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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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When my cellphone is busy, the call gets forwarded to voicemail (again, this is an American cellphone). A more reasonable answer is dialing a non-functioning number (as when you redial too fast). Is there any plausible reason why Meredith's cellphone number might have become inoperative? Is there any possible significance that this incident occurred less than 20 minutes before the postal police showed up at the apartment?

With Meredith's UK phone (which was found switched on, unlike the Italian phone) Amanda's first call led to it being found by Lana's daughter. Presumably she then switched it off, which is why it was 'out of service' or went through to Voicemail for the second call.
 
I heard it was Amanda's cartwheels that destroyed them...

Nope, unfortunately it was the rank incompetence of Perugia's "crack" postal police. Yet another tick in the box for the professionalism and technical skills of the local plod.
 
I don't disagree with this: so where is it?



You are entitled to your personal opinion, of course. I will take that for what it is worth.




I do not see that you have supported this assertion but again you are entitled to your view. From my perspective those who argue that this conviction is unsafe only do so by excluding chunks of evidence, and/or introducing stuff which is made up....




Like that, for example.

<snip>



Well that would help, certainly.

A while ago I made a post at PMF trying to set out some of the reasons I reached the conclusion I did. It is partial because I did not have time to complete it and did not go back to it. For what little it is worth I will reproduce it here and perhaps you will do a similar exercise showing what leads you to your own conclusion.



If you will favour us with a similar exercise I would appreciate it if you would address both sides of each point: that has been sadly lacking in this thread and I think that bringing them together might move us forward a little bit

I don't see how you can possible allege that the points you reproduced have not been addressed "from both sides" - that just sounds strange and prejudiced to my mind.

As Kevin so correctly pointed out, it's not the job of the defence to "prove" an alternative scenario to point towards their clients' innocence. Rather, it's the job of the defence to take evidence offered by the prosecution and challenge its validity. And it's then the job of the judicial panel to look at the evidence as a whole, decide which parts of the prosecution's case have been proven to their satisfaction, and which parts might have been successfully challenged by the defence. And as a result of that, the judicial panel must ultimately decide whether the prosecution has met the burden of proof beyond any doubts that a reasonable person might have.

If the defence offers a plausible alternative explanation of any given piece of prosecution evidence, it's accepted in jurisprudence that the defence's explanation ought to be given credence over the prosecution's. Once again, it's crucial to note that the defence doesn't have to prove this alternative scenario - only to show that it is reasonable and possible.

In many of the numbered points you've reproduced, I would argue that there are either plausible alternative explanations for the evidence, or even that the prosecution evidence does not fit with the judicial panel's assessment of other evidence. As the main example of the latter point, the judicial panel seem to have concluded that the crime was not premeditated in any way - that the whole interaction with Meredith was spontaneous and unplanned. However, this in no way tallies with the prosecution's argument that AK and RS "deliberately" turned off their mobile phones by around 21.30. Why would they have made a conscious decision to do so, if they had no premeditation of any form of nefarious interaction with Meredith (whether a sex game or a brutal murder)? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. So why did AK and RS actually turn off their phones at that time (if indeed they did)?

Lastly, I'll state yet again that from my perspective it's not about being an AK "supporter" or anything like that. It's about looking at the evidence and wondering how that was sufficient to convict certain people of certain crimes.
 
Just reading through the bit in Raffaele's appeal about Quintavalle (kindly posted by Rose over on PMF). I didn't realize he'd done a Kokomani, and said he saw AK/RS at a time they couldn't have been there. He's supposed to have said he saw them together in his shop two weeks before the murder, and was even able to describe in detail what they were wearing. Problem is, that was a week before they actually met...

The motivations, however, seem to have ignored this fundamental fact: that in his statements Marco Quintavalle also affirmed having seen Amanda in his shop a couple of weeks before 2 November (transcript from the hearing of 21.03.2009, p.76), this time in the company of Raffaele. In this regard it has to be noted that this fact cannot in any way be true, since Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito had known each other - and this fact is certain and conclusive - just a week before the murder. Nonetheless, the memory of the witness is so sharp as to enable him to describe even the clothes worn on that occasion by the two young people: "[Raffaele] had light clothing, a light coloured shirt, beige, some similar colour, also light trousers. Then I noticed that strangely he had no glasses on that evening (...). She was wearing jeans, then had a pair of boots let's say Timberland make (...) she had a sweater (...) of wool or heavy cotton (...) red or something similar" (transcript of 21 March 2009, p.77).



I'm curious as to the impact the dismissal of Quintavalle and Curatola's testimonies might have, if it happens. Massei seems to have woven quite a bit around Quintavalle's testimony (i.e. it's supposed to prove Amanda was lying about sleeping till 10, that she went to clean up, and so on) but the defence do a pretty good job of discrediting it.

Wow, very nice. If you have that whole section translated send me a pm or post it please. I believe Amanda and Raffaele met at a concert on October 25th if I am remembering this correctly.
 
hard drives damaged

Thanks katy_did. I've been curious about the damaged computer(s) too.

Anybody have more on that? Was data accidently wiped or was there physical damage? Did they run them over or something - maybe on their way to arrest Lumumba?

Amanda's defense team offered to pay for the cost of Toshiba's trying to recover the information on her hard drive (pictures of her and Meredith as evidence that they got along), but the prosecution rebuffed their offer. Besides her drive, one of Raffaele's drives and a third drive were damaged. IIRC, it was possible to recover some information from them. Charlie may know more.
 
It now seems clear to me that Quintavalle is an untrustworthy and unreliable witness in a murder trial. I find it hard to understand how people are still fixing on those blinkers to defend him and his miraculously "accurate" testimony regarding timings, appearance and direction-of-travel which were, let's not forget, recounted by him to the police over a year after they occurred.

I fully believe that either RS/AK's team did a very poor job* of destroying Quintavalle's credibility on the stand, or that they did do a good job but that for one reason or another the judicial panel erred in its judgment on this particular issue. Either situation in eminently possible.

* I know that many people closer to the AK camp in particular don't want to countenance the possibility of defence lapses/incompetence. But I strongly believe that neither AK nor RS got the quality of defence representation that they should have done. Of course, the reasons for this may be many-fold; the choice of Dalla Vedova (commercial lawyer who happened to speak good English) and Ghirga (local criminal lawyer who appeared incompetent at times during the trial) for AK seems to be very poor. Similarly, while Bongiorno (for RS) might be technically a good criminal defence lawyer, I don't think she should have been retained as his lead attorney since I believe she simply couldn't dedicate the required time and effort to his defence.
 
We received a request to remove the [Moderated] status of this thread. On reviewing it I am going to lift the [Moderated] status but with a stern warning.

The topic of the thread is not each other, not the discussion itself and not about what any group who holds a view about this matter (for example the "Friends of Amanda Knox") is doing or saying, so no posts ascribing motivations to folk you believe to be in a different camp to yourself and so on.

If folk fall back into their old ways and again start to breach their Membership Agreement (especially Rule 0 & Rule 12) we will impose suspensions and will delete your posts.

So back to your discussion.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat
 
Minor point, but I think it's possible the PMF translation is a bit inaccurate there.


'Sfondare' apparently means 'break down', not 'kick down'. IIRC the crack in the door was quite high up (above the handle) which would suggest a shoulder rather than a kick (unless he was somehow kicking really high, of course!).


I have seen pictures of the door, how in the world could anyone say which cracks belong to RS?
 
In the case of the luminol traces, Stefanoni apparently held back exculpatory evidence, i.e., the lab performed a second test for blood, and it was negative in every instance..


Your only telling part of the story, if you know this, then you also know why she said the tests were negitive and also that they still could be blood.

I'm not concered with these results, the full explanations will come out with the report, the part that does concern me though, is why some are trying to mislead this information when the truth of it will be out shortly anyway.
 
But didn't at least one of the defence experts argue the wounds were consistent with an 'escalating' sexual attack? The prosecution saw the lack of obvious defence wounds and jumped to the conclusion that meant multiple attackers, but as London John says, that would be just as consistent with an attack that progressed gradually, in which the knife was used to force Meredith to comply rather than to seriously wound (initially). Obviously if someone holds a knife to your throat, fighting back isn't always the best option regardless of how many years of karate you've done (well, I would assume that's obvious but given the assumptions by the prosecution, who knows...!).

The attack could've gone on for quite a long time before the serious wounds were made, with the major blood stain patterns and so on only being made at the end. I tend to think this sort of escalating attack is more likely for a few reasons: first because it fits the timescale better, if we assume that Rudy was already in the house when Meredith got back. I think the series of phone calls starting at 9.58pm marked the end of the attack, probably Rudy trying to switch off the phone. That would mean the entire attack, from start to finish until Meredith died, lasted a bit less than an hour - reasonable for an attack which escalated and became more serious as it went along, but quite a long time for a deliberate sexual attack which happened quickly.

And second, an attack which progressed gradually would seem to me to fit better with an assault that wasn't pre-planned by Rudy. What you describe seems more like a deliberate assault, not one that initially started with, let's say, a struggle (perhaps Meredith tried to scream, and he rushed over to silence her) and then progressed to something else. Although having said that, I suppose once the attack started the decision (if we can call it anything as measured as that) to assault her may have been made quickly. Either scenario seems possible (a very quick attack where she didn't have time to fight back, or an escalating attack which progressed more slowly) but to me the second option fits a bit better. At any rate, I certainly don't think there's anything to rule out a single attacker, and it seems like the police/prosecution made far too many early assumptions in deciding there must've been multiple attackers.

It's not possible to know what kind of interaction may have preceded the attack, but once it started, it was swift. The room was not disturbed except in the corner where the knifing took place. The blood on the walls and in the bathroom was left there after the attack, rather than during the attack.

I don't know what to make of the phone calls. The esteemed Massei reasons that Meredith was amusing herself at 10 pm by autodialing her UK bank without the country code. I think she had already been murdered by that time, and her killer was responsible for this activity.
 
Your only telling part of the story, if you know this, then you also know why she said the tests were negitive and also that they still could be blood.

I'm not concered with these results, the full explanations will come out with the report, the part that does concern me though, is why some are trying to mislead this information when the truth of it will be out shortly anyway.

My only information on this subject comes from the Google translation of Amanda's appeal, as follows:

Dr. Stefanoni has shown also that in order to prove the nature of a substance is needed a specific diagnosis of blood. With reference to drops of blood sampled in the bath geneticist argued in terms below:

Ø <<some of these tracks, which were placed in the bathroom, the bathroom small, were for people and thus possibly biological, that
just looked like blood but to say we test laboratory could not say, though, here, and then for those unable imagine that it was blood>> (ditto).

However, both in the investigation report of Forensic Genetics and during hearings, the geneticist had ruled out carrying out investigations in order to establish nature of the tracks enhanced with luminol. The report was the only reported generic diagnosis of blood under positive luminescence (Report, p.. 14, 218 et seq.) Similarly, in responding to the claims of the parties geneticist confirmed the diagnosis itself solely under the general positive luminescence.

During the hearings, and in particular the submission of documentation on SAL States (work in progress) of the Scientific Police in July 2009, revealed for the first time that the same samples (positive luminol) were analyzed with the test to detect the tetramethylbenzidine presence of blood.

This test was negative for all tracks, as expressly provided in SAL tracks from 176 to 183. A negative test of all tracks is nullifying the technical scientific exclude the nature of substance from the blood.
 
It's not possible to know what kind of interaction may have preceded the attack, but once it started, it was swift. The room was not disturbed except in the corner where the knifing took place. The blood on the walls and in the bathroom was left there after the attack, rather than during the attack.

I don't know what to make of the phone calls. The esteemed Massei reasons that Meredith was amusing herself at 10 pm by autodialing her UK bank without the country code. I think she had already been murdered by that time, and her killer was responsible for this activity.


I believe he absorbed that image in his mind from the widely circulated photo showing Meredith lying on a bed in a green shirt and jeans, smiling as she checks her cell phone. How convenient for the judges to have so much of the case illustrated in the media for them.
 
<snip>
I fully believe that either RS/AK's team did a very poor job* of destroying Quintavalle's credibility on the stand, or that they did do a good job but that for one reason or another the judicial panel erred in its judgment on this particular issue. Either situation in eminently possible.

* I know that many people closer to the AK camp in particular don't want to countenance the possibility of defence lapses/incompetence. But I strongly believe that neither AK nor RS got the quality of defence representation that they should have done. Of course, the reasons for this may be many-fold; the choice of Dalla Vedova (commercial lawyer who happened to speak good English) and Ghirga (local criminal lawyer who appeared incompetent at times during the trial) for AK seems to be very poor. Similarly, while Bongiorno (for RS) might be technically a good criminal defence lawyer, I don't think she should have been retained as his lead attorney since I believe she simply couldn't dedicate the required time and effort to his defence.


I think there is also an assumed unspoken danger in defying the initial prosecution case too vigorously. Given the system of three trials per case, it may be more acceptable to challenge each prosection case the farther down the line one gets from the original prosecutor. This allows the original prosecutor to maintain his position as Alpha dog. Possibly it is accepted, again tacitly, that the final verdict has little to do with the original prosecution case.
 
It's not possible to know what kind of interaction may have preceded the attack, but once it started, it was swift. The room was not disturbed except in the corner where the knifing took place. The blood on the walls and in the bathroom was left there after the attack, rather than during the attack.

I don't know what to make of the phone calls. The esteemed Massei reasons that Meredith was amusing herself at 10 pm by autodialing her UK bank without the country code. I think she had already been murdered by that time, and her killer was responsible for this activity.

I'm presuming that the UK telephone banking number was stored in Meredith's UK phone's memory. And I further presume that the number was stored as a UK number (e.g. 0845 123456), rather than as an international number (e.g. +44 845 123456).

This would lead me to believe a number of things: 1) Meredith used her telephone banking service when she lived in the UK, but not while she was in Italy; 2) In any case, there would have been limited reasons for Meredith to want to access her UK bank account from Italy; 3) If Meredith was the one who was genuinely trying to phone her UK bank that night, it would almost certainly have been the first time that she had tried to do so from Italy - since otherwise she would already have known that she would need to preface the number stored in her phone memory with the UK country code.

All these things lead me towards the strong feeling that Meredith was not the person who pushed to dial that UK telephone banking number that night. To my mind, the number was mistakenly brought up from her phone memory, then dialled, by her assailant - either in the course of some sort of struggle, or while the assailant was fiddling with her phone (maybe trying to turn it off, as some have suggested). The problem for the prosecution, of course, is that it's fairly important to their case that Meredith herself pushed those buttons at that time while she was quietly on her own in the house - otherwise the whole time of attack/time of death needs to be altered to a time which makes AK/RS's involvement much less probable...
 
Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes
In the case of the luminol traces, Stefanoni apparently held back exculpatory evidence, i.e., the lab performed a second test for blood, and it was negative in every instance..
__________________________________________________________________________

Originally Posted by Sherlock Holmes
Your only telling part of the story, if you know this, then you also know why she said the tests were negitive and also that they still could be blood.

I'm not concered with these results, the full explanations will come out with the report, the part that does concern me though, is why some are trying to mislead this information when the truth of it will be out shortly anyway.
__________________________________________________________________________

Good day Mr. Holmes
When you wrote that Mr. Wilkes is only telling part of the story, it made me curious to hear more.
Do you have further information of this story that you write of, that you can share with me and the board, or must I wait for some unknown report to come out?
Thanks Sherlock,
RWVBWL
 
The most likely explanation is that he was in the large bathroom when she arrived home, and that is why he didn't flush.

The evidence also suggests that he sexually assaulted her after she was dead or unconscious.


I doubt it, this scenario sounds a bit 'synthetically' to me:

The first intention was to break in the house to rob valuables. He knows who the residents are, therefore his goal might have been to steel mainly computers and probably a few hundred Euros.
After he entered the house in Filomenas room he did not care about the computer, but throwed lots of clothings on the floor. And he did not even go into the rooms of Laura and Amanda.
Suddenly he suffers from violent abdominal pains (the bad kebap!)
While sitting on the toilet, Meredith comes home (not noticing the smashed window in full view) - Rudy recovers quickly from his stomach-aches,
forget all about steeling computers - and suddenly driven with wild lust and sexual greed - attacks and rapes Meredith (as you described it)in her room.



I do not want to be misunderstood: he is a very bad person, and deeply hurted and humiliated Meredith with his wild sexual driven greeds. And he shall suffer everey minute of his time in prison. I heard, he was beaten,
that's because rapists are very very low in the prisoners-ranking.
 
@ Mary H. - Meredith on her mobile phone -

I rather believe that she played one of those little games which are available on nearly every mobile phone
(I do this also when beeing in a boring waiting queue)
 
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I think there is also an assumed unspoken danger in defying the initial prosecution case too vigorously. Given the system of three trials per case, it may be more acceptable to challenge each prosection case the farther down the line one gets from the original prosecutor. This allows the original prosecutor to maintain his position as Alpha dog. Possibly it is accepted, again tacitly, that the final verdict has little to do with the original prosecution case.

Perhaps....but I still think that both AK and RS made very bad decisions in their choice of representation. Quite how a commercial lawyer with zero actual experience of criminal trials (Dalla Vedova) came to be AK's lead lawyer is well beyond my comprehension. And I believe that RS's father may well have insisted on hiring Bongiorno because he'd heard of her through her famous previous criminal defence work ("If she's good enough for the Prime Minister, she's good enough for my son"). He neglected to factor in that by this time Bongiorno already had a pretty-much full-time job as an Italian politician, and should not therefore have been capable of running a defence team in a high-profile murder trial. I further believe that she should have known this, and that therefore it's not to her credit that she chose to accept the case - I suspect she may have had something of a yearning for the limelight herself.......
 
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