Debunk Alert: Experiment to Test for Eutectic Reaction

[MikeW]

Fires in a debris pile will not have near as much oxygen to work with.

Let us know when you have some evidence that the fires couldn't have reached the required temperatures. Your faith is not enough.

 

[BigAl]

Excuse me, "[FONT=&quot]A liquid eutectic mixture containing primarily iron, oxygen, and sulfur formed during this hot sulfur attack on the steel.[/FONT]"
.

Which isn't slag.

 

[carlitos]

One last try:

I must disagree with you again. The evidence definitely points toward explosives.

Then why were you discussing thermite?

 

[BigAl]

You acknowledge that oxygen starved fires will not burn as hot as a well ventilated fire.

You are wrong. Combustion temperature is a equilibrium between heat generated and heat lost by conduction, radiation and convection.

A "well ventilated" fire loses lots of heat via convection, if nothing else.

A fire that is oxygen-limited may be very hot if it is well insulated and losing little heat to conduction, radiation and convection.

If you think I'm wrong, ask any fireman.

 

[Christopher7]

You admit that office fires can reach temperatures around 1000ºC.

You say you understand what 'eutectic' means.

You say that eutectic melting of steel occurred.

You identify the eutectic as a sulphur-steel oxide with a melting point below 1000ºC.

You continue to insist that this required temperatures in excess of those available from an office fire, because steel melts at over 1500ºC.

You are unable to discern the contradiction here.

You are the one "unable to discern" between two different events.

The beam from WTC 7 had its melting point lowered by a sulfur incursion.

The temperatures in excess of 2800^oF are necessary to melt iron and create the iron spheres found in the Bankers Trust building.

 

[T.A.M.]

They discuss explosives because their high priest, S.Jones has admitted that the amount of thermite required to raise the temp high enough is unreasonable, and as a result, when cornered by dr. Greening, suggested the thermite was only used in the detonators for conventional explosives.

TAM

 

[carlitos]

S. Jones being the guy who deduced that "Christ visited the Americas" based on seeing dots on hands in a few pieces of ancient art." Got it.

 

[Christopher7]

You are wrong. Combustion temperature is a equilibrium between heat generated and heat lost by conduction, radiation and convection.

A "well ventilated" fire loses lots of heat via convection, if nothing else.

You are comparing a well ventilated compartment fire with an over vented compartment fire, 1/4 to 1/2 of one wall[facade]. Neither can be compared to a debris pile fire where air flow is very restricted.

 

[triforcharity]

NISTIR 7213
Pg 41 [pdf pg 43]
[FONT=&quot]http://www.fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/fire05/PDF/f05018.pdf[/FONT]
[qimg]http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/2723/firetempgraph.jpg[/qimg]

Forty seven stories were compacted in to a debris pile about 4 stories high. air flow was considerably less than in an open floor office fire.

No, here is what you do not understand.

This is talking about PPV, where a FAN is placed in a doorway to vent smoke as firefighters enter the building. Doing so introduces even more oxygen to a fire. If you look at page 45 and 47 in that PDF, you will see that a normal ventilated fire acieves the 900-1000 deg. mark also.

Secondly, you do realize that 7WTC was mostly air right? You also realize that there were huge pockets which allow air to feed a fire, and it was not solid in any sense of the word, right?

So, in conclusion, you are taking information from a report that you do not understand. BTW, a fire on the 15th floor of ahighrise is exactly like having a fan in a window due to the height, and the fact that winds at that height are much more than ground floor.

 

[twinstead]

Since obviously we can't agree to disagree, Christopher7, and none of us is going to change his position any time soon, it is up to you to show us how wrong we are by convincing somebody who can DO something about it you aren't insane.

Find some reporter, anywhere in the world, who desires a Pulitzer Prize. Find some respected scientific or engineering organization, anywhere in the world, that will go on record as saying the commonly-held account of 9/11 is impossible. Endless debate with 'debunkers' on a relatively obscure internet forum, or preaching to the choir on truther websites and forums accomplishes nothing.

I don't think it will ever happen because I think you don't know what you're talking about. You can have your own reasons why it will never happen. The bottom line, though, it that it WILL INDEED never happen.

 

[triforcharity]

Iron melts at 2800^oF
[FONT=&quot]Various metals (most notably iron and lead) were melted during the WTC [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]event, producing spherical metallic particles. Exposure of phases to high[/FONT][FONT=&quot] heat results in the formation of spherical particles due to surface tension.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Figure 21 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and Figure 22 show a spherical iron particle resulting from the[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]melting of iron (or steel)[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

Read this, and explain to me why the temperature could be much lower.

Rapid deterioration of the steel was a result of heating with oxidation in combination with intergranular melting due to the presence of sulfur. The formation of the eutectic mixture of iron oxide and iron sulfide lowers the temperature at which liquid can form in this steel. This strongly suggests that the temperatures in this region of the steel beam approached ~1,000ºC, forming the eutectic liquid by a process similar to making a “blacksmith’s weld” in a hand forge.

Tell me what that says in regards to temperature and this erosion.

 

[Christopher7]

S. Jones being the guy who deduced that "Christ visited the Americas" based on seeing dots on hands in a few pieces of ancient art." Got it.

Right. Never mind that office fires cant melt iron but something did. Just change the subject and take a few cheap shots at Prof Jones. That's the JREF way.

 

[triforcharity]

I have read this.

melt: change from a solid to a liquid state

Rapid deterioration of the steel was a result of heating with oxidation in combination with intergranular melting due to the presence of sulfur. The formation of the eutectic mixture of iron oxide and iron sulfide lowers the temperature at which liquid can form in this steel. This strongly suggests that the temperatures in this region of the steel beam approached ~1,000ºC, forming the eutectic liquid by a process similar to making a “blacksmith’s weld” in a hand forge.The beam melted at around 1000^oC - 1800^oF.


Sulfur is added to thermite to lower the melting point of steel. This combination is called thermate. It is the only known explanation for the melted beam, unless you know of another?

No Chris. This study state SPECIFICALLY that the steel ONLY reached a temp of about 1800 deg. F. This is IMPOSSIBLE if it was THERMATE.
HOW HARD IS THAT TO UNDERSTAND!! It did NOT reach ANYWHERE NEAR 2600 deg f.

Now, do you understand this NOW??

 

[triforcharity]

Has any denier come up with an explanation for the temperatures far in excess of what office or debris pile fires can attain?

Argument from personal ignorance and incorrect assumptions. Go back and try again.

 

[Dog Town]

Right. Never mind that office fires cant melt iron but something did. Just change the subject and take a few cheap shots at Prof Jones. That's the JREF way.

Why would that be a cheap shot? It's the truth! Isn't that what you claim to be after? It certainly explains why Dr. Jones follows strange beliefs!

 

[Dog Town]

You are comparing a well ventilated compartment fire with an over vented compartment fire, 1/4 to 1/2 of one wall[facade]. Neither can be compared to a debris pile fire where air flow is very restricted.

Are you aware of the many tunnels beneath the WTC complex? Yes, or No?

 

[triforcharity]

Really? You know better than the R.J. Lee Group? They studied the evidence and came to the conclusion that iron melted and the spheres were formed DURING the WTC event.

Why don't you write them and tell them you don't think iron melted during the WTC event and they should correct their mistake.

So you know more about an eutectic reaction than WPI?

 

[Christopher7]

Read this, and explain to me why the temperature could be much lower.

Tell me what that says in regards to temperature and this erosion.

You are mixing two different events too.

Seems to be a condition around here.

1) Sample #1 from WTC 7
The beam melted at about 1000^oF because of the sulfur attack.

2) Iron spheres found in and on the roof of the Bankers Trust building.
The iron melted about 2800^oF because there was no sulfur attack. It was then atomized into microscopic droplets that hardened into spheres.

 

[triforcharity]

Wrong. No matter how much insulation there is, the temperature cannot exceed the source of the heat. Temperatures in a debris pile fire will be much lower than in an office fire.

Argument from personal ignorance and a refusal to learn.

Explain for the the picture of the picec of steel glowing red when it was picked up by the equipment found here.

Explain that please using your logic. Thanks!

 

[Edx]

Argument from personal ignorance and a refusal to learn.

Explain for the the picture of the picec of steel glowing red when it was picked up by the equipment found here. [qimg]http://www.historycommons.org/events-images/626_molten_metal.jpg[/qimg]

Explain that please using your logic. Thanks!

He'll just say thats thermite that caused that, since thats what Steven Jones claimed.