Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[LondonJohn]

The prosecution conspiracy theory states that the window was broken from the inside while the exterior shutters were closed. But if you look at the broken glass on the window sill, there is evidence that the window was closed when it was broken. There is no glass on the sill where the closed window would have been.

To get that effect, the prosecutions stagers either had to either leave the window closed or move lots of small pieces of glass to replicate the effect after breaking the window in the open position.

In either case, they also have to catch and place lots of small pieces of glass to produce the scattered pattern we see all the way across the floor of Filomena's room.

How long do you think it would take to do that? *

The alternative theory is much simpler. The rock was thrown from the outside and the glass flew in the same general direction of the rock in keeping with the standard rules of Newtonian Physics.

* Remember that the prosecution conspiracy theory claims that before the Postal Police showed up, they also:

1. Went to a villa down the road to discard Meredith's cell phones.
2. Went to the store to buy cleaning supplies.
3. Did a magical cleanup of trace DNA evidence and fingerprints in the murder room. Removing only evidence pointing to Amanda or Raffaele and leaving evidence pointing to Rudy.
4. Took one knife used in the murder back to Raffaele's flat.
5. Hid all the cleaning supplies, the clothes and shoes they wore during the murder, Meredith's keys, credit cards and the second knife in some location that remains a mystery to this day.

Re your Point 5: It's indisputable that Meredith's keys and credit cards were taken from the house, together with at least one knife, and that they haven't (yet) been found. However, these are small items that would be relatively easy to dispose of. They could either have been hidden in other rubbish and placed in a municipal skip, or flung deep into the undergrowth somewhere, or even put down a drain.

However, the same cannot be said of two sets of outer clothing and two pairs of shoes. The prosecution say that these items must have been disposed of by Knox and Sollecito after the murder. But this adds up to a reasonably bulky package. Therefore, unless Knox and Sollecito took a trip out of town in Sollecito's car that night or early the next morning*, they had to have disposed of this package somewhere around Perugia. Surely it wouldn't have been so hard for the police to check local rubbish/recycling points for these items, or even to examine local landfill sites - if municipal collections had already been made before the search started.

Is there any evidence that the police conducted an in-depth search for the "murder clothes", let alone the knife, cards or keys?

* And presumably CCTV street camera footage might have showed whether Sollecito's car had driven out of Perugia between 11pm on the 1st and 11am on the 2nd. If the police bothered to check, that is.

 

[LondonJohn]

The "most likely" test founders on the question of why Amanda and Raffaele didn't stay away from the crime scene until someone else found the body. That is the obvious course of action if they wanted to divert suspicion.

Yes. This is another part of the prosecution (and PMF) narrative that makes no sense to me at all. Looking at the situation through an objective lens, it's glaringly obvious that the optimal course of action for Knox and Sollecito (if they had been involved in the murder) would have been either to stay holed up in Sollecito's apartment for as long as was necessary, or to go on their day trip as planned. Perhaps they might have wanted to spend most of the night, and maybe also the very early morning, on a clean-up and disposal operation. But after that, they would have stood to benefit from staying well away.

I suggest that to deliberately hand around the murder scene demonstrates a degree of narcissistic arrogance compatible only with extreme psychopathy and/or sociopathy. I don't believe that either Knox or Sollecito (whatever their personality defect might include), exhibited these traits.

 

[RoseMontague]

Meredith's DNA not on the knife

It certainly was, didn't you see the charts? The only point of contention is how it got there.

There are now some who argue that this principle cannot be applied to LCN DNA analysis, because even in a tightly controlled analytical procedure a significant number of supposedly negative controls give a positive result, i.e. they indicate the presence of DNA.

http://www.journalonline.co.uk/Magazine/52-2/1003857.aspx

It may have gotten on the testing sample during the procedure of preparing and amplifying but I don't think it was ever on the knife to begin with.

 

[Supernaut]

The fact remains that Filomena's window is the viable means for the intruder to have entered the cottage on the night Meredith was murdered. The entire "staged breakin" was invented after the fact by the prosecution with no hard evidence to back it up.

Exactly - the only reason for theorising that it was a "faked break-in" is the a priori assumption of AK's and RS's involvment/guilt.

That is to say, it is required by the prosecutions so-called "narrative".

One would otherwise have to assume that there was a burglary AND a murder, two separate and unrelated crimes at the same house and on the same day.

The reasoning for the "faked break-in" is utterly absurd, bass-ackwards.

 

[LondonJohn]

____________________

Yeah, well Chris Mellas says Amanda kept that can of pepper spray on her key ring, but how would Chris know? He wasn't there. Amanda may have told Chris this just to "humor him." Or maybe Amanda said no such thing, and Chris is being less than honest.

It ain't always such a brilliant idea to be packing a can of pepper spray for one's personal protection, or for any other purpose. Chris doesn't say explicitly when he gave Amanda the pepper spray, but if that happened while she lived in Seattle and she carried it there.......she would have done so illegally and been subject to arrest. This is true in many jurisdictions around the world. The same is, perhaps, true in Perugia, which would be strong incentive not to carry the can of pepper spray.

///

In many jurisdictions, carrying a "big ol' kitchen knife" around in your handbag for "protection" is similarly illegal.......

 

[LondonJohn]

A note on motive:

Of course, there's no need for the prosecution in any criminal case to prove motive in order to convict. The fact remains, however, that many prosecutors do try to inject some element of motive, since this often places the accused and the crime in a closer context.

In this particular case, the prosecution seems to have strained at the leash to search for motive, since they needed to justify their position that Knox, Sollecito and Guede participated in a grisly joint enterprise. So they pursued a motive along the lines of a "drink/drug-fuelled sex game gone wrong" - the only way in which it could have made any sense for three people (two of whom had only known each other for a week, and the third of whom was barely known to the first person, and totally unknown to the second) to commit this crime.

It's not a lack of motive which leads many to believe that the Knox/Sollecito convictions might not be correct. It's a lack of sufficient incriminating evidence. And, incidentally, the example of "motiveless killing" raised elsewhere comes nowhere near to a comparison with this case. The case that is being used as a comparator (Christian Longo's murder of his wife and children (or "adorable children" if you want to gratuitously ratchet up the emotional element)) is a whole different kettle of fish. Who knows what had been going on behind closed doors in the Longo household in the days, weeks, months or years leading up to this crime? Intra-familial relationships are often complex, with various layers of love, trust, deceit, jealousy, disappointment or rejection built up over many years.

This is a completely, totally, utterly different situation to that involving a group of people who had only known each other for between one hour, one week and six weeks. Narcissistic personality disorder does not typically manifest itself in spontaneous, unplanned outbursts such as the Kercher murder: such extreme crimes - for example the Longo murders - are usually the culmination of long and complex interpersonal relationships.

Oh, in passing, some have suggested that part of the "motive behind the motive" might have been to do with Knox being broke. I might be wrong, but didn't Knox have multiple thousands of dollars in her account at the time of her arrest?

 

[Malkmus]

____________________

Yeah, well Chris Mellas says Amanda kept that can of pepper spray on her key ring, but how would Chris know? He wasn't there. Amanda may have told Chris this just to "humor him." Or maybe Amanda said no such thing, and Chris is being less than honest.

It ain't always such a brilliant idea to be packing a can of pepper spray for one's personal protection, or for any other purpose. Chris doesn't say explicitly when he gave Amanda the pepper spray, but if that happened while she lived in Seattle and she carried it there.......she would have done so illegally and been subject to arrest. This is true in many jurisdictions around the world. The same is, perhaps, true in Perugia, which would be strong incentive not to carry the can of pepper spray.

Plus, there are plenty of places in Seattle to purchase pepper spray. It is not a banned product and would have made perfect sense to give to one's daughter before sending her off to a foreign country by herself.

///

If you've been able to convince yourself that a young woman would find it more appropriate to carry a 9 inch kitchen knife in her purse for protection rather than a can of pepper spray as is the norm with many women, then I can see why you think she is guilty. You simply can't differentiate between what is plausible and what isn't. If the prosecution state it, then it must be true. Even if Amanda decided to carry a knife around (i.e. if you believe in highly improbable situations), why would she decide to take the one knife belonging to her boyfriend of one week? The cottage had many knives which she could have selected from. Raf had a few pocket knives, why not give her one of those if she really needed something?

Pepper spray is legal in Washington:

WASHINGTON STATE: Legal with restrictions.

Section 9.91.160 explicitly authorizes the sale and use of "personal protection spray devices" such as "mace, pepper mace, or pepper gas". There is an age restriction to persons age 18 and older, or 14 with a parent or guardian's permission.

http://www.misdefenseproducts.com/Pepper-Spray-Laws-Restrictions-sp-6.html

 

[Malkmus]

TJMK has posted a horribly misleading article stating the "parallels" between the Kercher murder and the case of a man who killed his family "without motive". What's terrible is that the article flat out lies about why Christian Longo killed his family, stating that "he never explained his actions - as if what really happened wasn’t important." Which is completely untrue. Of course the readers at PMF have swallowed it hook, line and sinker. But if they actually read about the crime themselves, they would see that Christian Longo had a very strong motive. He was a thief and had cheated on his wife. After bankrupting his family he disclosed to his wife all the wrong things he had done which led to an argument which ultimately led to him snapping and commiting the horrible murders. It's very sad to see that those who believe in Amanda and Rafaelle's guilt have to resort to such tactics, especially when it's so obvious.

Here is the TJMK article:

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php

And here is the true story:

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/family/christian_longo/index.html

TJMK alleges that there was no motive in the Christian Longo case. The first ten pages of the Trutv article detail what led to him killing his wife and children.

The prosecution contended that Longo thought his family was in his way and killed them to enjoy a more uninhibited, free-spending lifestyle than was favored by his careful, conservative Jehovah's Witness church.

TJMK should be ashamed. I hope the readers at PMF read the true story.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I suggest that to deliberately hand around the murder scene demonstrates a degree of narcissistic arrogance compatible only with extreme psychopathy and/or sociopathy. I don't believe that either Knox or Sollecito (whatever their personality defect might include), exhibited these traits.

Yes, this is behavior reserved for the most out-there psychos. Ed "I just wanted to see what it would feel like to kill Grandma" Kemper hung out at the police station to get the latest gossip on the investigation into the women he had killed.

 

[Fine]

If you've been able to convince yourself that a young woman would find it more appropriate to carry a 9 inch kitchen knife in her purse for protection rather than a can of pepper spray as is the norm with many women, then I can see why you think she is guilty. You simply can't differentiate between what is plausible and what isn't. If the prosecution state it, then it must be true. Even if Amanda decided to carry a knife around (i.e. if you believe in highly improbable situations), why would she decide to take the one knife belonging to her boyfriend of one week? The cottage had many knives which she could have selected from. Raf had a few pocket knives, why not give her one of those if she really needed something?

Pepper spray is legal in Washington:

http://www.misdefenseproducts.com/Pepper-Spray-Laws-Restrictions-sp-6.html

Pepper spray is "legal" in the USA, and if we trust your retailer website, it is "legal" in Washington State as well. This doesn't contradict my statement that it is illegal in the City of Seattle. (Trust me, I'm a resident of Seattle.) Different jurisdictions have different laws.

An aside. One of the reasons pepper spray is illegal in many jurisdictions is this. Unless one is trained in the use of this weapon it would be stupid to try to use it for self defense. This is especially true for women, to whom this weapon is usually marketed.

///

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Here is the TJMK article:

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php

And here is the true story:

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/family/christian_longo/index.html

It is an eccentric choice of comparisons. The Longo case involves a type of homicide with a distinct fact pattern. Usually the perp is a proud man with a secret problem. He's involved in an incestuous relationship, or he's having an affair, or he's in debt. He convinces himself the only solution is to kill his entire family. Quite often these guys kill themselves after murdering the family, but occasionally, one will cook up a story a la Jeffrey MacDonald, or make an exit, as Longo did. Among the most successful of the genre was John List. He eluded capture for almost two decades, until a forensic expert presented a stunningly accurate aged likeness on America's Most Wanted. List disappeared just before D.B. Cooper made his legendary jump over eastern Washington, which led some to believe Cooper was List. This would be a fascinating twist, except it's not true. But the Longo case has a twist that is true... he assumed the identity of a New York Times reporter who was fired in disgrace after faking a story, and last winter, that same reporter wrote a genuine story about Christian Longo that can be read here:

http://www.esquire.com/features/christian-longo-0110

 

[HumanityBlues]

This doesn't contradict my statement that it is illegal in the City of Seattle.
///

I'm definitely calling shenanigans on this. If this is actually the case, you can cite the ordinance. I think you'll have trouble finding it.

 

[Malkmus]

Pepper spray is "legal" in the USA, and if we trust your retailer website, it is "legal" in Washington State as well. This doesn't contradict my statement that it is illegal in the City of Seattle. (Trust me, I'm a resident of Seattle.) Different jurisdictions have different laws.

An aside. One of the reasons pepper spray is illegal in many jurisdictions is this. Unless one is trained in the use of this weapon it would be stupid to try to use it for self defense. This is especially true for women, to whom this weapon is usually marketed.

///

Well, as of 2008 you could purchase it in Seattle.

http://www.yelp.com/topic/seattle-where-to-buy-pepper-spray-in-seattle

I think assuming that only people trained to use pepper spray buy it is irrelevant. I know many girls who own it and I doubt any of them have been trained to use it - but i'll ask and get back to you. Bottom line, if you can buy it over the counter I doubt it's going to matter if you were trained professionally to use it or not. People are going to just buy it and assume it's simple to use. Regardless of the pepper spray, it's completely unfounded to assume Amanda carried Rafaelle's knife around. Not only is it likely to rip up the contents of one's purse, its usage during an assault would basically require hand-to-hand combat, whereas pepper spray you just... spray from a distance.

 

[Dan O.]

Pepper spray is "legal" in the USA, and if we trust your retailer website, it is "legal" in Washington State as well. This doesn't contradict my statement that it is illegal in the City of Seattle. (Trust me, I'm a resident of Seattle.) Different jurisdictions have different laws.

What do you really know about the law?

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.91.160

RCW 9.91.160
Personal protection spray devices.

(1) It is unlawful for a person under eighteen years old, unless the person is at least fourteen years old and has the permission of a parent or guardian to do so, to purchase or possess a personal protection spray device. A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.

**** (2) No town, city, county, special purpose district, quasi-municipal corporation or other unit of government may prohibit a person eighteen years old or older, or a person fourteen years old or older who has the permission of a parent or guardian to do so, from purchasing or possessing a personal protection spray device or from using such a device in a manner consistent with the authorized use of force under RCW 9A.16.020. No town, city, county, special purpose district, quasi-municipal corporation, or other unit of government may prohibit a person eighteen years old or older from delivering a personal protection spray device to a person authorized to possess such a device.​

It just shows how far we can trust anything you say.

 

[LondonJohn]

It is an eccentric choice of comparisons. The Longo case involves a type of homicide with a distinct fact pattern. Usually the perp is a proud man with a secret problem. He's involved in an incestuous relationship, or he's having an affair, or he's in debt. He convinces himself the only solution is to kill his entire family. Quite often these guys kill themselves after murdering the family, but occasionally, one will cook up a story a la Jeffrey MacDonald, or make an exit, as Longo did. Among the most successful of the genre was John List. He eluded capture for almost two decades, until a forensic expert presented a stunningly accurate aged likeness on America's Most Wanted. List disappeared just before D.B. Cooper made his legendary jump over eastern Washington, which led some to believe Cooper was List. This would be a fascinating twist, except it's not true. But the Longo case has a twist that is true... he assumed the identity of a New York Times reporter who was fired in disgrace after faking a story, and last winter, that same reporter wrote a genuine story about Christian Longo that can be read here:

http://www.esquire.com/features/christian-longo-0110

Oh he's written a full-on book about the whole thing as well ("True Story"). It feels to me like Finkel might have leapt upon the Longo connection as a chance for redemption and an opportunity to re-ignite his writing career. He even claims that, in a lucky symmetry, he learned of Longo's use of his (Finkel's) identity on the very same day that he was fired from the NY Times.

 

[LondonJohn]

There's been some ill-informed comment elsewhere about Knox and her need for a work permit while she was studying in Italy.

In European Union countries, a non-EU resident who enrolls as a student in an EU member state (viz. Knox in Italy) is entitled to work for up to 20 hours per week (or 40 hours/week outside of term-time) without the need for any sort of separate work visa. Therefore, Knox neither had to apply for or obtain a work visa for the work that she was doing at Lumumba's bar. Hope that's cleared that one up.......

 

[Fine]

Well, as of 2008 you could purchase it in Seattle. http://www.yelp.com/topic/seattle-where-to-buy-pepper-spray-in-seattle

I think assuming that only people trained to use pepper spray buy it is irrelevant. I know many girls who own it and I doubt any of them have been trained to use it - but i'll ask and get back to you. Bottom line, if you can buy it over the counter I doubt it's going to matter if you were trained professionally to use it or not. People are going to just buy it and assume it's simple to use. Regardless of the pepper spray, it's completely unfounded to assume Amanda carried Rafaelle's knife around. Not only is it likely to rip up the contents of one's purse, its usage during an assault would basically require hand-to-hand combat, whereas pepper spray you just... spray from a distance.

________________

Malkmus, Permit me to clarify the issue here. The issue is NOT whether one can purchase or own pepper spray in the City of Seattle. The issue is whether one can carry on one's person such a weapon. As you know, the laws make a similar distinction concerning other weapons such as knives and guns.

And Chris Mellas' comment that he purchased such a weapon for Amanda---and she carried it--- is a double edged sword. He says she carried pepper spray on her key ring while she resided in Perugia. Suppose that's true, for the purpose of the discussion. One might therefore conclude that she didn't need to carry a knife for protection. But one could also conclude that she was in fear for her safety, and so would have been all the more disposed to carry a knife, too, for protection.

///

 

[Kestrel]

Exactly - the only reason for theorising that it was a "faked break-in" is the a priori assumption of AK's and RS's involvment/guilt.

That is to say, it is required by the prosecutions so-called "narrative".

One would otherwise have to assume that there was a burglary AND a murder, two separate and unrelated crimes at the same house and on the same day.

The reasoning for the "faked break-in" is utterly absurd, bass-ackwards.

The prosecution also claimed that showing the Postal Police around the cottage and pointing out the broken window, blood and so on was evidence that Amanda and Raffaele staged the break in.

Isn't showing the police why you called the police an expected behavior?

 

[LondonJohn]

________________

Malkmus, Permit me to clarify the issue here. The issue is NOT whether one can purchase or own pepper spray in the City of Seattle. The issue is whether one can carry on one's person such a weapon. As you know, the laws make a similar distinction concerning other weapons such as knives and guns.

And Chris Mellas' comment that he purchased such a weapon for Amanda---and she carried it--- is a double edged sword. He says she carried pepper spray on her key ring while she resided in Perugia. Suppose that's true, for the purpose of the discussion. One might therefore conclude that she didn't need to carry a knife for protection. But one could also conclude that she was in fear for her safety, and so would have been all the more disposed to carry a knife, too, for protection.

///

Yes. One can lawfully carry and use pepper spray in the city of Seattle. The relevant legislation has already been cited. You can stop trying to make this argument now. Thank you.

///

 

[LondonJohn]

The prosecution also claimed that showing the Postal Police around the cottage and pointing out the broken window, blood and so on was evidence that Amanda and Raffaele staged the break in.

Isn't showing the police why you called the police an expected behavior?

Noooooooooo!!! Apparently, showing the police blood and broken windows is EXACTLY what you'd expect of a cunning, vicious murdering couple. And nothing could point more clearly to their guilt than their apparently ceaseless willingness to help the police...................