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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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she was fearful

I've seen no evidence that Amanda was especially eager to please others and avoid confrontation. I've also seen no evidence that she is mentally retarded or particularly suggestible. Finally, I've seen no evidence that she was highly anxious, fearful, depressed, delusional, or otherwise psychologically disordered. This citation does not appear to support the "coerced false confession" theory.

It should also be noted, yet again, that in Amanda's case it was NOT a false confession at any rate, but rather a false accusation. The given citation is completely silent with regard to false accusations. Or false statements. The title of the piece is "False Confessions: Causes, Consequences, and Implications for Reform", which I note that Kevin_Lowe neglected to mention in his post.

Her fear of going out in the dark caused her to quit her job at Patrick's bar. She said to Raffaele that if she had not been with him the night of 1 November, that she would have been dead also. When Amanda was asked to imagine the crime, she complied. I take this as evidence of an eagerness to please, but I realize that you are free espouse a different opinion.

We have previously discussed examples of combined false confessions/accusations here with respect to a case in Ada, Oklahoma and elsewhere. In Amanda's case, it was a confession in the sense that if she had been at the crime and done nothing, that would have been against the law.
 
Was it also as evident to you as it was to me how visible Filomena's window is from this same vantage point? Her window is just as visible as that doorway which is why I can't wrap my head around the theory that Rudy scaled that wall, not once but twice, first to open the shutters, then back down to throw the rock, then up once again to climb through in through the window.
The balcony is infinitely more plausible to me and less visible allowing a much quicker entry.

Except that Filomena's window is angled away from the street and would be in darkness. The front door is directly opposite a street lamp...
 
If the knife wasn't in the drawer, how, exactly would the police know that the knife was missing? How would the police even know there was a knife in the first place? Would the police go to the landlord and ask about kitchen knives? Why would the police even do that?What would be the cause? We smelled "clean when we opened the drawer but we didn't find the murder weapon. So, landlord, can you tell us if the murder weapon was there in the first place?
 
He was "friends" with the downstairs flatmates? News to me - I got the impression he was in their flat a couple of times as a hanger-on, trying to ingratiate himself, possibly in his "alleged" capacity as a drug dealer.

I assume we're back to the "burglars union code of conduct" and (yet)more 'incredulity' when you ask, rhetorically, "how frequent it is for burglars to break into their friends houses?"

I'd be willing to bet that it isn't AT ALL uncommon.

Anyway - who do you think it was lurking outside the cottage? Not of interest? Nothing to do with the murder?
Hi Supernaut,
In my own search for the truth regarding the brutal murder of Miss Kercher, I've been curious to try and find out more info on what Rudy Guede was doing that night, for we do know that he was in the apartment at some time. But was he the actual murderer?
Or possibly someone else like Luciano Aviello and Mario Alessi have mentioned?

Reading on another website I came across this tidbit that I had not known of:
From Rudy's German diary:

"Then I headed for Meredith's house. With all the running around I did, I think it would have been around 8:30 p.m. Because we were supposed to see each other at that time, even though I didn't have a watch I tried to arrive on time, because I usually arrive late. As I arrived in front of the house, I noticed a white car with headlights on, and a Drug-Dealer I often saw on Garibaldi Avenue, but I didn't make much of this and I went into the yard. I knocked on the door, but no one answered. I went downstairs to the guy's place but no one was there either. So then, I waited in the yard."

snip
It is not a stretch to believe that possibly Rudy saw a drug dealer making a connection with his supplier right there in front of the house. At that same time, Meredith was arriving at the house from having dinner with her friends. We also know that her cellphone shows that she tried to call home at that very time.

8:56pm (20:56) (Meredith’s house) Meredith’s cell phone calls her mother but call is cut off before it is finished.

If Meredith was making a call home outside with her cellphone at the same time that a drug dealer was picking up his supply in the area of her house, did this drug dealer believe that Meredith was a police informant? Witnessing drug deals have been the reason that others have been murdered by drug gangs.


Link here:
http://alternatetheories-perugiamur.../11/post-79-another-motive-possibly-drug.html

I was not aware that there was a car there when Rudy Guede says he showed up. It also mentions how he knew no one was home downstairs...

Wondering what might have happened when Miss Kercher was inside the apartment, I found more info on this same website that I wasn't aware of what Rudy Guede said he did:
RG interrogation of December 7 2007 with Judge Matteini when Rudy Guede

RG. ...I got to the door, there was this male silhouette, a male shape standing, he was inside the room that is, here is the bed, at the end, at the very bottom of the bed he was covering me like this, I said what happens...in fact I placed my hand, my left hand on his right shoulder and at the same time I saw Meredith's body on the floor...
Judge. Describe this person
RG. So, this person I first saw the shoulder and also the head in the sense of what he was wearing on his head, I can describe what he was wearing
Judge. ...How was he, first was he taller or shorter than you?
RG. No he got up to here, here, he wasn't taller. A bit shorter than me
Judge. How was his hair?
RG. He was wearing a white cap with a red stripe around here. I could see the hair because the abat jour was switched on, I saw against the light his hair was brown ...
Judge... Have you seen his face?
RG....No, because he tried to slash me with the knife and I covered my face with my hand...
J. What was he wearing?
RG. He had a black jacket, I could recognized the jacket because I saw the Napapijri logo
J. Was it a jacket with a zipper?
RG. Yes it was a close-fitting jacket
J. But then, you weren't able to see his face?
RG. There was a soft light on the night table...
J. Where was Meredith?
RG. She was laying on the floor next to the night table with the blood that meanwhile had started flowing ...
J. What have you done when you saw this?
RG. I tried to defend myself and while I was backing off I fell, I remember well, between the fridge and the table.
J. So you both exited Meredith 's room?
RG. I was backing off and also crawling
J. While you were backing off was this person always in front of you?
RG. Yes because it was a ferocious thing, he attacked me ferociously
J. Answer to this question: was this person looking straight up to your face?
RG. Yes I believe so, I really believe so.


Link here:
http://alternatetheories-perugiamur.../11/post-72-update-did-rudy-fall-in-both.html

I found it interesting that Rudy Guede says he actually touched this guy on the shoulder, said "what's happens" and then this person tried to slash him with a knife.
Curiously, he also mentions a soft light(Amnada Knox's borrowed lamp maybe?) on the night table.

I find this website interesting when looking at the big picture, for LMT seems to believe the murderer of Miss Kercher was left handed and possibly someone with military experience. But not Rudy Guede.
Hmmm...
RWVBWL
 
If you want to argue this point, you are going to need to step back and understand the context in which that excerpt was written.

Now you are out of context, I did not argue anything,
I just provided my translation of an excerpt of Raffaeles diary (in answer to a post)



l fatto che c’è del Dna di Meredith sul coltello da cucina è perché una volta mentre cucinavamo insieme, io, spostandomi in casa maneggiando il coltello, l’ho punta sulla mano, e subito dopo le ho chiesto scusa ma lei non si era fatta niente. Quindi l’unica vera spiegazione a quel coltello da cucina è questa.



My translation:

l fatto che c’è del Dna di Meredith sul coltello da cucina è
The fact that there is the DNA of Meredith on the kitchen knife is,

perché una volta mentre cucinavamo insieme
because at one time while we are cooking together,

io, spostandomi in casa maneggiando il coltello
I, staying in the house and handling the knife
** here is not clear which house: the cottage or his flat **

l'ho punta sulla mano.........
I pricked her (still referring Meredith) on the hand...........
 
Anyone know how hard the investigators tried to source the unidentifed donor DNA on the bra clasp?

For example, did they at least check it against the other roommates, and the young man downstairs who Miss Kercher was seeing?
 
DNA on the bra clasp

Anyone know how hard the investigators tried to source the unidentifed donor DNA on the bra clasp?

For example, did they at least check it against the other roommates, and the young man downstairs who Miss Kercher was seeing?

To the best of my knowledge ILE did not collect reference samples from Laura or Filomena. let alone the men downstairs.
 
Anyone know how hard the investigators tried to source the unidentifed donor DNA on the bra clasp?

For example, did they at least check it against the other roommates, and the young man downstairs who Miss Kercher was seeing?

They should check the DNA of the crime scene workers for accidental contamination. That's common, both the accidental contamination, and testing for it by comparing to the workers - isn't it?
 
To the best of my knowledge ILE did not collect reference samples from Laura or Filomena. let alone the men downstairs.

Per Charlie, there were no unidentified profiles from the samples that were complete enough to produce a full profile.

We've been over there, Chris. Multiple times. (so, there's once that I've corrected you - or at least set the record straight).


TMB is less sensitive than Luminol. In fact, TMB needs a minimum of 5 cells to return a positive test. Regardless of which test was performed, there were, at most, 2 cells tested for blood. That you refuse to acknowledge that even if they were both red blood cells, Luminol and TMB would not necessarily have returned positive results because it would be at the range limit for either test. (so there's twice that I've corrected you on DNA matters)


Blood cells are not the only cells which contain DNA, therefore, the cells need not test positive for blood to retrieve accurate DNA results. Therefore, the argument that "if there are no blood cells due to bleaching, there can be no other cells" is not proven as we don't know if there were, in fact, blood cells. (that's 3 times, I believe)


You, yourself, have claimed that even in a lab environment where equipment is cleaned thoroughly, the strong bleach content doesn't necessarily remove all DNA containing cells from instruments such as pipettes. However, a more dilute bleach concentrate was able to remove all traces of DNA from a knife? These cells were not found on the surface, they were found in a crevice. Therefore, your argument in regards to the chances of them being found is contrary to your prior argument regarding the possibility of contamination in a laboratory. (so, does that make 4?)



Thanks for playing. Have a nice day.
 
I could find a better description as my bumpy one:

Roaming in Europe
Main article: Regulation on roaming charges within the European Union

In the European Union, the Regulation on roaming charges has been in force since June 30, 2007, forcing service providers to lower their roaming fees across the 27-member bloc. The regulation sets a price cap of €0.39 (€0.49 in 2007, €0.46 in 2008, €.043 in 2009) per minute for outgoing calls, and €0.15 (€0.24 in 2007, €0.22 in 2008, €0.19 in 2009) per minute for incoming calls - excluding tax.[2] If the Commission is satisfied that competition will continue to keep prices at this level, or lower, the regulation will expire in mid 2010 (in force since June 30, 2007 for three years).

I think you might be misunderstanding. Everyone agrees that it would be significantly more expensive for Meredith to use her UK mobile phone within Italy in Sept-Nov 2007 than it would be for her to use her Italian phone*.

Instead, what's at issue is why Meredith would have started a call to the UK, then immediately terminated it on account of cost, some six weeks into her visit to Italy. This is behaviour that might be expected within the first week or two of her visit, when she was still adjusting to life in Italy. Even more bizarre and unexplainable is the failed call to her UK bank, which was dialled from her phone memory without an international or UK prefix. Meredith would absolutely certainly have known the need for a prefix from Italy to the UK. So why didn't she immediately redial the bank number, this time with the relevant prefixes, when she realised the mistake?

I suspect the real reason is that it wasn't Meredith who pushed those buttons and placed those unintentional calls. I suspect that someone else pushed those buttons. I suspect that this someone was the person who killed her, or an accomplice.

* assuming that the underlying tariffs were similar - although from recollection, Italian tariffs were actually cheaper in general than UK tariffs around this time).
 
Raffaele before the Supreme Court

Kermit,

You wrote about Raffaele’s appearance before the supreme court and used it to justify your belief that Raffaele left Amanda without an alibi. Your comment appears to be incorrect with respect to terminology. According to Perugia-Shock (25 April 2008) the lawyers invoked the concept of “erroneous assumption,” rather than “erroneous belief.” If they had said erroneous belief, it would mean that Amanda was not with him. But erroneous assumption has more to do with making an assumption than with the thing being assumed. Thus there is no justification for using his appearance before the Supreme Court as evidence that Raffaele did not support Amanda's alibi.
 
Incidentally, "questura" is simply the Italian word for "police HQ". Why not just say "police HQ"? After all, following this logic, should we also refer to "la casa di Meredith", or talk about the "coltello" (or "coltelli") that she was killed with? Why the penchant for certain Italian words and not others?
 
Real world case involving strangulation

halides1,

Thank you, the 17 tests that yielded profiles from LCN testing were probably the 7 offender/victim and 10 no DNA results that were found by standard testing (12 were just victim). I was not aware of the sampling periods used, was SGMplus used throughout this period (1 min to 10 days) or was there a cutoff where the SGMplus was used, and does this indicate how long after an assault standard testing can be used?

In the Rutty 2002 study, I also believe the volunteers necks and hands were cleaned prior to the experiments to minimise unknown DNA, but some of the results still showed a low level of unknown DNA, which raised the question of the validity of swabbing for offender DNA from the study.

I do not think you will find any real world legal cases to back up your expectations, since this is an area which is still being investigated with more recent academic studies into DNA left on a victim after an assault.

Odeed,

From the 2002 study by G. Rutty, “Of the test neck swabs, 19 yielded positive amplification results using SGMplus, 12 showed a victim-only profile and 7 a victim and offender profile with a full offender profile detectable up to 6 h after contact. When LCN was used (17 tests) all showed the offender to be present for all time periods i.e. up to 10 days. In the majority of cases it was a partial offender profile with the majority of the amplification result being a full victim profile.”

P. Wiegand and M. Kleiber, “DNA typing of epithelial cells after strangulation,” International Journal of Legal Medicine (1997) 110 :181–183. These authors describe an actual case of strangulation in which there was a two-day period between the murder and the collection of evidence. “In a stain case in which strangulation was the cause of death the victim was found and examined approximately 48 h after death. Strangulation marks were clearly visible on the neck of the victim. Epithelial cells could be removed from the neck of the victim using separate cotton swabs for the left and the right side of the neck. Only the swab from the right side could be typed and included the pattern of the suspect (Fig. 3), a result which corresponded to the autopsy findings (the right neck side showed a higher intensity of bleeding in the muscles than the left side indicating a more intensive pressure against the right side). Altogether clear results could be obtained using four STRs (TH01, VWA, FGA, CD4) demonstrating the high utility and sensitivity of the method described.”

Here is a reference to the abstract of the 1997 article. Hope this helps.
 
There is a simpler explanation for the uncompleted phone call at 8:56 PM. Meredith attempted to call her mother shortly after leaving her friend Sophie at 8:55 PM. The phone call didn't complete because at that time, Meredith would have been walking down this narrow street in Perugia. Medieval stone walls are not good for cell phone reception.

Meredith would know that cell phone reception at the cottage was better, and may have decided to try again when she got home.
 
OK - so now you concede that it is not common for burglars to defecate at the scene, merely that it's "not unknown". Thus, even though you hold that it's unlikely for any given burglar to do so, you think that in this case, Rudy did. Why?

Let's go for another trip around the repetition roundabout. The defence's job is not to prove that they know exactly why the Texas Sharpshooter put every bullet exactly where it landed. It is merely to demonstrate that the bullet's location is not proof beyond reasonable doubt that the accused did it.

We have demonstrated that sometimes burglars leave stools at the scene of a crime. It is therefore not extraordinary that Rudy did so in the process of a burglary, and it is not evidence that some alternative story where Rudy was not a lone housebreaker is true. Our job is done.

Actually, no. That's an additional theory, not an alternative one. There is no "alternative theory" to AK's false statements - they are demonstrably false statements. The best one can do is to charitably attribute all of the misstatements to "memory lapses" or "temporary amnesia" or "false memories".

Or statements taken out of context, or statements made in an attempt to make sense of being told that there was DNA where it shouldn't have been, or that witnesses had claimed to have seen them where they had not been.

Good catch, Mr.D. I'd also note that the paragraph before the discussion of youth as a factor goes into more detail regarding dispositional vulnerabilities:

I've seen no evidence that Amanda was especially eager to please others and avoid confrontation. I've also seen no evidence that she is mentally retarded or particularly suggestible. Finally, I've seen no evidence that she was highly anxious, fearful, depressed, delusional, or otherwise psychologically disordered. This citation does not appear to support the "coerced false confession" theory.

This isn't bingo, and you don't need to tick every box to win. Perfectly normal people can crack and make false statements too, those are just conditions that predispose people to do so and Amanda was subject to some of those conditions (youth, naivety, possibly drug use, probably sleep deprivation and almost certainly innocence of the crime in question).

It should also be noted, yet again, that in Amanda's case it was NOT a false confession at any rate, but rather a false accusation. The given citation is completely silent with regard to false accusations. Or false statements. The title of the piece is "False Confessions: Causes, Consequences, and Implications for Reform", which I note that Kevin_Lowe neglected to mention in his post.

It's funny that you aren't from PMF, because this is one of their favourite talking points and it's also totally meaningless. I deliberately avoid characterising Amanda's statement as a "false confession" myself, as opposed to a "false statement", to head off PMFers who want to head down that tangent.

So in response: Firstly, you have not shown the existence of some natural point of cleavage in human neurology such that circumstances which can provoke a false confession can not produce other false statements. Secondly, we have already cited case studies of people hauled in by police making false statements that incriminated themselves and other innocent people, just as Amanda's statement is taken to do by guilters. Therefore I conclude that this is a semantic argument in the pejorative sense: an attempt to muddle the waters with irrelevant word games.

I'm always amused by the "In my experience I never ..." sort of statements which pop up in Internet discussions because they are so often promptly contradicted by someone whose experience is entirely different.

I'll field this one. I've rented several furnished apartments (mostly in college towns) and any number of 'extended stay' units while working on out-of-town projects. All of the ones which provided kitchen cutlery as part of the "furnishings" quite pointedly noted that they had been inventoried, and made me sign a document acknowledging such before allowing possession of the unit.

There. My experiences meet your experiences. I guess that makes it a wash.

If you want to read and respond to what I actually wrote, I said "I have never yet encountered a landlord who regularly inventoried the contents of the cutlery drawer". Neither have you, from what you have stated. At worst a guilty Amanda and Raffaele would have to have replaced the knife by the time they moved out of the apartment. There was no immediate threat of discovery by means of an ill-timed fork inventory, which was the claim I refuted.
 
Thank you Dan O, very nice shot actually with the fruit and the fog, although it's rather difficult to figure out from where this picture is taken when trying to coordinate it with the Google street view which only shows the balcony when you are pretty far away and not at all as you get closer.


From the difference in the foliage, it is apparent the the Google street view was taken at a different time of year.



Was it also as evident to you as it was to me how visible Filomena's window is from this same vantage point? Her window is just as visible as that doorway which is why I can't wrap my head around the theory that Rudy scaled that wall, not once but twice, first to open the shutters, then back down to throw the rock, then up once again to climb through in through the window.


You are presenting a strawman. There is no need to scale that wall even once to gain entry through Filomena's window.


The balcony is infinitely more plausible to me and less visible allowing a much quicker entry.


Only an idiot would choose to enter a potentially occupied cottage by way of the "exposed from all directions" balcony. When Rudy breaks the window and the occupant wakes and turns on the lights, where is Rudy going to hide on that balcony?
 
Now you are out of context, I did not argue anything,
I just provided my translation of an excerpt of Raffaeles diary (in answer to a post)

...

I pricked her (still referring Meredith) on the hand...........

Let's go for yet another trip around the repetition merry-go-round. Raffaele's grammar is poor but he is clearly referring to touching Amanda's hand with the knife.

Nobody (not Raffaele, not Amanda, nobody) has ever claimed, before or since, that Meredith was ever at Raffaele's apartment. The idea that Raffaele is claiming that here is very silly.

This is not a mistake on the part of Raffaele, it's a mistake on the part of translators which we have already cleared up at least twice in this thread.
 
To me this has always seemed like the most unrealistic argument as to why the knife would've been kept. Even if the knife was listed separately in an inventory of the cottage (as opposed to just coming under 'cutlery') it was just a cheap kitchen knife. I very much doubt the landlord would've known if they'd replaced it with another cheap kitchen knife. And when would the landlord even have found out about it? Most likely when Raffaele left the apartment and they did an inspection. They could easily have said the knife was damaged or lost; but my guess is they wouldn't have needed to do either if they'd replaced it with another.

I just think it's completely implausible that faced with the police discovering the knife and testing it, or the landlord discovering in a year's time that they'd replaced it, they would decide the landlord issue was the more important one. Even supposing that for some reason the landlord found out immediately and told the police, there would be nothing to prove when the knife had been replaced, and nothing to connect the missing knife to the crime (particularly considering that knife didn't fit either the print on the bedsheet nor 2/3 wounds). It's not in any way realistic to think they kept it just because it came with the flat. The risk of the police finding it MASSIVELY outweighs any other risk.

_______________________

When would the landlord find out? Umm, maybe when the police got a search warrant and asked the landlord about which items had been added or subtracted from the premises? The cleaning lady herself would have noticed the large kitchen knife missing, as she was able to identify the knife in court. Here is what Raffaele's cutlery drawer looked like, just after the cops had removed the large kitchen knife

image.php


Not exactly a large selection.

And there'd be nothing to prove when the knife had been replaced? Huh? Images of the lovebirds had flooded television sets since the day after the murder. An innocuous purchase of underpants didn't go unnoticed, so the lovebirds are supposed to purchase a large knife anonymously, before the cops got a search warrant for Raffaele's flat?

If the lovebirds had just cleaned the knife properly, there would have been no risk at all in retaining the knife. There was more risk---in my opinion--- in going out and buying a replacement.

Bear in mind, my original post on this subject was in response to LondonJohn's "why in the world" bewilderment at the lovebirds keeping the knife. There was some risk in keeping it, some risk in discarding it. Neither option was unreasonable. Maybe we can agree on that.

///
 
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