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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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So, no True Scotsman fallacy, eh?

No matter what the Police did, it was wrong.


The Police identified a possible scenario given the first look at the crimescene. They were incompetent then. But, they went ahead and continued the investigation. That they changed their theories based on further investigation and evidence is further sign of their incompetence. If they weren't incompetent, they would have gotten it right the first time. Of course, because they didnt' get it right the first (or second, or third, etc) time, they wound up planting/falsifying evidence to implicate Amanda and Raffaele.

Meanwhile, The Police hunted down Rudy after the evidence indicated he was there. The Police also cleared an innocent man. Those are hardly the actions of Police looking to just save face. If saving face was their sole goal - they would have found a way to ignore Rudy's guilt and keep Patrick imprisoned. Instead, the Police followed through on the investigation and got the right people.

Why were the police briefing the media on day one of the investigation with any "theories" whatsoever, let alone theories that were so palpably wrong? Why did the media even need to know police theories at this point (or, for that matter, at any point before a judicial hearing)?
 
No matter what the Police did, it was wrong.
_________________________________________________________________

Hi BobtheDonkey,
Don't you see this as police incompetence?:

It was Raffaelle's 21 year old cousin Annamaria who correctly counted that Raff's Nike shoes had only 7 circles on their sole, instead of the 11 that where found on the shoeprints that supposedly helped originally lock him up.

Is this just another example of the excellant work they did?
Or incompetence?:confused:
Hmmm...
RWVBWL

PS-It was many,many things, such as this 1,
that moved me out of the Amanda+Raffaele are 'guilty' crowd,
where I had originally started out from by reading the early media accounts of this brutal murder...
 
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We know prison officials lied to Amanda when they told her - twice - that she had tested positively for HIV.

No evidence for such has been presented here. Please demonstrate that officials knew that Knox's HIV test results were a false positive before she was told of them.

We know this was a form of psychological torture.

Unsupported assertion. Bruce, Charlie, halides (or LondonJohn or anyone else for that matter), do any of you agree with this statement unequivocally?

Shall I go on? All of these behaviors are extraordinary, in most cases unethical, and in some cases illegal.

Please point out specifically which ones are illegal and document relevant Italian law.



ETA: I am not by any means arguing that the investigation was perfect. In fact many shortcomings have been well documented here (announcing the case closed by press conference?!? not taping the interviews, media leaks out the wazoo etc.)
 
So, no True Scotsman fallacy, eh?

No matter what the Police did, it was wrong.

The Police identified a possible scenario given the first look at the crimescene. They were incompetent then. But, they went ahead and continued the investigation. That they changed their theories based on further investigation and evidence is further sign of their incompetence. If they weren't incompetent, they would have gotten it right the first time. Of course, because they didnt' get it right the first (or second, or third, etc) time, they wound up planting/falsifying evidence to implicate Amanda and Raffaele.

Not everyone says the police were incompetent at all points. I, for one, have always accepted the first impressions the police had, which were that it was a single man-on-woman crime and that the burglary was staged.

The police did not change their theories based on further investigation and evidence. The only realistic lead they developed was the text conversation between Amanda and Patrick on the night of the crime. They should have followed that lead according to normal protocol, and then quit while they were ahead.

The higher-ups changed the original police theories -- based on intuition -- and the police had to go along with it. Then Mignini changed the theories again, based on his own sexual fantasies. That's what made it necessary to plant and falsify evidence. The police were not in a position to defy instructions.

Meanwhile, The Police hunted down Rudy after the evidence indicated he was there. The Police also cleared an innocent man. Those are hardly the actions of Police looking to just save face. If saving face was their sole goal - they would have found a way to ignore Rudy's guilt and keep Patrick imprisoned. Instead, the Police followed through on the investigation and got the right people.

The police had no choice but to hunt down Rudy, and they had no choice but to release Patrick. It was the continued incarceration of Amanda and Raffaele that were completely elective on the part of the Perugian authorities. Many posters on this thread have offered several possible, reasonable explanations for why the two innocent suspects were kept in captivity.
 
No evidence for such has been presented here. Please demonstrate that officials knew that Knox's HIV test results were a false positive before she was told of them.

Unsupported assertion. Bruce, Charlie, halides (or LondonJohn or anyone else for that matter), do any of you agree with this statement unequivocally?

Please point out specifically which ones are illegal and document relevant Italian law.

ETA: I am not by any means arguing that the investigation was perfect. In fact many shortcomings have been well documented here (announcing the case closed by press conference?!? not taping the interviews, media leaks out the wazoo etc.)

I want to reply to you, Mr. D., but I have to run out for a while. I'll get back to you on this.
 
As far as *spur of the moment*, Charlie, that's how a lot of killings occur. Anger escalates, tempers flare, drink and drugs certainly play into that. As to motive? I don't know who stole the money, certainly Patrick had said Amanda was very jealous of Meredith. Meredith was annoyed at some of Amanda's habits. Was this enough to set of this storm? Amanda's and Raff's lies, can't remembers, confused, started the ball rolling. Say what you will, Raff did throw Amanda under the bus, Amanda did blame an innocent person..and I can't imagine anyone doing that, even if given a couple of cuffs and some shouting. Was it premeditated? I don't believe so. But, I do think that the drugs and drinking played a major part in what went down.
 
As far as *spur of the moment*, Charlie, that's how a lot of killings occur. Anger escalates, tempers flare, drink and drugs certainly play into that. As to motive? I don't know who stole the money, certainly Patrick had said Amanda was very jealous of Meredith. Meredith was annoyed at some of Amanda's habits. Was this enough to set of this storm? Amanda's and Raff's lies, can't remembers, confused, started the ball rolling. Say what you will, Raff did throw Amanda under the bus, Amanda did blame an innocent person..and I can't imagine anyone doing that, even if given a couple of cuffs and some shouting. Was it premeditated? I don't believe so. But, I do think that the drugs and drinking played a major part in what went down.

OK, Patrick testified at the trial, in April of last year. Did he report hearing Amanda say anything negative to or about Meredith? Did he describe any kind of negative interaction between Amanda and Meredith? I don't remember hearing or reading about this.

Second, about the drinking... how do you know that alcohol played any role in this crime? Were empty bottles found? Did someone testify that Amanda, Raffaele, or Rudy were drinking that night?

You've got some information that I'm missing but would like to have. Could you point me to your source?
 
Look at ALL the discrepencies, look at the WHOLE picture. Doesn't anything seem out of sinc, here guys? ANYTHING??

There's a pattern of thinking I want to lay out here, that I think lies at the root of the Amanda-is-guilty case.

The first part of the pattern is that it's human nature (demonstrated by psychological studies) that most people find a large number of bad arguments more persuasive than a single watertight argument. This is the exact opposite of strictly rational behaviour, which would be to discard bad arguments regardless of volume but to be convinced by a single argument if it's genuinely sound.

(This is why the moon hoaxers have dozens of really bad arguments for their kooky beliefs, as do the 9/11 deniers. Volume counts far more than quality to the kind of thinkers these movements attract).

The second part is confirmation bias, the well-known habit of the mind to highlight and retain information that confirms a hypothesis and to ignore or forget information that falsifies it. Everyone's mind does this. This leads people who already think AK and RF are guilty to see every minor oddity or contradiction as more evidence that AK and RF are guilty, regardless of whether it has any relevance. You can see this very clearly in the recent exchanges where people found the order in which AK called MK's phones to be evidence of her guilt, when the order in which the phones were called is manifestly utterly irrelevant to her innocence or guilt.

I suspect it's these two effects together that give rise to the echo chamber whack-a-mole effect, where no PMF talking point stays down for long even if it's been shown to be false. You can whack that mole down, but enough people ignore it or forget it (confirmation bias at work) that it pops right back up again in a page or two.

What I'm sensing here is frustration because you find a large, well-reinforced array of bad arguments highly compelling and we don't. The AK/RS-are-not-proven-guilty side often points out that there is no solid, unimpeachable evidence linking them to the murder at all. Or in other words, there is not a single really good argument for their guilt. Just a large number of bad arguments, each of which a rational person should discard. A large number of bad arguments do not add up to a good argument.

I'm going to say that again because it's very important.

A large number of bad arguments do not add up to a good argument.

So Amanda and Rudy were not best chums. Does that mean the rest of the body of evidence against Amanda is invalid?

Here's a recent illustration of this kind of thinking: A talking point gets whacked down yet again (this is very definitely not the first time in this thread for this talking point). BobTheDonkey isn't worried though, because he's got plenty more arguments.

Amanda did blame an innocent person..and I can't imagine anyone doing that, even if given a couple of cuffs and some shouting.

Here's another: The fact that Amanda's false accusation matches up neatly with what we know of false statements elicited by police interrogations has just been discussed again, yet the mole pops right back up. We've linked to the relevant case studies, we've demonstrated that Amanda's statement is in important ways a textbook case of a false statement elicited by police interrogation, but the mole doesn't stay down.

As I said before, the more minutiae you examine the more meaningless contradictions or Texas Sharpshooter "oddities" you will find, in absolutely any case. It's been thoroughly illustrated that there are plenty of such "oddities" in the police and Filomena's behaviour, yet in those cases (probably due to lack of confirmation bias on that issue) it's not taken as evidence they were in on a murder. What we're seeing in the PMF community is confirmation bias in a self-reinforcing cycle, as people convinced of AK and RF's guilt examine more and more minute details of the case and so develop more and more bad arguments for their guilt.

This thread is going to go on forever unless people exercise some intellectual hygiene, as it were, and take responsibility for dropping those talking points which have been discredited. Bad arguments need to be scrubbed away and not allowed to grow back like mould, and it's each person's responsibility as a rational human being to do their own scrubbing, not to make someone else do it for you.
 
Here you are Charlie. Patrick talks about How Amanda hated Meredith and why. Ho jealous she was etc etc. SUNDAY MIRROR: November 25th 2007. By Simon Wright. in Perugia. The drugs and drinking? Firm innocenter JUDY BACHRACH: In OBIT: *Murder, Mayhem and Amanda Knox. April 27th 2010.
 
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Here you are Charlie. Patrick talks about How Amanda hated Meredith and why. Ho jealous she was etc etc. SUNDAY MIRROR: November 25th 2007. By Simon Wright. in Perugia. The drugs and drinking? Firm innocenter JUDY BACHRACH: In OBIT: *Murder, Mayhem and Amanda Knox. April 27th 2010.

OK, I know what the tabloids put out and I know what Bachrach wrote. But when did this come out in the trial? Did Patrick testify in court that Amanda was jealous of Meredith? Did anyone present evidence during the trial that linked the murder to alcohol consumption?
 
Well, if you suddenly want to discount the reporting you don't like..then people can read it for themselves and make up their own mind. Many things that are true and actually hapened don't come out in trial. Prejudicial to the suspects, prior bad acts, etc. Which goes to the advantage of the accused. Even so, still a guilty verdict.
 
There's a pattern of thinking I want to lay out here, that I think lies at the root of the Amanda-is-guilty case.

The first part of the pattern is that it's human nature (demonstrated by psychological studies) that most people find a large number of bad arguments more persuasive than a single watertight argument. This is the exact opposite of strictly rational behaviour, which would be to discard bad arguments regardless of volume but to be convinced by a single argument if it's genuinely sound.

(This is why the moon hoaxers have dozens of really bad arguments for their kooky beliefs, as do the 9/11 deniers. Volume counts far more than quality to the kind of thinkers these movements attract).

The second part is confirmation bias, the well-known habit of the mind to highlight and retain information that confirms a hypothesis and to ignore or forget information that falsifies it. Everyone's mind does this. This leads people who already think AK and RF are guilty to see every minor oddity or contradiction as more evidence that AK and RF are guilty, regardless of whether it has any relevance. You can see this very clearly in the recent exchanges where people found the order in which AK called MK's phones to be evidence of her guilt, when the order in which the phones were called is manifestly utterly irrelevant to her innocence or guilt.

I suspect it's these two effects together that give rise to the echo chamber whack-a-mole effect, where no PMF talking point stays down for long even if it's been shown to be false. You can whack that mole down, but enough people ignore it or forget it (confirmation bias at work) that it pops right back up again in a page or two.

What I'm sensing here is frustration because you find a large, well-reinforced array of bad arguments highly compelling and we don't. The AK/RS-are-not-proven-guilty side often points out that there is no solid, unimpeachable evidence linking them to the murder at all. Or in other words, there is not a single really good argument for their guilt. Just a large number of bad arguments, each of which a rational person should discard. A large number of bad arguments do not add up to a good argument.

I'm going to say that again because it's very important.

A large number of bad arguments do not add up to a good argument.



Here's a recent illustration of this kind of thinking: A talking point gets whacked down yet again (this is very definitely not the first time in this thread for this talking point). BobTheDonkey isn't worried though, because he's got plenty more arguments.



Here's another: The fact that Amanda's false accusation matches up neatly with what we know of false statements elicited by police interrogations has just been discussed again, yet the mole pops right back up. We've linked to the relevant case studies, we've demonstrated that Amanda's statement is in important ways a textbook case of a false statement elicited by police interrogation, but the mole doesn't stay down.

As I said before, the more minutiae you examine the more meaningless contradictions or Texas Sharpshooter "oddities" you will find, in absolutely any case. It's been thoroughly illustrated that there are plenty of such "oddities" in the police and Filomena's behaviour, yet in those cases (probably due to lack of confirmation bias on that issue) it's not taken as evidence they were in on a murder. What we're seeing in the PMF community is confirmation bias in a self-reinforcing cycle, as people convinced of AK and RF's guilt examine more and more minute details of the case and so develop more and more bad arguments for their guilt.

This thread is going to go on forever unless people exercise some intellectual hygiene, as it were, and take responsibility for dropping those talking points which have been discredited. Bad arguments need to be scrubbed away and not allowed to grow back like mould, and it's each person's responsibility as a rational human being to do their own scrubbing, not to make someone else do it for you.

Irony.

You want to know who the true CTers are in this thread? Look at all the people for whom no amount of evidence is enough. Look at all the people for whom special pleading (DNA results) is commonplace. Look at all the people who claim the Police and Investigators and Judges were out to get the defendants. Look at all the people who argue that everyone but Amanda and Raffaele are liars - and the lies that Amanda and Raffaele told were either insignificant or coerced, etc. Look at the people who twist the facts to fit their story, meanwhile ignoring other parts of the narrative that their latest bullet-point contradicts.

That's where your conspiracy lies.
 
Well, if you suddenly want to discount the reporting you don't like..then people can read it for themselves and make up their own mind. Many things that are true and actually hapened don't come out in trial. Prejudicial to the suspects, prior bad acts, etc. Which goes to the advantage of the accused. Even so, still a guilty verdict.

Are you saying that when Patrick testified, he was not asked what he knew about the relationship between Amanda and Meredith, lest his answer prejudice the court? Are you saying there is evidence that Amanda Knox was drinking heavily on the night of the murder, but it was not introduced during the trial lest it prejudice the court?
 
There's a pattern of thinking I want to lay out here, that I think lies at the root of the Amanda-is-guilty case.

The first part of the pattern is that it's human nature (demonstrated by psychological studies) that most people find a large number of bad arguments more persuasive than a single watertight argument. This is the exact opposite of strictly rational behaviour, which would be to discard bad arguments regardless of volume but to be convinced by a single argument if it's genuinely sound.

Yes. Mignini and his colleagues have put together a mountain of evidence... all of which proves nothing.

Another way of looking at this is that many people cannot differentiate evidence that means something - bloody fingerprints on a pillow in the victim's room - from evidence that means nothing - mixed DNA in the bathroom.

Also, we're seeing here that many people cannot believe a police department and a series of judges would collaborate on a travesty of justice rather than admit to a mistake.
 
Yes. Mignini and his colleagues have put together a mountain of evidence... all of which proves nothing.

Another way of looking at this is that many people cannot differentiate evidence that means something - bloody fingerprints on a pillow in the victim's room - from evidence that means nothing - mixed DNA in the bathroom.

Also, we're seeing here that many people cannot believe a police department and a series of judges would collaborate on a travesty of justice rather than admit to a mistake.
So if Amanda's DNA was innocently mixed in with Meredith's blood (a la Filomena's room, a la the bathroom), where was the DNA from Filomena found? After all, if the DNA was left in the normal day-to-day of living in the cottage, should not have Filomena's DNA been found in a substantial enough amount to provide a full profile in at least the spot found in Filomena's bedroom? And, yet, by your own admission, this is not the case.

Again, the special pleading is remarkable.
 
So if Amanda's DNA was innocently mixed in with Meredith's blood (a la Filomena's room, a la the bathroom), where was the DNA from Filomena found? After all, if the DNA was left in the normal day-to-day of living in the cottage, should not have Filomena's DNA been found in a substantial enough amount to provide a full profile in at least the spot found in Filomena's bedroom? And, yet, by your own admission, this is not the case.

Again, the special pleading is remarkable.

I'm not sure what you mean by special pleading. If you think this mixed DNA is incriminating, what does it mean? What activity caused Amanda's DNA to become mixed with Meredith's DNA on the floor of Filomena's room?

They did luminol tests in Raffaele's apartment too, and they found his DNA mixed with Amanda's in the bathroom and in the bedroom. What does it prove?
 
Yes. Mignini and his colleagues have put together a mountain of evidence... all of which proves nothing.

Another way of looking at this is that many people cannot differentiate evidence that means something - bloody fingerprints on a pillow in the victim's room - from evidence that means nothing - mixed DNA in the bathroom.

Also, we're seeing here that many people cannot believe a police department and a series of judges would collaborate on a travesty of justice rather than admit to a mistake.

That's odd because they admitted to a mistake when they released Patrick.
 
If you are denying that Amanda had been drinking that night, then you have taken away one of the mitigating factors of Amanda's participation. Also, Judy Bachrach is a liar, as well as an inept reporter. As you know what she wrote, and you disagree with her. No one has refuted what Patrick told the reporter.
 
That's odd because they admitted to a mistake when they released Patrick.

Did they? Last I saw it was Amanda who was paying for their mistake. BTW, it would have been darn near impossible to continue holding someone for a murder that was committed when they were working at their own bar in sight of customers.

EDIT: Removed erroneous time of death reference
 
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Amanda is paying for her own mistake. Patrick was arrested because of Amanda. And, she has never apologised to Patrick.
 
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