A question about the political spectrum in the US

I'd say probably because the US has had to shoulder the burden of world defense, much of the rest of the West had the freedom to indulge itself on the social issues front. It's not that the US moved right, it's that the other countries moved left.

However, the first moves towards a welfare state precede WW2 by a wide margin. Bismarck in Germany was the first to lay the groundworks in the 1880s. The British Liberal Party made a blueprint in the 1900s. In that respect, it's also noteworthy that the US never had a mass Labour party such as all Western European countries have.
 
In fact, if anything the problem with U.S. politics in this regard is homogeneity. As the OP points out, what is called "left" or "liberal" here is right of center by any objective definition.
I'm still waiting for those definitions btw.

Is France right of center for banning burqas?

Is the UK right of center for having a state-sponsored religion?

Is Switzerland right of center for banning minarets?

Is Russia "westernized"? Is Poland? Ukraine? Turkey?

If generous social welfare programs make a country left, was Nazi Germany a leftist state?

This discussion is meaningless until we establish a baseline.
 
I'm still waiting for those definitions btw.

Is France right of center for banning burqas?

Is the UK right of center for having a state-sponsored religion?

Is Switzerland right of center for banning minarets?

Is Russia "westernized"? Is Poland? Ukraine? Turkey?

If generous social welfare programs make a country left, was Nazi Germany a leftist state?

This discussion is meaningless until we establish a baseline.
the problem with establishing a baseline is its nearly impossible, like most things in life politics is much too complex to lump into black/white left/right catagories

for example whenever i take one of those political quizzes i usually end up just to the right of center, but thats just because it averages my opinions, which tend to be either far left or far right depending on the issue, and i tend to disagree with moderates as well as extremists on both sides, lol
 
the problem with establishing a baseline is its nearly impossible,
I know it is, and that's my problem with this thread.

The US is neither left nor right of other "westernized" nations, just different. You may be able to say one particular policy of the US is left or right of some other country's policy, but when you aggregate it all it's a wash.

Did you hear that in some of those far-right European countries it's illegal to be wrong about the Holocaust? Or to insult God?
 
I'm still waiting for those definitions btw.

Is France right of center for banning burqas?

Is the UK right of center for having a state-sponsored religion?

Both countries have center right goverments at this time.

Is Switzerland right of center for banning minarets?

Given the party that initialy proposed it yes.
 
I'd say probably because the US has had to shoulder the burden of world defense, much of the rest of the West had the freedom to indulge itself on the social issues front. It's not that the US moved right, it's that the other countries moved left.

In many cases a self imposed burden, such as failing to support a legitimate movement for independence in Vietnam and pushing that movement into the hands of the soviet union.

Likewise in Cuba when people wanted rid of a corrupt regime but it was not considered in the US economic interest to support such a movement.

If Europe developed a 'socialist' leaning it wasn't because Europeans had it so good under the benign military protection of the US... we were in the bloody front line of any war between dogmatic US ideologues and dogmatic Soviet ideologues. World war three was gonna start as a shooting war in Europe, followed by a tactical nuclear war in Europe, likely started by NATO since the Warsaw Pact out-gunned us all conventionally, and only then would the heartland of freedom be threatened by a global nuclear war.

Socialism just has never had the bad press in Europe that it has in the US. Personally I think that's your problem, not ours. :)
 
In many cases a self imposed burden, such as failing to support a legitimate movement for independence in Vietnam and pushing that movement into the hands of the soviet union.

Likewise in Cuba when people wanted rid of a corrupt regime but it was not considered in the US economic interest to support such a movement.

If Europe developed a 'socialist' leaning it wasn't because Europeans had it so good under the benign military protection of the US... we were in the bloody front line of any war between dogmatic US ideologues and dogmatic Soviet ideologues. World war three was gonna start as a shooting war in Europe, followed by a tactical nuclear war in Europe, likely started by NATO since the Warsaw Pact out-gunned us all conventionally, and only then would the heartland of freedom be threatened by a global nuclear war.

Socialism just has never had the bad press in Europe that it has in the US. Personally I think that's your problem, not ours. :)
I see that in your school European history begins in 1950.

You mentioned "World War III", are you aware of WWI and WWII, and do you think that had a bit to do with the "war between dogmatic US ideologues and dogmatic Soviet ideologues"?

You guys dragged us in kicking and screaming into your little centuries-old spats, note you've kept yourselves relatively in check since then thanks in no small part to the dogmatic USA.

You're welcome.
 
Well the US impact on WW1 wasn't really all that great. You came quite late to the party that time.

As for WW2, well yes, without the US we probably would have lost. Just a shame that it took the Nazis declaring war on the US after the Japs bombed your naval base to get you to actually be willing to take part. Up until then, it seemed getting US public support was quite difficult. Something about the Nazis being opposed to the Soviets, until their 'pact' put a dampener on any US hopes that the Nazis might destroy the scourge of communism.

you're most very welcome :)
 
Well the US impact on WW1 wasn't really all that great. You came quite late to the party that time.

As for WW2, well yes, without the US we probably would have lost. Just a shame that it took the Nazis declaring war on the US after the Japs bombed your naval base to get you to actually be willing to take part. Up until then, it seemed getting US public support was quite difficult. Something about the Nazis being opposed to the Soviets, until their 'pact' put a dampener on any US hopes that the Nazis might destroy the scourge of communism.

You seem to have a very confused version of history here. The Soviet-German pact came before even you Brits entered the war, and the US declared war on Germany--after Pearl Harbor, yes, you got that part right--after the Germans invaded the Soviet Union.
 
Well the US impact on WW1 wasn't really all that great. You came quite late to the party that time.

As for WW2, well yes, without the US we probably would have lost. Just a shame that it took the Nazis declaring war on the US after the Japs bombed your naval base to get you to actually be willing to take part. Up until then, it seemed getting US public support was quite difficult. Something about the Nazis being opposed to the Soviets, until their 'pact' put a dampener on any US hopes that the Nazis might destroy the scourge of communism.

you're most very welcome :)
Sorry Dave, that reason for US reluctance to get involved in European affairs exists only in your head.

As I said, you guys dragged us in kicking and screaming. We stayed to help you get through the next 65 years without, as you may have noticed, any major wars (though the Balkan war comes very close, but quite small by your usual standards) for the first time in recorded European history.

Go on Dave, tell yourself you guys would have been able to behave if the US left you to your own devices. But don't try to BS me with it.

You're welcome.
 
You seem to have a very confused version of history here. The Soviet-German pact came before even you Brits entered the war, and the US declared war on Germany--after Pearl Harbor, yes, you got that part right--after the Germans invaded the Soviet Union.

The Nazis declared war on the US after Pearl harbour.

I do wonder if the US would have been interested in the European war if this had not happened, after all you got attacked by Japan, not the Nazis.
 
Sorry Dave, that reason for US reluctance to get involved in European affairs exists only in your head.

Really? So people like Charles Lindbergh actively campaigning for isolationism didn't have US public support? Why did it take until 1942 and the declaration of war by Nazi Germany on the US for the US to be willing to fight against that despicable regime?
As I said, you guys dragged us in kicking and screaming. We stayed to help you get through the next 65 years without, as you may have noticed, any major wars (though the Balkan war comes very close, but quite small by your usual standards) for the first time in recorded European history.
Two of the most powerful post war economies were (west) Germany and Japan. Both benefited greatly from US economic and military support. Why? Altruism? Or the need to prevent war torn nations from falling to the communists?
The US (quite rightly) looks after it's own best interests. Those interests have been seen as keeping Communism at bay in Europe and Asia (and the mid-east which, as Condi Rice once admitted, had meant the US had a history of supporting regimes without regard to what those regimes did to their own people) but sometimes your 'communists' are simply socialists, but the US has at times been blind to the difference.
Go on Dave, tell yourself you guys would have been able to behave if the US left you to your own devices. But don't try to BS me with it.
Behave? The European Union is a construct of the US? Crikey!

You're welcome.
Likewise :)
 
Why are US politics so far to the right when compared to other westernized countries?

As I recall discussing this in political science classes years ago, here are a few factors no one has mentioned yet.

1.) A strict winner-take-all electoral system which has become a two-party system. European democracies have parliamentary arrangements which allow multiple parties in the national legislature. This makes it much more possible for "outsider" parties to influence legislation, build a track record, form coalitions, and leverage these gains into major-party status.

2.) The Senate. The U.S. gives the same number of Senate seats to states with smaller, rural populations as it does to states with larger, urban populations. People in rural areas tend to be more conservative, their attitudes of independence and isolation are adaptive in such economic circumstances, and their regional cultures tend to encourage individualistic attitudes while discouraging recognition of "Eastern" or "Northern" contributions to their quality of life. Their electoral power is magnified beyond their true numbers, putting a break on social democratic legislation.

3.) Lack of a strong socialist movement. European countries in the late 19th and early 20th centuries had large socialist movements. They also had smaller territories to organize in on their national levels. The U.S. electoral system made it harder for socialist parties to win votes and seats, so they didn't have much chance to build on a track record of reforms. Meanwhile, their issues were taken by the two major parties, channeling movement support to these parties in stead.

4.) Slavery. I think that having slavery, then Jim Crow and other racist laws during this time, seriously divided working class Americans. I recall the Populist movement of the late-19th century, and the union movement, being split over issues of race. Meanwhile, I get the impression that the more homogeneous societies of each of the European countries offered less of an opportunity to divide socialist and related movements along cultural lines. Perhaps European posters could clarify this, especially since many European countries were not ethnically homogeneous even 100 years ago.

5.) Religion and myth. There is a lot more religiosity, specifically Christian, in the United States, which tends to be a conservative force. Not always, of course, as we see with Quakers and the Catholic Worker movement, for example. But the main religious movements have tended toward the right, and those people usually vote. They backed out of politics a bit after the Scopes Trial embarrassed them, which might have helped make room for the New Deal. But they've come back since. They always do.

Meanwhile, in 19th century Europe there was a lot more anti-clerical sentiment during their democratic revolutions. The U.S. experience may actually derive from separation of church and state, while the European experience may derive from the ancien regimes' fusion of same. Is that irony?

You should also consider American exceptionalism, which is, as I recall, derived from 17th century notions of the Puritan Separatists. There is a sense that "America" is already good enough simply because it is already accepted that it is the shining city on a hill. I don't think any other countries have quite this kind of myth, certainly not Europe since that's where people were leaving from. They already knew the grass wasn't green enough there.

6.) The notion of "Americanism". This is a tool that has been used for a long time to police the borders of acceptable political discourse in the U.S. In one sense it is valuable, in that it has provided a common bond for a diverse nation of immigrants. We're Americans because of our ideas about how a society should be governed, and not because of Old World ethnic, linguistic, or geographical identities.

However, this way of thinking can also used to proscribe any policies or practices that are or can be made to appear contrary to established tradition and national conformity. A smaller country without so many different established traditions might be easier to build some consensus in. Also, any idea that is associated with a hated out-group has a difficult time even getting a hearing here, and it just so happens that socialism and social democracy have been successfully associated with Jews (seen as greedy and not connected to the land), Europeans (seen as decadent and arrogant), and intellectuals (seen as impractical and arrogant).

Other: Sheer size, combined with a large population, may have something to do with it. This makes the U.S. harder to organize than a smaller country like Sweden or a less-populous one like Canada.

There may also be a cultural element of hyper-individualistic distrust of the Other derived from 17th century Scots-Irish culture, and the commercial cultures of New England and the mid-Atlantic state. See David Hackett Fischer on the Borderers. But this view is controversial.

I've also wondered if the total devastation of Europe during World War II contributed to the development of social democratic politics. Even though much of West Germany was occupied by the U.S. after the war, and they influenced the German constitution, West Germany still ended up more to the left than the country which didn't lose as much of its infrastructure. Could we also say that the defeat of Nazism and fascism allowed a sudden return of the movements they had been suppressing?
 
School districts. Tax dollars at work.

Sounds about right, then. Private industry doesn't like to pay that sort of wages because it cuts down what they can pay out in dividends. It doesn't much matter to the private sector whether a janitor can pass much of a background check.

One conviction for sexual misconduct or abuse of a child and you aren't even considered fit to take the trash out of a school facility. I wouldn't have it any other way.
 
You seem to have a very confused version of history here. The Soviet-German pact came before even you Brits entered the war, and the US declared war on Germany--after Pearl Harbor, yes, you got that part right--after the Germans invaded the Soviet Union.

Check the Gallup Polls. ~62% of American knew we'd be getting into the European War "before long". This was in November 1941, BTW. They knew "something had to be done about Hitler."

I've seen interesting studies that lead one to believe that FDR could have gotten a US declaration of war against Japan by, say, March 1942.
 

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