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Debunk Alert: Experiment to Test for Eutectic Reaction

Christopher7 said:
I 'm talking about the melted beam from WTC 7.
NCSTAR 1A [FONT=&quot]Pg 47 [pdf pg 89]
Fires . . . . on Floors 11 to 13 – persisted in any given location for approximately 20 min to 30 min.

[/FONT]Thermate is the only known explanation for the melted beam.
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Wanna try that link again? I see Life Safety Factors. Nothing about time.
 
Christopher7 said:
Sample #1 is the the piece identified as being from WTC 7 in the FEMA C report.
http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_apc.pdf

"Heating of the steel into a hot corrosive environment approaching 1,000°C (1,800°F) results in the formation of a eutectic mixture of iron, oxygen, and sulfur that liquefied the steel.

[FONT=&quot]R.J. Lee Group Pg 17 [pdf pg 21][/FONT]
"[FONT=&quot]Figure 21 [FONT=&quot]and Figure 22 show a spherical iron particle resulting from the[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]melting of iron [/FONT][/FONT] [FONT=&quot](or [FONT=&quot]steel)[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]"
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]http://www.nyenvirolaw.org/WTC/130%20Liberty%20Street/Mike%20Davis%20LMDC%20130%20Liberty%20Documents/Signature%20of%20WTC%20dust/WTC%20Dust%20Signature.Composition%20and%20Morphology.Final.pdf[/FONT]

The only known source for temperatures hot enough to melt iron or steel in the fires or debris pile is some form of thermite.
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Go read the rest of the R.J. Lee groups report. Then, try to understand what you have read. There are some here that can help with big words.

Anyway, show me thermite that burns for weeks. I'll wait......
 
triforcharity said:
Go read the rest of the R.J. Lee groups report. Then, try to understand what you have read. There are some here that can help with big words.
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You are the one with a reading disorder. The R.J. Lee group report clearly states that the iron spheres resulted from iron or steel that had been melted.

It also said:
[FONT=&quot]Pg 21 [pdf pg 25][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Many of the materials, such as lead, cadmium, mercury and various organic compounds,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Vaporized**[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and then condensed during the WTC Event. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Lead Melting point - 622oF [328oC][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Boiling point - Vaporization 3182oF [1,750oC][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/melting-boiling-temperatures-d_392.html[/FONT][/FONT]

The FEMA C, R.J. Lee Group and the USGS reports all confirm temperatures far in excess of what can occur in an office fire or smoldering debris pile.
 
Christopher7 said:
You are the one with a reading disorder. The R.J. Lee group report clearly states that the iron spheres resulted from iron or steel that had been melted.

It also said:
[FONT=&quot]Pg 21 [pdf pg 25][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Many of the materials, such as lead, cadmium, mercury and various organic compounds,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Vaporized**[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and then condensed during the WTC Event. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Lead Melting point - 622oF [328oC][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Boiling point - Vaporization 3182oF [1,750oC][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/melting-boiling-temperatures-d_392.html[/FONT][/FONT]

The FEMA C, R.J. Lee Group and the USGS reports all confirm temperatures far in excess of what can occur in an office fire or smoldering debris pile.
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Why are you using the government as a source when you are the one accusing them of lying?
 
16.5 said:
Keep posting Red, you didn't earn the title of most worthless poster on this site for nothing.
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Sadly, that would be a too many other Twoofers to mention tie, including a resurfacing poster, in this very thread!


Coincidence?:rolleyes:
 
Quad4_72 said:
Why are you using the government as a source when you are the one accusing them of lying?
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Anything to avoid the point. ;-)

The data is accurate. It's the analysis and conclusions that are flawed. The failure to explain the melted beam or the molten iron/steel is malfeasance.
 
Ok, some details need to be provided in order to aid understanding. To start, I've seen zero legitimate research that indicates pre-collapse eutectic corrosion occurred (no, Steven Jones work doesn't count. For one, he doesn't claim sulfidation corrosion, he claims thermite melting. For two, his work isn't legit). And two papers
... point at the opposite - corrosion having occurred after the collapse - as being more likely.

Sisson and Biederman merely noted that
"...preliminary experiments[5] indicated that the reaction was not fast and dissolved little metal in 24 h."
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Their point is that the sulfidation attacks are not rapid chemical reactions. Both towers collapsed within 2 hours. A 2 hour sulfidation attack isn't outside the realm of possibility given high enough temperatures, but compared to the days to weeks exposure in the rubble pile fires, it's simply more likelly to have occurred there rather than in the standing towers. Especially when the experiments indicate the need for many hours to corrode significant amounts of steel.

Banovic and Foecke made several observations related to banding and microstructure formation (I'm still studying in order to understand it), but their one observation regarding the pattern of corrosion is pretty straightforward: The corrosion on a specific exterior column indicated that it was "prone" at the time of the sulfidation attack. Given that it's a column (albeit a perimeter one), and given that its size indicates it was no higher than the 51st or 52nd floor of either tower (therefore not in the impact zones of either building and not punched horizontal by the jets), it's obvious that it was vertical prior to collapse. If it was vertical prior to the buildings collapses yet prone during the sulfidation attack, it doesn't take a genius to understand that the corrosion occured in the rubble pile. After the collapses.

There is more there than that - read the Worchester Polytechnic team's works (plural), as well as Banovic/Foecke - but I've yet to see one work that demonstrates pre-collapse eutectic erosion. In contrast, I've found at least these two that point at post-collapse sulfidation being the likely case.

------

Regarding the contining moronic, disproven proposals of thermite: No. Biederman's, Sisson's, Barnett's, and Sullivan's work fully demonstrate the top-end temperatures the eroded pieces of steel could have possibly experienced, and they do so by demonstrating the formation of certain steel phases and iron sulfide species that would be destroyed above that temperature. The corroded steel could not have exceeded 1000oC. It's definitely possible they were lower; Banovich's and Foecke's work indicates lower temperatures, albeit still above 850oC. Regardless, that is well, WELL below the temperatures that thermite reach. The characteristics of the steel's microstructure surrounding the corrosions, as well as the sulfidation layers, would simply not exist if thermite were used, because they would have been destroyed. The eroded steel negates the possibility of thermite use. That idiocy can be dropped forthwith.
 
ElMondoHummus said:
Regarding the contining moronic, disproven proposals of thermite: No. Biederman's, Sisson's, Barnett's, and Sullivan's work fully demonstrate the top-end temperatures the eroded pieces of steel could have possibly experienced, and they do so by demonstrating the formation of certain steel phases and iron sulfide species that would be destroyed above that temperature. The corroded steel could not have exceeded 1000oC. It's definitely possible they were lower; Banovich's and Foecke's work indicates lower temperatures, albeit still above 850oC. Regardless, that is well, WELL below the temperatures that thermite reach. The characteristics of the steel's microstructure surrounding the corrosions, as well as the sulfidation layers, would simply not exist if thermite were used, because they would have been destroyed. The eroded steel negates the possibility of thermite use. That idiocy can be dropped forthwith.
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Where do they say that? Please provide URL and page numbers.
 
RedIbis said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvQDFV1HINw&feature=player_embedded

So what's wrong with the experiment? What's it's weaknesses? Does it have any validity? If not, why not?
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Well, for one thing, it was done by a self-important twit whose IQ is clearly twenty points (minimum) lower than what he thinks it is.

He added no super-heated water vapor or battery acid to the mix.

The little snot also mistook welding fume for thermite residue. There is no thermite residue on any of the steel photographed, nor did any of the cops, fire fighters or iron workers report finding any such residue in the pile.

So, in summary, it all came out of a sociopath's underwear.
 
leftysergeant said:
Well, for one thing, it was done by a self-important twit whose IQ is clearly twenty points (minimum) lower than what he thinks it is.

He added no super-heated water vapor or battery acid to the mix.

The little snot also mistook welding fume for thermite residue. There is no thermite residue on any of the steel photographed, nor did any of the cops, fire fighters or iron workers report finding any such residue in the pile.

So, in summary, it all came out of a sociopath's underwear.
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That's an interesting analysis, why the ad homs against him? I didn't get any kind of attitude from his presentation.
 
RedIbis said:
That's an interesting analysis, why the ad homs against him? I didn't get any kind of attitude from his presentation.
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We've been over that superstitious crap dozens of times in the last nine years. He hasn't been paying attention, and he is addressing issues far outside his area of expertise.

It is clear from examining the acid-etched steel that it played no part in the collapse mechanics because it is still mostly flat, except for the curled edges. Anyone who has ever etched metal with acid would recognize this as an effect of long-term exposure to fuming acid of some sort. The presence of pyrites and metalic copper intergranularly indicates that it was sulphuric acid.

The doofus has no clue what thermite damage even looks like, and wants us to accept that it was a possibility.

He still needs to show us some thermite residue before I will refer to him in terms which do not suggest that he suffers a serious mental deficiency.
 
Quad4_72 said:
Why are you using the government as a source when you are the one accusing them of lying?
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I've been lurking on this one for a day or so... Is it really all that shocking? lol

Chris...
dontgetitn.jpg
 
Grizzly Bear said:
It serves me right for not reading the first page. Where might I be able to find such information which establishes that this corrosion took place pre-collapse?
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lol! RedIbis accidentally made a claim!
 
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