To all those who said a virtual fence is the answer …

[Wildy]

Nah, the government just needs to build a REAL fence.

Then we won't have to depend so much on the whims of Federal and State governments to keep things to a manageable and tolerable level.

So you don't like the fact that the government doesn't regulate the workforce enough when it comes to illegal immigrants, but you don't want them to actually regulate the workforce?

A fence won't solve the problem since it doesn't take away the incentives to immigrate illegally. But I get the feeling that you don't want to solve the problem, you just want a stopgap that makes it look like the government is doing something about illegal immigration.

 

[BeAChooser]

In my opinion trying to get a handle on immigration problems with fences is like trying to hermetically seal your house with screen doors. It won't work

I'd say your "opinion" isn't worth much when I can offer real sources (and actual examples of fences working) that prove you are wrong.

 

[BeAChooser]

A fence won't solve the problem since it doesn't take away the incentives to immigrate illegally.

You can have all the incentive in the world but a well designed fence will keep you out. As the Israeli wall has proven against folks willing to martyr themselves to kill Israelis. Incentive doesn't get any better than all those promised virgins in paradise.

But I get the feeling that you don't want to solve the problem

No, clearly you are the one who doesn't want to solve the problem.

 

[T.A.M.]

Beachooser:

That was an awefully long winded reply to me, given i have not expressed my solution to the border problem, only that i think a fence will not work. Likely, in typical fashion you are assuming my thoughts and pov based on that.

1. Some of my problem with the wall is the message it sends. Go back a couple of decades and you have the collapse of the berlin wall...what a wonderful moment...and now you have americans wanting to build their own to keep people out.

2. I am not saying you should just have people flowing freely and illegally iinto your country, i am just saying i Do not think a wall is the right answer.

3. A wall might work in reducing the problem...for a while, but where there is a will there is a way, and they have the will.

IMO a wall sends the wrong message to everyone, but then again, from this forum and my other contacts with americans i have learned that a subset of americans could give a flying **** about what the rest of the world thinks.

TAM

 

[Frank Newgent]

A fence won't solve the problem since it doesn't take away the incentives to immigrate illegally.

You can have all the incentive in the world but a well designed fence will keep you out.

Seems likely a well-designed fence will, however, up profit incentives via an increase in smuggling prices.

 

[kevinquinnyo]

Seems likely a well-designed fence will, however, up profit incentives via an increase in smuggling prices.

Well, it would increase the price of border crossing, because it increases the cost of human smuggling. yes.

The coyotes already charge thousands of dollars for assistance in crossing.

They also accept getting raped as a form of payment.

 

[dtugg]

I don't know that a wall is the correct solution but these Berlin Wall comparisons are just ridiculous. The Berlin Wall was to keep people from leaving, this fence would be to keep people from ILLEGALLY coming in. Apples and oranges.

 

[Random]

Frankly, I find all these calls for a border fence to be racist. Not because of the intention of keeping out foreigners or illegal workers, but because of the tacit assumtion that the average Mexican is not smart enough to get to the other side of the fence.

 

[T.A.M.]

I don't know that a wall is the correct solution but these Berlin Wall comparisons are just ridiculous. The Berlin Wall was to keep people from leaving, this fence would be to keep people from ILLEGALLY coming in. Apples and oranges.

not really. The concept of a wall to keep people from getting from one location to another is one issue. If you are talking about motivation (ie leaving germany versus getting into america) then that is a different issue. One could have a serious debate about which might have bigger motivation or desperation behind it, and hence push people farther.

The merits of the fence, or the lack of, as a deterrent are the same regardless of which direction the people are going...

TAM

 

[Rikeln]

Why build a fence at all?

Why not just ease up and let people flow into the country?

The more, the merrier

There must be some limit as to how many we can sustain though.

 

[Wildy]

No, clearly you are the one who doesn't want to solve the problem.

My country already has a pretty good solution to the problem. It's called being an island. Perhaps the US should try it?

Although it still hasn't stopped illegal immigration, just the way they get into the country.

 

[dtugg]

I honestly cannot understand how somebody could think that a wall built by an oppressive country to keep people from leaving is equivalent to a free country building one to keep people from illegally coming in. But you're right about one thing TAM, what the rest of the world would think about this does not factor in at all to whether I think it is a good idea.

 

[marplots]

Quote from the plaque on "Mother of Exiles":
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

When the choice is noble and hard verses ignoble and easy, think long and hard.

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

That was so 18th century. (19th, actually.)

 

[MikeMangum]

In my opinion trying to get a handle on immigration problems with fences is like trying to hermetically seal your house with screen doors. It won't work and at a certain point you might want to step back and ask yourself, "why am I trying to hermetically seal my house?"

What a great analogy! Let's compare illegal immigrants to germs.

That was your point, right?

 

[BeAChooser]

1. Some of my problem with the wall is the message it sends. Go back a couple of decades and you have the collapse of the berlin wall

LOL! So you think this wall would be like the berlin wall? Don't you folks ever listen to yourselves?

and now you have americans wanting to build their own to keep people out.

Keep out ILLEGAL immigrants. We're not against legal immigration. Get in line. And by the way, we wouldn't need to build a wall if our government would just do what every other government in the world seems to do with illegals. Catch them and kick them out. In fact, why don't we just pass laws that are identical with Mexico in this regard. Would you be against that?

2. I am not saying you should just have people flowing freely and illegally iinto your country

Sure you are, because you aren't offering any other workable solution. You're apparently content with the status quo.

i am just saying i Do not think a wall is the right answer.

You can *think* it all you want, but you haven't proven that it's not.

3. A wall might work in reducing the problem...for a while, but where there is a will there is a way, and they have the will.

Nonsense. You can have all the incentive in the world but physics is physics. And unlike any other solution you might suggest, a wall can actually be tested.

 

[BeAChooser]

Frankly, I find all these calls for a border fence to be racist.

Tell us, Random, if we passed and enforced laws identical to those in Mexico regarding illegal immigration, would we be racist?

Not because of the intention of keeping out foreigners or illegal workers, but because of the tacit assumtion that the average Mexican is not smart enough to get to the other side of the fence.

Physics is physics. And I tell you what ... just to defuse you "racism" argument, we'll let *smart* caucasians(?) like you and T.A.M. test the wall design. Let's see if you can get past such a system without getting caught.

No, personally, I think the real racists here are those content to let thousands of illegal immigrants (just because they are Mexican) be killed, raped and kidnapped each year rather than stop it by building a fence/wall system.

 

[BeAChooser]

My country already has a pretty good solution to the problem. It's called being an island. Perhaps the US should try it?

That's exactly what a fence is meant to do. Force any potential illegal immigrants from the south to come in from the sea or by plane. Just like in your country.

Although it still hasn't stopped illegal immigration

And the fence/wall solution isn't meant to completely stop it either. Just reduce it to a more manageable level. We'd be happy if it cut it by just 90%. Or better yet, just reduce our illegal immigration problem to something comparable to Australia's.

 

[BeAChooser]

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

And there will no doubt be doors in that fence/wall.

 

[BeAChooser]

That was your point, right?

Actually, he just missed the fact that a house needs walls. It's the doors you are supposed to enter through.