So he identified himself as Alvian and his higher power was Alvis. I like his approach, if you cant beat em, mock em. Alvis bless us everyone.
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I guess he wasn't that resentful after all.
 
tourmaline said:
Except if you are ordered by court to go.
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A fair point too. That said, AA was up and running over there long before the court system got involved. I seriously doubt that its survival depends on court-ordered members.
And btw, (to the best of my knowledge), no-one is ordered to go AA in Australia - yet they still thrive here. Instead, the courts send their 'clients' to people like me (counsellors) to do Addiction Awareness/Lifeskill courses etc rather than AA.

tourmaline said:
And forgive my ignorance here Alfie but i always got the impression that spiritual was a water-downed idea term for a theist. Water-downed similar to some atheists calling themselves agnostic because it sounds like a less strong/ more open belief.
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Once upon a time, I might have thought the same way. Today I see the two as separate. That said, for the theists, they do go hand in glove.
 
Malerin said:
I bet he resents getting caught more. I'm sure your atheist friend argued real hard with the judge:
Please, please let me pay the fine and lose my job, your honor! I can't go to AA! I might have to hear them talk about a higher power.
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It is a bad vs. 'not available' option.

There is the separation of church and state, so it is valid to say I do not want to attend, it is a violation of some interpretations of the COTUS, however there are not enough secular groups around.

Facing court, I would even go to church, if it meant completing probation, that does not mean it would be legal.

BTW:

Many, many, many AA members are offensively religious.
 
A.A.Alfie said:
The irrefutable fact is that there are thousands and thousands of AA meetings worldwide. There are tens of thousands and thousands of happy customers. If it did not have some success, these meetings would close down. Yet they remain open to anyone that wants to have a go. There is no roll call at meetings and nothing is compulsory - you don't even have to put in the basket of you don't want to.
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Again this is wrong. Look at faith healers like Benny Hinn. He draws crowds of thousands, and makes millions off of them, and they keep coming back. So clearly he must be healing people by your argument here.

I don't care that you find AA something you want to do, it might even help people who wouldn't be helped by other methods, but you are making very bad arguments in favor of it.
 
A.A.Alfie said:
Ohh, Ouch!
How could I fail to be anything but impressed by such a well structured, considered and articulate argument.

The agnostics and atheists among us within AA have no issue with those that choose to use religion. We simply make a distinction between "religious" and "spiritual". It seems you and many don't like this interpretation.... meh.
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And again you are saying that UU is not a religion. It is clearly a spiritualism or something.
 
A.A.Alfie said:
And btw, (to the best of my knowledge), no-one is ordered to go AA in Australia - yet they still thrive here. Instead, the courts send their 'clients' to people like me (counsellors) to do Addiction Awareness/Lifeskill courses etc rather than AA.
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More fallacy

Also Known as: Ad Populum

Description of Appeal to Popularity
The Appeal to Popularity has the following form:

Most people approve of X (have favorable emotions towards X).
Therefore X is true.
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By this idiotic definition,
Jesus must be real cause plenty of people say the church helped them.
Xenu must be real cause plenty of scientologists say it helped them.
Same goes for homeopathy, astrology, palm readers, crystal healers, reflexologists and all that other mumbo jubmo.

If any woo garbage would have been obliterated if it were false, there would be no JREF to begin with. You do realize what the JREF is for, right?
 
GrandMasterFox said:
More fallacy
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Explain please.

GrandMasterFox said:
You do realize what the JREF is for, right?
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Yep, there are two group in JREF generally: the narrow minded, sexually frustrated with anger issues wishing to vent their spleens. And the rest of us try who try and be adults. :D

But you are right: If one wants absolute proof I guess that can't be provided.
That said, I know that AA has helped me recover from my addictions, and I know this in much the same way that I know I love my wife and my children. But I guess you couldn't understand that either, huh? Love presumably being woo by your definition.
 
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I've never been to an AA meeting-- kind of pointless, seeing as how I don't drink anyway. But I DO know how to use www.pubmed.gov!! People! Why hasn't anyone just gone there yet and just typed "alcoholics anonymous efficacy" into the search engine? (Besides me...) 63 results, 6 free full articles on PubMed Central. It's not that these are always the most perfect sources, but we DO find studies which address general efficacy of the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous in the treatment of alcoholism, how AA may strengthen and extend the effects of other types of treatment, how it may work differently for different groups based on age, gender, race, ethnicity, religion, disability, nationality, identification with mainstream culture, or sexual orientation,which aspects of 12 step groups may be the most/least useful in maintaining sobriety, and on and on and on. I was lurking on this thread and I couldn't take it anymore!! PubMed-- it's the gold standard, and it's the place to go. :)

Okay, that's the end of the little rant. Talk amongst yourselves.

ETA: Oh, here's a study worth looking at. I wish the whole thing was available. This compared topiramate vs. naltrexone in the treatment of alcohol dependence. Topiramate worked better than placebo, and seemed to have some kind of trend to be superior to naltrexone, but the really fascinating part was that it seemed to cause better AA attendance. Knowing T as I do, this is exactly what I would have predicted.
 
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Maia said:
I... I was lurking on this thread and I couldn't take it anymore!! PubMed-- it's the gold standard, and it's the place to go. :)

Okay, that's the end of the little rant. Talk amongst yourselves.
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Spoon-feed us, o Paragraph-Devouring Maia!
 
:D mmm, key lime--actually my favorite kind of pie.

But somewhat seriously, what was the overall gist--

Is AA more/less effective than other treatments or orgs?

What kind of people does it work for?
 
A.A.Alfie said:
Ohh, Ouch!
How could I fail to be anything but impressed by such a well structured, considered and articulate argument.

The agnostics and atheists among us within AA have no issue with those that choose to use religion. We simply make a distinction between "religious" and "spiritual". It seems you and many don't like this interpretation.... meh.
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I regard that 'distinction' as disingenuous.

I see no point in wasting words when they will not be heard.
 
A.A.Alfie said:
Yep, there are two group in JREF generally: the narrow minded, sexually frustrated with anger issues wishing to vent their spleens. And the rest of us try who try and be adults. :D

But you are right: If one wants absolute proof I guess that can't be provided.
That said, I know that AA has helped me recover from my addictions, and I know this in much the same way that I know I love my wife and my children. But I guess you couldn't understand that either, huh? Love presumably being woo by your definition.
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Nonsense.
 
Complexity said:
I agree.

But the structure and organization of AA affects those groups and members who do not wish to be associated with religion/spirituality.
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Sure my mentor who started the MISA (Mentally Ill Substance Abuse) group and introduced me to relapse prevention was an strident atheist. He actually talked to the judge and got his AA attendance converted to something else (after he spent a week in jail for refusing to attend.). He was a great SA clinician, no god there!
 
Complexity said:
I agree.

But the structure and organization of AA affects those groups and members who do not wish to be associated with religion/spirituality.
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Now who's talking nonsense? You really need to explain this statement as it has zero basis in fact, just your ignorant assumptions.

Tradition Three:
"The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking".

Tradition Four:
"Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole."

Tradition Nine:
"A.A., as such, ought never be organised; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve."

My bold.
 
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