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Obama administration to sue Arizona.

It's bad for the USA because that means less money in the being spent here. Obviously it is good for Mexico because more money for them. That was more original point.
Mexico doesn't buy stuff from the USA?

Wouldn't a healthier Mexican economy be good for the USA? Wouldn't having more jobs at home available reduce the incentive to come here?

I didn't say they did, I said it wouldn't be surprising if they did.
Seems a pretty big leap from "some officials" to "the government" to be so unsurprised, isn't it?

Some officials certainly did.
Did that include the President? A controlling number of congressmen? Or was that a "no" in there?
 
An honest question to the lawyers here.

If the feds do sue and happen to lose does that open the door for every state to pass their own immigration laws within the parameters of the federal law?
 
Mexico doesn't buy stuff from the USA?

Wouldn't a healthier Mexican economy be good for the USA? Wouldn't having more jobs at home available reduce the incentive to come here?

For the sake of the argument, I will concede this point. Either way, Mexico wants their poor people to come to the US, illegally or not because it will boost their economy. So they will obviously oppose this bill. That was my point.

Seems a pretty big leap from "some officials" to "the government" to be so unsurprised, isn't it?

Why would I be unsurprised? Corruption is rampant in Mexico. If it extends all the way up to Calderon, whoopty do.

Did that include the President? A controlling number of congressmen? Or was that a "no" in there?

Because it didn't happen in the US it means it doesn't/won't happen in Mexico?
 
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An honest question to the lawyers here.

If the feds do sue and happen to lose does that open the door for every state to pass their own immigration laws within the parameters of the federal law?

I am not a lawyer, but I think it is pretty self evident that they could if they wanted to.
 
"Some of the people who are supposed to be pursuing him are apparently on his payroll" is not the same thing as (and a far cry from) "the Mexican government works for [the Sinaloa cartel]", is it?

Did the US government "work for" Capone?
I don't know about the ruling party, but there are well-documented instances of Mexican military escorting drug smugglers across the border into the US. Here's an MSNBC story on it:

 
An honest question to the lawyers here.

If the feds do sue and happen to lose does that open the door for every state to pass their own immigration laws within the parameters of the federal law?
Why not? They all did it with drug laws.
 
"Doubt" is not evidence.
Hey, if you think artificially (because laws are being broken) lowering wages so more people rely on government assistance might be good for the economy, so be it. Not the topic of this thread, but I always thought liberals were for higher wages and benefits?
 
Hey, if you think artificially (because laws are being broken) lowering wages so more people rely on government assistance might be good for the economy, so be it.
Do you have evidence that this actually occurs? Do you you have evidence the lower wages are "artificial"?

Not the topic of this thread, but I always thought liberals were for higher wages and benefits?
Who said I was a "liberal"? Because I don't agree with you? Or are you saying you are, since you seem to be in favour of protectionist laws to keep wages elevated above market?
 
I don't want to argue any such thing. (At least not right now.) It just seems that people are jumping to correct "problems" that don't necessarily need correction. Yes, illegals overconsume healthcare, and, possibly, K-12 education. But, a great many of them pay taxes, including Social Security and Medicare payroll taxes, that they will never receive benefits from. If, indeed, they provide a net economic benefit, then it seems pretty stupid to decide to get tough on them in the middle of a massive recession.

As I explained in my post, Arizona already started this process before the recession started. Better to finish it now because there may not be another chance. If the economy here needs to rebuild, it's better not to rebuild it dependent on illegal labor only to take it away later.

That some illegals get on the grid so to speak does not a net economic benefit make.
 
Can you elaborate on these "problems"? I'm hearing a lot reports lately that seem to indicate that even illegal immigration is a net benefit, economically.

Uh, thousands of dead Americans?

DD (just a guess) WW
 
And what does that mean, exactly?
Humans commit crimes. Substances don't.
Humans can walk, talk and think. Substances don't.

Seems to me that such a fact should sway considerations of enfocement to leniency and mercy, not zero-tolerance and inflexibility. After all, it's a much different matter to smash a barrel of bathtub gin with an axe handle than it is the head of a Guatemalan. Well, it is for some people, anyway.
Irrelevant to the analogy which you have yet to support.

You went into a great deal of assertion, not a lot of evidence.
There is no denying that the things I describe are true. The only dispute is the degree to which it has an effect. According to this source in 2005 over $20,000,000,000 was wired to Mexico. As best as I can that's a bit more than Mexico gets from tourism. This is money pumped out of local economies and into foreign economies. How can that be a good thing?
 
If that were true, then why support a law that calls for increased enforcement of a policy that you already recognise is bad?
i didnt say the policy was bad, i just said i would support a particular change in that policy
 
Humans commit crimes. Substances don't.
Humans can walk, talk and think. Substances don't.
Are you claiming that Prohibition was passed in order to change the behaviour of alcohol?

There is no denying that the things I describe are true.
Sure there is. Without evidence, it's all just assertion.

According to this source in 2005 over $20,000,000,000 was wired to Mexico.
Now it is up to you to show that that in itself has a detrimental effect on "local economies".

As best as I can that's a bit more than Mexico gets from tourism. This is money pumped out of local economies and into foreign economies. How can that be a good thing?
"Wouldn't dollars flowing south help Mexico and other American countries to prosper, raising their standard of living, giving them money to spend on US products, and thereby lowering the incentive to for their people come here in the first place? Isn't that a free market in action?"

Like it or not, this is becoming a global economy. Jingoism and economic isolationism isn't a viable option anymore.
 
I don't want to argue any such thing. (At least not right now.) It just seems that people are jumping to correct "problems" that don't necessarily need correction. Yes, illegals overconsume healthcare, and, possibly, K-12 education. But, a great many of them pay taxes, including Social Security and Medicare payroll taxes, that they will never receive benefits from. If, indeed, they provide a net economic benefit, then it seems pretty stupid to decide to get tough on them in the middle of a massive recession.
im not sure i understand how this is possible, if they are paying into social security that would mean they have a social security number, which would only be issued to them if they had at the least a work visa, which would mean they arent illegal

only other option i can think of would be an expired visa, but this would still mean they came here legally and just didnt leave

third option would be using someone elses SSN, which is tantamount to identity theft


It is good for poor Mexicans. It seems logical that it would be good in that way for "Mexico". Do you have any reason that that is a bad thing?
mass emigration of workers is never a good thing for a country, unless of course they are sending vast quantities of money back home

Why change a policy that doesn't have problems? If the policy does have problems, where is the benefit of a law that calls for increased enforcement of it?
is any policy perfect? why enforce any laws if they arent perfect?
 
mass emigration of workers is never a good thing for a country, unless of course they are sending vast quantities of money back home
That explains why Mexico might want to keep them home, not why we wouldn't want them here. Unless you can explain why improvments to Mexico's economy is not good for us. Either they are helping Mexico's economy, which reduces the disparity between us and thereby decreases the incentive to emigrate to the US, or they add to the GNP of the US. Possibly both. Either way, it looks like a win for us.

is any policy perfect? why enforce any laws if they arent perfect?
We're not talking about "any policy" or "perfect" policies. We are talking about this policy, which you said you'd like to see changed, yet also say you support a law that calls for increased enforcment of the very same policy as it exist now. How does that work?
 
Are you claiming that Prohibition was passed in order to change the behaviour of alcohol?
Where are you going with this? You've made one vague statement to say that prohibition is like immigration law, and it seems like you don't even understand what prohibition was. It prohibited the sale, transportation for sale, and creation for sale of alcohol. People could still drink it. People could still make it. Businesses could still sell the makings - grape growers in California dramatically increased production and sold blocks of grapes warning people not to put it in water and leave it stand for a few weeks because then it would turn into wine.

Immigration law is designed to prevent people from entering this country without following the proper procedures. The government could destroy illegal alcohol, but it can't destroy illegal aliens. Alcohol could be hidden in warehouses, sheds, and car trunks. If violators saw the police coming, they could destroy the evidence. Illegals have to live and work. They can't kill themselves to avoid prosecution.

I really have no desire to go down this road any further. I believe your analogy fails, but even if it didn't, it wouldn't matter to me. Why? Because the level of enforcement is nowhere near the level I think it should be. When states begin assisting in enforcing the law, like with ICE agents at the local level, and when the Border Patrol has a larger staff and better tools (like better fencing), then we can argue about whether the policy is a failure or not.


Sure there is. Without evidence, it's all just assertion.
You can say that all you want, but you're still wrong. I have provided evidence of money moving out of the country. The property crime rates I cited are factual. The uninsured rates for illegals are factual. The education programs for illegals are factual. And I have personally witnessed illegals living in the ways I describe.

Please save your hand waving for somebody else.

Now it is up to you to show that that in itself has a detrimental effect on "local economies".
It's basic economics. There's a reason that tourism is so valuable - it brings money into the local economy. Every dollar wired out of the area is a dollar not spent locally.

"Wouldn't dollars flowing south help Mexico and other American countries to prosper, raising their standard of living, giving them money to spend on US products, and thereby lowering the incentive to for their people come here in the first place? Isn't that a free market in action?"
LOL. Nope. You're welcome to show some evidence.

Like it or not, this is becoming a global economy. Jingoism and economic isolationism isn't a viable option anymore.
A global economy does not mean that local economies cease to exist. What global economy means is that what happens in one country affects other countries just like what happens in one state/city has always affected other states/cities.

If you want to argue about whether immigration policy is sound or not, start another thread. This thread is about enforcing the current immigration laws. If you think the USA would be better off with new laws, explain why and argue for the laws to be changed. Personally, I think you, like a lot of other people, only bring up this argument because for emotional reasons you don't like the thought of those poor illegals being sent back to Mexico.

Funny thing, I don't see anybody arguing that we should be sending airplanes to Europe and Africa to fly back their uneducated, unskilled but hardworking citizens. I mean, if it's such a good policy, then let's let the whole world benefit. Why treat Mexicans as special? Why not make quotas for each country?
 
That explains why Mexico might want to keep them home, not why we wouldn't want them here. Unless you can explain why improvments to Mexico's economy is not good for us. Either they are helping Mexico's economy, which reduces the disparity between us and thereby decreases the incentive to emigrate to the US, or they add to the GNP of the US. Possibly both. Either way, it looks like a win for us.
if mexico wants to keep them home why do they oppose a law that would send more of them home?

and i didnt say a healthier mexican economy wouldnt benefit everyone, but the benefit comes at the expense of the US economy, which comes back to what i said before, why not just send them all checks in the mail?

We're not talking about "any policy" or "perfect" policies. We are talking about this policy, which you said you'd like to see changed, yet also say you support a law that calls for increased enforcment of the very same policy as it exist now. How does that work?
an increase of enforcement of the law as it stands today would still enforce the law as it stands tomorrow if it were changed, the 2 concepts are entirely separate


last year 2 laws were passed in illinois regarding window tints in cars, the first provided a route to fine and otherwise penalize people who installed illegal tints, effectively increasing the enforcement of tint laws

the second, sponsored by the same senator, loosened tint laws to allow darker tints on front windows, a lot of people struggled to grasp the seemingly contradictory nature of the 2 laws, when there is functionally no contradiction, a fact shown when they both went into force


so if you are going to say a law should not be enforced because it isnt perfect why cant that logic that apply to all laws?
 
A number of people have referenced an ABC/Washington Post poll which found that 58% of Americans polled supported the Arizona law.

Can someone please give me a link to the poll? Not to news reports about the poll, but to the poll itself -- the wording of the question(s) asked?

Guess not.
 

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