Obama administration to sue Arizona.

[dtugg]

Guess not.

According to a Washington Post poll,

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/postpoll_060810.html?sid=ST2010061700014

58% of Americans support (42% strongly support) the Arizona law. Only 41% oppose the law. And given that this is a WP poll, the real percentages are probably even more supportive of the Arizona law than that. So once again, we find the Obama administration acting contrary to the views of Americans. See what I mean about Stuck On Stupid?

Posted on the first page of this thread.

Also.

 

[Uncayimmy]

and i didnt say a healthier mexican economy wouldnt benefit everyone, but the benefit comes at the expense of the US economy, which comes back to what i said before, why not just send them all checks in the mail?

I know you're being somewhat flip, but I think some people believe that would be a good idea. As I cited earlier, some $20B is wired into Mexico every year, which is more than they get in tourism. This is a disincentive for the Mexican government to improve things. Tourism requires infrastructure - water, police, roads, and so forth. You have to invest locally increase tourism dollars.

The wired money is a horrible disincentive to the Mexican government. First, it requires no infrastructure, which means no local investment. The money gets put into the hands of their poorest citizens, which means the government doesn't have to help the poor. The millions of people in the USA sending that money back don't have to be supported by the Mexican government. It also lowers their unemployment rate (it's actually much lower than in the USA). And the Mexican government has no incentive to police their side of the border.

The people who think illegal immigration is good for Mexico as a whole are just nuts. It's like giving food and shelter to a drug addict so he can continue his lifestyle at your expense. If that $20B dried up, maybe they would do something about the corruption problems and drug cartels to increase tourism. If the millions of illegals relied on their own government, maybe they would get their **** together and so something about it.

At this point, why should the Mexican government do anything to encourage these millions of people to return?

BTW, it's amusing that the discussion centers on Mexicans. There are literally millions of illegals from Asia and Europe. This is a problem as well. However, many of them, especially from Europe, are visa overstayers. Generally speaking they are more educated and better off financially, so if someone wants to argue about illegals being good for the economy, I would think of those people first.

an increase of enforcement of the law as it stands today would still enforce the law as it stands tomorrow if it were changed, the 2 concepts are entirely separate

Yep. Change the laws if they need to be changed. Otherwise, enforce them. We have a separation of powers for a reason. The executive branch should not be permitted to in effect repeal laws by refusing to enforce them. One cool part of the Arizona law is that it seems to codify that citizens can sue the government for not enforcing it. What a shame that needs to be done.

 

[Uncayimmy]

I would also like to comment on the elephant in the room that nobody is talking about it Much of this debate, IMHO, boils down to the fact that some of us, like myself, are considered "selfish" for saying in effect, "I don't want to share the wealth of this country with the poor of other countries illegally coming here for a better life."

There's a practical limit to the number of uneducated, unskilled people with no assets that this country can absorb. We have plenty of our own. If we needed more, we could cut even more funding from education and public assistance programs. The fact is that it dilutes the wealth of the country.

I'm in favor of limited, selective immigration. If people want to come here, then they can demonstrate that they will be contributing citizens by learning to read and write the language so they are potentially employable in many fields. Complete your education at home to demonstrate that investing in your education here is worthwhile. Bring skills that are useful. Anybody can push a broom or dig a ditch. Show me you can plumb, run wires, or write software.

The stronger this economy is, the more it can help other countries in practical ways. When this economy is strong, we can invest in the infrastructure of other countries. We can provide a market for your country to manufacture goods that we import. Don't come here, wire money out of the country, and pretend like you're doing me a favor by claiming that now your family can buy more goods imported from the USA. You could have just bought them here in the first place!

And when it comes to Mexico specifically, sorry, but you're just not in my Top Ten List of Countries in Dire Need of Help. Mexico has a per capita GDP of $14,000, which is well above the world average. There are countries in Asia, Africa, and in the former USSR where people have much greater needs than the people of Mexico. Yeh, I get that they want a better a life, but it's not like they are some poor, third world country with people dying from epidemics.

The biggest epidemic Mexico has right now is obesity. No kidding. They have one of the highest rates of soda consumption in the world. Their infant mortality rate is better than over 100 other countries. Over 150 countries have a lower life expectancy. About 150 countries have higher rates of AIDS. They spend a higher percentage of their GDP on education than the USA.

So, really, pardon me for not shedding tears over the plight of the poor Mexicans coming to the USA for a "better" life. If the USA is going to play Mommy and Daddy to the world, then Mexico is their freshman kid in college complaining that he can't get a good education at the local university because he has a four year old Dell laptop and tiny dorm room. After all, the other kids are in private colleges and have iPads in their nice, off-campus condos, right? Well, Mommy and Daddy should be more worried about their 10 year old, mentally troubled kid with no shoes, no paper, and no pencils wandering lost in the ghetto.

Mexico is standing on their own two feet. They have a trillion dollar economy, natural resources, and industry. It's time for them to stand up straight, buckle down, and get their **** together. Then they can start accepting immigrants from countries who speak the same or similar languages who have similar cultures.

 

[WildCat]

Do you have evidence that this actually occurs? Do you you have evidence the lower wages are "artificial"?

Yes. After that meatpacking plant in Iowa got busted for hiring illegal immigrants (and it also turned out they defrauded investors, but that's not relevant to this topic) they were forced to hire legal workers, resulting in them having to pay $2/hour in higher wages.

The only reason people hire illegal immigrants is because they can pay them less than market wage. There isn't a labor shortage in the US, indeed we pay tens of millions of people to sit at home unemployed.

It's a myth there are "jobs Americans won't do", there are only wages Americans won't work for.

Who said I was a "liberal"? Because I don't agree with you? Or are you saying you are, since you seem to be in favour of protectionist laws to keep wages elevated above market?

That's an odd definition of "protectionism", where did you get it?

 

[WildCat]

if mexico wants to keep them home why do they oppose a law that would send more of them home?

Mexico actively encourages its citizens to emigrate to the US illegally. They like to export their poorest citizens.

 

[WildCat]

I would also like to comment on the elephant in the room that nobody is talking about it Much of this debate, IMHO, boils down to the fact that some of us, like myself, are considered "selfish" for saying in effect, "I don't want to share the wealth of this country with the poor of other countries illegally coming here for a better life."

There's a practical limit to the number of uneducated, unskilled people with no assets that this country can absorb. We have plenty of our own. If we needed more, we could cut even more funding from education and public assistance programs. The fact is that it dilutes the wealth of the country.

I'm in favor of limited, selective immigration. If people want to come here, then they can demonstrate that they will be contributing citizens by learning to read and write the language so they are potentially employable in many fields. Complete your education at home to demonstrate that investing in your education here is worthwhile. Bring skills that are useful. Anybody can push a broom or dig a ditch. Show me you can plumb, run wires, or write software.

The stronger this economy is, the more it can help other countries in practical ways. When this economy is strong, we can invest in the infrastructure of other countries. We can provide a market for your country to manufacture goods that we import. Don't come here, wire money out of the country, and pretend like you're doing me a favor by claiming that now your family can buy more goods imported from the USA. You could have just bought them here in the first place!

And when it comes to Mexico specifically, sorry, but you're just not in my Top Ten List of Countries in Dire Need of Help. Mexico has a per capita GDP of $14,000, which is well above the world average. There are countries in Asia, Africa, and in the former USSR where people have much greater needs than the people of Mexico. Yeh, I get that they want a better a life, but it's not like they are some poor, third world country with people dying from epidemics.

The biggest epidemic Mexico has right now is obesity. No kidding. They have one of the highest rates of soda consumption in the world. Their infant mortality rate is better than over 100 other countries. Over 150 countries have a lower life expectancy. About 150 countries have higher rates of AIDS. They spend a higher percentage of their GDP on education than the USA.

So, really, pardon me for not shedding tears over the plight of the poor Mexicans coming to the USA for a "better" life. If the USA is going to play Mommy and Daddy to the world, then Mexico is their freshman kid in college complaining that he can't get a good education at the local university because he has a four year old Dell laptop and tiny dorm room. After all, the other kids are in private colleges and have iPads in their nice, off-campus condos, right? Well, Mommy and Daddy should be more worried about their 10 year old, mentally troubled kid with no shoes, no paper, and no pencils wandering lost in the ghetto.

Mexico is standing on their own two feet. They have a trillion dollar economy, natural resources, and industry. It's time for them to stand up straight, buckle down, and get their **** together. Then they can start accepting immigrants from countries who speak the same or similar languages who have similar cultures.

^This

I'll add that the only thing keeping Mexico from being a far more prosperous country is the rampant corruption woven into every level of Mexican government.

 

[ZirconBlue]

Actually, ZB's "claims" are an expression of doubt about UY's elaborate claims.

Yes. And dtugg's "fact" that these nebulous problems exist in the first place.

That some illegals get on the grid so to speak does not a net economic benefit make.

Despite Rhetoric, Illegal Immigration Provides Benefits to States

According to the Comptrollers’ office, state and local governments spent $1.16 billion to provide services like education, health care and safety, but raised an estimated $1.58 billion in tax revenues. Based on the data, the Texas taxpayer made a $424.7 million profit on its illegal immigrant population in 2006.

Fiscally, illegal immigrants contribute mostly to state and local coffers primarily through sales and property taxes, which are mostly unavoidable. A majority of illegal immigrants pay federal, state and local income tax as well - 50% to 75%, according the Congressional Budget office.

Uh, thousands of dead Americans?

What dead Americans are those?

im not sure i understand how this is possible, if they are paying into social security that would mean they have a social security number, which would only be issued to them if they had at the least a work visa, which would mean they arent illegal

They get fake IDs:

It is impossible to know exactly how many illegal immigrant workers pay taxes. But according to specialists, most of them do. Since 1986, when the Immigration Reform and Control Act set penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, most such workers have been forced to buy fake ID's to get a job.

<snip>

Starting in the late 1980's, the Social Security Administration received a flood of W-2 earnings reports with incorrect -- sometimes simply fictitious -- Social Security numbers. It stashed them in what it calls the ''earnings suspense file'' in the hope that someday it would figure out whom they belonged to.

The file has been mushrooming ever since: $189 billion worth of wages ended up recorded in the suspense file over the 1990's, two and a half times the amount of the 1980's.

In the current decade, the file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year, generating $6 billion to $7 billion in Social Security tax revenue and about $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes.

<snip>

''Our assumption is that about three-quarters of other-than-legal immigrants pay payroll taxes,'' said Stephen C. Goss, Social Security's chief actuary, using the agency's term for illegal immigration.

Yes. After that meatpacking plant in Iowa got busted for hiring illegal immigrants (and it also turned out they defrauded investors, but that's not relevant to this topic) they were forced to hire legal workers, resulting in them having to pay $2/hour in higher wages.

Yeah. I'm sure those workers in Postville, Iowa are real happy about that.

 

[Frank Newgent]

Mexico actively encourages its citizens to emigrate to the US illegally. They like to export their poorest citizens.

The Mexican corn-growing industry was undermined by NAFTA and attendant liberalized Mexican trade policies regarding cheap imported US and Canadian corn.

Back forty milpas couldn't compete. So what you say is partially true.

I must have known or talked to at least couple dozen people who'd come north or had kids who'd come north back in the 90's when I lived there.

You have to be smart and enterprising to be able to undergo such a move.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

They get fake IDs:

ah, 2 wrongs make a right. gotcha

 

[ZirconBlue]

ah, 2 wrongs make a right. gotcha

Nice strawman. Can you point to anywhere in this thread where I've talked about what's "right" or "wrong"? You asked a question and I answered it. You're welcome.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

Nice strawman. Can you point to anywhere in this thread where I've talked about what's "right" or "wrong"? You asked a question and I answered it. You're welcome.

Yes, illegals overconsume healthcare, and, possibly, K-12 education. But, a great many of them pay taxes, including Social Security and Medicare payroll taxes, that they will never receive benefits from.

so overconsuming healthcare and public education isnt wrong? and if it isnt why the "but" there?

 

[WildCat]

Despite Rhetoric, Illegal Immigration Provides Benefits to States

That doesn't take into account the effects of lower wages, and legal workers sitting home collecting government assistance because illegal immigrants have lowered the wage scale for unskilled labor. Nor does it take into account the higher taxes better paid workers would generate.

Yeah. I'm sure those workers in Postville, Iowa are real happy about that.

And what's happened since then?

The plant is reopened, and employing workers who make more than the illegal workers got paid.

The plant is scaled back, but that's mostly because of the multi-million dollar criminal fraud convictions against several managers, one of whom received a 27 year prison sentence. That part is unrelated to the hiring of illegal immigrants.

And I couldn't help but notice this part of your story:

A major obstacle in renting or selling properties, the landlords said, is the sometimes severe damage former plant workers left behind when they left town as quickly as they arrived last summer as Agriprocessors struggled to find employees after the raid.

Seibert estimates he spends an average of $3,000 repairing the homes. Some are destroyed beyond his financial ability to repair, so they waste away unoccupied.

I mean, who doesn't destroy a rental property before you vacate it?

 

[WildCat]

The Mexican corn-growing industry was undermined by NAFTA and attendant liberalized Mexican trade policies regarding cheap imported US and Canadian corn.

Back forty milpas couldn't compete. So what you say is partially true.

I must have known or talked to at least couple dozen people who'd come north or had kids who'd come north back in the 90's when I lived there.

You have to be smart and enterprising to be able to undergo such a move.

Agricultural subsidies are a seperate issue, and I have posted here repeatedly against ag subsidies here so don't say I'm hypocritical.

But even if there were no ag subsidies Mexico would still greatly underperform due to the rampant corruption there.

 

[ZirconBlue]

so overconsuming healthcare and public education isnt wrong? and if it isnt why the "but" there?

I don't care if it's "wrong". I'm trying to get someone, anyone, to actually demonstrate the "problems" that are supposedly being solved by this legislation. The problems need to be identified, and quantified, before any proposed "solution" can be evaluated (let alone passed into law). If (and I know that it's a big "if") it turns out that illegal immigrants actually contribute more than they consume, then this legislation may actually cause more harm than good.

Wildcat has brought up depressed wages. I don't find this an extraordinary claim, in that it fits with conventional economic theory. But, I'd still like to see some data to verify that reality conforms to theory, and, more importantly, to quantify the extent of the effect. It may be small enough to have little overall impact in the market. It may be large, but offset by the benefits of having cheaper goods and services. Either way, those card should be on the table before laws are passed to deal with them.

 

[ZirconBlue]

That doesn't take into account the effects of lower wages, and legal workers sitting home collecting government assistance because illegal immigrants have lowered the wage scale for unskilled labor. Nor does it take into account the higher taxes better paid workers would generate.

It doesn't take into account Global Warming due to all the hot air generated by politicians either. If you've got some better data, I'd love to see it.

And what's happened since then?

I don't know. That's the newest information I was able to find on the economy of Postville, Iowa. All my searches got swamped by news from back when the raids occured, or the recent conviction news. I suspect that earning $2/hour more doesn't really make up for losing a lot of residents and businesses in their community, but I'd be happy to discover otherwise.

I mean, who doesn't destroy a rental property before you vacate it?

I never did, but I was always trying to get my deposit back. . .

 

[Uncayimmy]

That doesn't take into account the effects of lower wages, and legal workers sitting home collecting government assistance because illegal immigrants have lowered the wage scale for unskilled labor. Nor does it take into account the higher taxes better paid workers would generate.

It also doesn't take into account the billions of dollars wired out of local economies into Mexico. It doesn't take into account the high percentage (already cited) of illegals without health and auto insurance.

Like you said, want to create 5 million jobs? Get rid of a bunch of illegals. Last I saw the unemployment rate in Mexico is lower than in the USA.

 

[WildCat]

It doesn't take into account Global Warming due to all the hot air generated by politicians either.

Is that a relevant metric?

If you've got some better data, I'd love to see it.

Don't you think that data on the issues I mentioned would offer a more complete picture?

I don't know. That's the newest information I was able to find on the economy of Postville, Iowa.

No kidding! Now that it's resolved the illegal immigration activists don't write stories about it anymore.

All my searches got swamped by news from back when the raids occured, or the recent conviction news. I suspect that earning $2/hour more doesn't really make up for losing a lot of residents and businesses in their community, but I'd be happy to discover otherwise.

Where do you think the new workers live? Do they commute in from some far-away land every morning?

 

[Frank Newgent]

It also doesn't take into account the billions of dollars wired out of local economies into Mexico. It doesn't take into account the high percentage (already cited) of illegals without health and auto insurance.

Like you said, want to create 5 million jobs? Get rid of a bunch of illegals. Last I saw the unemployment rate in Mexico is lower than in the USA.

You really believe that?

 

[defaultdotxbe]

I don't care if it's "wrong". I'm trying to get someone, anyone, to actually demonstrate the "problems" that are supposedly being solved by this legislation. The problems need to be identified, and quantified, before any proposed "solution" can be evaluated (let alone passed into law). If (and I know that it's a big "if") it turns out that illegal immigrants actually contribute more than they consume, then this legislation may actually cause more harm than good.

immigration laws are not being enforced, the arizona legislation essentially forces ICE to enforce the laws they have a duty to enforce

as i said previously, if laws going unenforced are not a problem, why enforce any law?

 

[ZirconBlue]

Don't you think that data on the issues I mentioned would offer a more complete picture?

Sure. Do you have that data?

Where do you think the new workers live? Do they commute in from some far-away land every morning?

I don't know. Absent any other information, I assume they're among the people who already lived there, who are now unemployed, due to having their local economy trashed.

immigration laws are not being enforced

Evidence? Murder happens on a regular basis in the US. Do you assume that laws against murder are not being enforced?