Of course AAFile claims he is done - his mind is controlled by a cult religion.
Besides, his job depends on it. I strongly doubt he has taken any time to review the extensive documentation & research I've posted by way of 2 simple links - I didn't reproduce the entire content here, simply posted the links, as the material I referenced with those is detailed, researched, & referenced - many pages long. I consider it rude to post walls of text, forcing forum members to scroll through material they might not be interested in (or may already know), rather than posting the links.
I may very well have to resort to such tactics, if you continue to refuse to read the material that I am using to support my argument.
I had assumed interested parties on the opposite side of my conclusions would actually look at those links, but I conclude you haven't done anything except perhaps a quick scanning (and promptly ignoring) of the dozens of direct comparisons that material makes between the way religion & cults operate, and the way AA operates as described in the big book & 12x12.
Some may argue that the big book and other official AA material is dated, old, or otherwise inapplicable to the way AA is supposed to work today - that, in effect, since a (small) minority of groups (or the tiny number of groups - even just a single group these AA supporters themselves attend) don't follow the publications exactly, that somehow makes AA a non-religion. Such a point is nonsense - these 2 books are what AA claims to be, and if a group does otherwise, all power to them - such things don't change what AA world services is claiming to be 'unchangeable', divinely inspired dogma.
For example, over the decades, many people have attempted to alter the first 164 pages of the big book with little to no success - at the conferences where this has been attempted (many of which I myself attended over the last 21 years), we were told AA works just fine the way it was originally written & a significant majority of AA members state the writings of Bill Wilson to be divinely inspired. Those of us who've dared to suggest otherwise - dared to suggest that the AA program needs to be drastically updated since a large body of information has been gained in addiction since the mid 30's - are quickly ostracized from friends, family, group, area, and regional committees - a typical religious cult technique of In Group/Out Group - pushed into a corner (literally, in a few examples) and are told - in no uncertain terms directly to our face - that our questioning of any AA material will rapidly lead us back to heavy drinking, with death, jail, or institutionalization soon to follow.
Such techniques match exactly that used by religious cults.
Primary AA material (such as the big book) directly state that relief from drinking cannot occur unless one finds & develops a relationship with a higher power exactly the same as the JudeoChristian god (don't even try to bring in the line 'of one's understanding' - even a casual reading of the big book makes clear just which higher power AA considers sufficient for lifetime sobriety - the god of christianity.) - I can site dozens of examples, but for a sample, here is a quote of the last line of Chapter 3 of the big book:
"The alcoholic at certain time has no effective mental defense against the first drink. Except in a few rare cases, neither he or any other human being can provide such a defense. His defense must come from a Higher Power"
As this discussion proceeds further, I will continue to reference material directly from the AA big book, the 12x12 , Bill's own writings, and the commentary available from A. Orange's research.
Here is a detailed quote from one of the links I've provided earlier - written not by myself but by A. Orange , since you are apparently not bothering to read my links I am forced to quote a block of text - something I normally don't do and ask forgiveness for from the author, other forum members & the administration:
" * The Twelve Steps are a recipe for building a cult religion, not a formula for quitting drinking. The Twelve Steps are really just a verbose restatement of the cult-building practices of Frank Buchman's Oxford Group cult religion. Bill Wilson's Twelve Steps are not even original material.
o The Twelve Steps don't even mention quitting drinking, or recovery or health, but they do mention God, directly or indirectly, in 6 of the 12 steps. The Ten Commandments of Judeo-Christian religions mention God fewer times than that — only 4 or 5 of the 10 commandments refer to God, directly or indirectly* — but the A.A. true believers still insist that A.A. is not a religion.
o Again, seven of the Twelve Steps, Steps Four through Ten, are designed to induce guilt by dwelling on all of our past sins, "defects of character", "moral shortcomings", "the exact nature of our wrongs", everybody we ever harmed, and then some more wrongs.
o The Twelve Steps tell people to surrender their wills and their lives to God, to pray to God, and then tell them how to pray and what to pray for, but the A.A. true believers still insist that A.A. is not a religion.
o Then Step Twelve tells the believers to go recruit more members — to "carry the message to those alcoholics who still suffer." That is essential for building any cult.
* Some groups even read The Promises out loud at the start of every meeting, as well. The Promises are just some more of Bill Wilson's deluded wishful thinking, but A.A. true believers insist that The Promises are inspired scripture.
* Last but not least, there is the sacrament of confession. A.A. practices confession far more than even the Catholic Church does. In A.A., you are supposed to confess everything you ever did wrong in your whole life in the Fifth Step, and then you continue to confess everything in the Tenth Step. (And you confess everything to someone who isn't even an ordained Priest or sworn to secrecy.)
That's enough "Sacraments, Laws and Commandments" to choke a horse.
# You want "Ritual"? I just described a ritual. Every A.A. meeting is a ritual, begun by praying and incanting the magical Steps and Traditions, followed by reciting cult dogma about how the program never fails, except for the unworthy people... Then the ritual continues with the public confession session, and ends with more prayer.
# You want "Punishing"? The A.A. system of rewards and punishments is subtle but powerful. First off, abstainers are rewarded with tokens or coins and applause and congratulations for sober time accumulated. Then, newcomers are gradually steered towards what they are supposed to "share" when they are called upon to speak, just by how the other people react to what they say. A room full of true believers can be very intimidating. They will coldly glare at you if you say the wrong things, or smile and bathe you in warm, loving looks if you say what they want to hear.
In addition, sponsors will either praise or harshly criticize their sponsees in order to get conformity and proper behavior. All of this is enforced with the threat of death: either do what you are told, or you will relapse and die drunk (the ultimate punishment), they say.
And, if you do not please your sponsor, he or she can fire you, and leave you to fend for yourself. That can be terrifying to a newcomer who fears for his life.
People who have been sentenced to A.A. by a judge or parole officer face much greater threats of punishment: either please your sponsor so that he sends in good reports on you, or else you will get thrown in jail.
# You want "Priests, ministers, men"? They are called "old-timers", "elder statesmen" (12X12, page 135), and "elders" (12X12, pages 142-144). They are mostly men. The host of High Priests starts with the dead "saints" William Griffith Wilson and Doctor Robert Smith and the other dead earliest members, and then includes all of the oldest still-living old-timers, those rare old dinosaurs with 30, 40 or more years of sobriety in Alcoholics Anonymous... And then the 'local priests' are the resident old-timers, whoever has the most time.
# About "church": It is very hypocritical of the Twelve-Steppers to criticize churches for having church buildings, and meeting in church buildings, when A.A. then meets in their basements. But they do it. They somehow imagine that they are morally superior to the people who own the buildings where they meet, because the other people own the buildings.
"Well yeh, they are formal, and organized, and have church buildings, while we are free and open."
That's really a crazy granfalloon.
# As far as organization goes, A.A. is totally organized and legally incorporated, in spite of the tradition that says that it isn't supposed to be organized — Tradition Nine. Alcoholics Anonymous has two national headquarters, one for Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. and one for the General Service Organization. They also have between $6 and $10 million stashed in the bank, and they have executives, a board of trustees who each get $75,000 per year, and a national council, and regional, state, and local offices. Tradition Nine says, "A.A., as such, ought never be organized", but they don't follow that tradition any more than they follow the others. It's organized.
... A.A. is all completely organized in a pyramid-shaped power structure. Most members have a sponsor, and the A.A. literature like the Big Book and Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions exhorts followers to do whatever their sponsors say:
* A willingness to do whatever I was told to do simplified the program for me.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, anonymous, Chapter C10, It Might Have Been Worse, page 381.
* Since I gave my will over to A.A., whatever A.A. has wanted of me I've tried to do to the best of my ability.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, anonymous, Chapter C4, The Housewife Who Drank At Home, page 340.
# As far as Patriarchy goes, there are few things more patriarchal than Alcoholics Anonymous and its Twelve Steps, which force a dictatorial Old-Testament patriarchal male God on us:
* "as we understood Him" in Steps Three and Eleven.
* Step Seven: "Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings."
* Step Eleven: "...praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out."
* The Third Step Prayer has you grovelling before Him so much that you will wear holes in the knees of your pants:
We were now at Step Three. Many of us said to our Maker, as we understood Him: "God, I offer myself to Thee — to build with me and to do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of life. May I do Thy will always!" We thought well before taking this step making sure we were ready; that we could at last abandon ourselves utterly to Him.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, Chapter 5, How It Works, page 63.
In fact, A.A.-cofounder "Doctor Bob" — Robert Holbrook Smith — was opposed to even letting women into the all-male A.A. organization back in the early days:
The young were not welcome then. The feeling was they had not suffered enough, had not lived enough years and lost enough to have "hit bottom." Women alcoholics were not welcome either. Dr. Bob and many early members held to the Victorian idea that "nice" women weren't drunks.
Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous, Nan Robertson, page 62. "
Quote above from A. Orange
additionally, Agent Orange - speaking about AA literature & Bill Wilson's own writings continues...<bolds & italics mine>
"Bill Wilson wrote that the ultimate effect of "working the program" was religious conversion. In his second book, Wilson described his experiences while indoctrinating and converting newcomers:
'From great numbers of such experiences, we could predict that the doubter who still claimed that he hadn't got the "spiritual angle," and who still considered his well-loved A.A. group the higher power, would presently love God and call Him by name.'
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, pages 108-109."
It's plainly obvious that Bill Wilson himself considered the words 'spiritual' and 'religious' to be identical, the only difference being that to the newcomer, 'spiritual' was easier to swallow - but lets be clear, as far as he was concerned, these terms were used interchangeably, and what started out as spiritual became religious as his writings (Don't let anyone tell you otherwise, Bill - not some anon 100 drunks - wrote 99% of the AA program. The stories in the back were from the 100 others, but the content of the first 164 pages and the 12x12 were all from Bill W solely. Another Bill W quote where it can be seen how he switches the two words:
"The terms "spiritual experience" and "spiritual awakening" are used many times in this book which, upon careful reading, shows that the personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism has manifested itself among us in many different forms.
Yet it is true that our first printing gave many readers the impression that these personality changes, or religious experiences, must be in the nature of sudden and spectacular upheavals. Happily for everyone, this conclusion is erroneous."
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, Appendix II, Spiritual Experience, page 569.
In concluding the support in this short post (short, in comparison to what I may write in the future & the volume of evidence available to support my case), I leave you with some quotes that demonstrate this very well - all of these are from Bill Wilson:
He [Ebby Thacher] looked straight at me. Simply, but smilingly, he said, "I've got religion."
I was aghast. So that was it — last summer an alcoholic crackpot; now, I suspected, a little cracked about religion.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William Wilson, Chapter 1, Bill's Story, page 9.
But my friend sat before me, and he made the point-blank declaration that God had done for him what he could not do for himself. [Quit drinking.] ...
That floored me. It began to look as though religious people were right after all. ... My ideas about miracles were dramatically revised right then.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William Wilson, Chapter 1, Bill's Story, page 11.
Assume on the other hand that father has, at the outset, a stirring spiritual experience. Overnight, as it were, he is a different man. He becomes a religious enthusiast. He is unable to focus on anything else. ... There is talk about spiritual matters morning, noon and night.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William Wilson, Chapter 9, The Family Afterward, page 129.
[At an early A.A. meeting] there was no literature except various religious pamphlets.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, page 291.
Dr. Bob always emphasized the religious angle very strongly...
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, page 292, and 4th edition, page 263.
Next?
AMW
