Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Charlie Wilkes]

I had seen you advance this theory, London John. It gives a possible motivation for Rudy to stage a break-in and that is the first step, one that you have done a good job with, in my opinion. The next step is fitting that theory with the evidence. When did he stage the break in and how does that fit with the footprints, etc?

I don't think Guede staged anything. If he had been operating at that level, he would have avoided leaving so much evidence.

What evidence is there, really, that the break-in was staged? We have verbal testimony about glass on top of clothing, which photos and video do not support. It is mere conjecture. The fact is that if someone was going to break into that cottage, they had two viable options - the balcony and Filomena's window. All the other windows within reach had iron grates. Nobody who has been to the place thinks it would be much of a feat for a man in good physical condition to get through that window. Moreover, a glass shard from the window was found in Meredith's room:

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/glass_shard.jpg

Nobody talks about it much, but there it is.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

I don't think Guede staged anything. If he had been operating at that level, he would have avoided leaving so much evidence.

What evidence is there, really, that the break-in was staged? We have verbal testimony about glass on top of clothing, which photos and video do not support. It is mere conjecture. The fact is that if someone was going to break into that cottage, they had two viable options - the balcony and Filomena's window. All the other windows within reach had iron grates. Nobody who has been to the place thinks it would be much of a feat for a man in good physical condition to get through that window. Moreover, a glass shard from the window was found in Meredith's room:

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/glass_shard.jpg

Nobody talks about it much, but there it is.

There is plenty of evidence that this was a staged break-in - of the more notable reasons to believe this: There is a lack of glass in the garden, there is no disturbance of the glass on the sill - nowhere that someone brushed the glass aside to keep from cutting him/herself. There are no marks from Rudy's shoes on the wall outside the window, nor is there dirt from the garden inside the room.
the room was not really rifled through, nor was anything stolen from the room. There is also Filomena's testimony that she had pulled the shutters closed (not latched, but wedged).

No one on Amanda's team wants to discuss all this, but there it is.

 

[TellyKNeasuss]

deleted.

 

[Malkmus]

Unless you can provide some evidence to support your contention that murderers never fiddle with their computers the night after committing a murder, this qualifies as a belief (and I would argue an Argument from Incredulity). I happen to believe otherwise. I make no assumption that criminals would never act in a manner that we, as non-criminals, would consider to be non-productive.

Telly, I think you're missing the overall point here, and why I posted what I did in the first place. Certain people have latched onto the computer activity for two reasons:
1. They think it's incriminating because Raf said he didn't get up until around 10:30-11, and therefore he was hiding the fact that he was up earlier.
2. The act of listening to music must have been to calm himself since he had just murdered someone.

The first notion is being disputed, as Rose has pointed out, by the defense in the upcoming appeal. It seems that the police may have been wrong about the computer activity, and that the programs were activated prior to 5:30am.

The second notion is more or less what I was debating, and it's completely subjective on either side of the argument. I could just as easily ask you to provide evidence that murders sometimes listen to music hours after they've killed someone, keeping in mind that they still have unfinished business to attend to.

Addressing some other points:
1) How often do criminals anticipate every scenario? Is it not possible that it never occurred to them that someone might call the postal police after spotting a couple of cellphones? AK came home, according to her story, to find an open door, blood splattered in the bathroom, and human waste in the toilet. Yet she did not find that of any concern. That is, until the postal police showed up. Then, she was concerned.

This idea is only plausible if Amanda was the only resident of the cottage. They didn't have to worry about cellphones being discovered. If they knew Meredith was dead in that room, they would have also had to worry about friends of Meredith coming over to see if she was home and the other roommates returning home and discovering oddities, and people just generally wondering why she wasn't answering her phone. They had a very finite amount of time to take care of business if they murdered Meredith.

2) Is it possible that RS didn't expect to get back to sleep?

Entirely possible. Which is why I believe if he had murdered Meredith that his time would have been spent talking to Amanda about a plan of some sort, or cleaning at the cottage. But again, I have to reiterate, my point in all this is not that he couldn't possibly have been making a playlist, just that it doesn't prove evidence of guilt. This applies to your other points as well. People have speculated why the playlist fiasco is incriminating, and I've offered my personal point-of-view of why it is not.

So you're claiming the report about the receipt isn't true? Whatever. The grocer testified that Amanda shopped for cleaning supplies. I'm sure that it was just by coincidence it happened to be the morning after the murder. And she was in such a hurry that she waiting outside when the store opened. This despite her claim that she had slept until 10. I'm sure that it was also just a coincidence that she forgot about this. Just like it was a coincidence that RS had forgotten that he hadn't used his computer after 9:00 the previous night.

The bleach/store visit/witness statement has already been discussed here to death. I'm not going to re-open that can of worms until we have more information on it. It is all highly contestable is all I'll say on that.

I said RF, not AK, might have not known where AK had the key.

This is completely illogical. Sorry, but it is. You can't say that Raf decided to stay at the cottage and make an iTunes playlist instead of cleaning the cottage because he didn't know where Amanda had the key. She was with him. Therefore the key was with them. If she was sleeping, I can imagine waking her up to clean a murder scene, that once discovered would decide their fate for the rest of their lives, would be plenty reason to wake her up. Also, the alleged clean-up and staged break-in would have been incredibly time-consuming, which is one of two reasons why I believe if they committed the crime they would have been up all night.

 

[katy_did]

There is plenty of evidence that this was a staged break-in - of the more notable reasons to believe this: There is a lack of glass in the garden, there is no disturbance of the glass on the sill - nowhere that someone brushed the glass aside to keep from cutting him/herself. There are no marks from Rudy's shoes on the wall outside the window, nor is there dirt from the garden inside the room.
the room was not really rifled through, nor was anything stolen from the room. There is also Filomena's testimony that she had pulled the shutters closed (not latched, but wedged).

No one on Amanda's team wants to discuss all this, but there it is.

I could never figure out why they thought there'd be marks from Rudy's shoes on the wall. What, do they think he walked up it like Spiderman? If he hauled himself up using his upper body, probably only the toes of his shoes would've touched the wall.

I'm also very curious as to when the police officer who apparently noticed these things first mentioned or was asked about them. Are they in his initial report (and if so, why no photos, if these things were so suspicious)? Or was he just asked some time later whether he happened to notice glass on the floor/marks on the walls?

It's very convenient that there are no photographs or footage of any of the evidence which convinced Massei the break-in was staged, so we're basically forced to take the police's word for it. And that the only photograph/footage that exists actually contradicts what the eye-witness said... (in Filomena's case).

 

[BobTheDonkey]

I could never figure out why they thought there'd be marks from Rudy's shoes on the wall. What, do they think he walked up it like Spiderman? If he hauled himself up using his upper body, probably only the toes of his shoes would've touched the wall.

I'm also very curious as to when the police officer who apparently noticed these things first mentioned or was asked about them. Are they in his initial report (and if so, why no photos, if these things were so suspicious)? Or was he just asked some time later whether he happened to notice glass on the floor/marks on the walls?

It's very convenient that there are no photographs or footage of any of the evidence which convinced Massei the break-in was staged, so we're basically forced to take the police's word for it. And that the only photograph/footage that exists actually contradicts what the eye-witness said... (in Filomena's case).

So Rudy pulled himself up and into the room through the window sill without using his feet nor disturbing the glass on the window sill...

Again, Amanda's proponents ignore that which does not fit into their preferred scenario.

No one pulled themselves through that window the night of the murder. No one.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I could never figure out why they thought there'd be marks from Rudy's shoes on the wall. What, do they think he walked up it like Spiderman? If he hauled himself up using his upper body, probably only the toes of his shoes would've touched the wall.

I'm also very curious as to when the police officer who apparently noticed these things first mentioned or was asked about them. Are they in his initial report (and if so, why no photos, if these things were so suspicious)? Or was he just asked some time later whether he happened to notice glass on the floor/marks on the walls?

It's very convenient that there are no photographs or footage of any of the evidence which convinced Massei the break-in was staged, so we're basically forced to take the police's word for it. And that the only photograph/footage that exists actually contradicts what the eye-witness said... (in Filomena's case).

Nothing found at the cottage contradicts the premise that Guede broke the window and climbed through it.

There was a US case involving a man by the name of David Dowaliby whose stepdaughter was abducted and murdered by an intruder who climbed through a basement window. Police had no suspects, so they charged Dowaliby and his wife despite a complete lack of evidence. The judge directed a not guilty verdict against the wife, but David Dowaliby was convicted. During the trial, the prosecution made much of the claim that no one could have climbed through the window without knocking over items beneath it. Dowaliby commissioned a video shot that showed how easy it was to do that which the prosecution claimed was impossible, but his attorney lost it. (It was rediscovered after the trial.)

A police witness in the Dowaliby case also claimed there was dust on the window ledge, which would not have been there if someone had climbed through it. But, as in this case, crime scene photos failed to support the testimony.

 

[Malkmus]

Moreover, a glass shard from the window was found in Meredith's room:

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/glass_shard.jpg

Nobody talks about it much, but there it is.

Very interesting if that shard is from the window. Is there any way to be certain, Charlie? I know that it has been claimed before that the glass in Meredith's room was from a broken liquor bottle.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

There is plenty of evidence that this was a staged break-in - of the more notable reasons to believe this: There is a lack of glass in the garden, there is no disturbance of the glass on the sill - nowhere that someone brushed the glass aside to keep from cutting him/herself. There are no marks from Rudy's shoes on the wall outside the window, nor is there dirt from the garden inside the room.
the room was not really rifled through, nor was anything stolen from the room. There is also Filomena's testimony that she had pulled the shutters closed (not latched, but wedged).

No one on Amanda's team wants to discuss all this, but there it is.

Wow, that was quick and impressive and you even left some stuff out like Filomena said on the stand, her room wasn't messy when she left, and why would she lie over this, did she secretly hate Amanda????

 

[Mary_H]

I randomly came upon this article in Corriere della Sera from 5 November, the day Amanda was interrogated. It's full of prosecution leaks and quite eerie to read, because it almost seems to anticipate what happened later. After reading Steve Moore's article and the discussion on here, I'm pretty convinced the police intended to interview Amanda that night, but was puzzled as to the reasons why they were so focused on her and RS. But from this article, it's very clear that all the attention was on the people around Meredith - they'd virtually ruled out the possibility a random intruder could have killed her, even at this early stage and before any of the forensic results were back.

If I hadn't already been convinced they fully intended to interrogate Amanda the night after this was published, I would be now.

The hint about the CCTV is interesting - had they already checked the footage and (incorrectly) identified Amanda as the woman seen walking to the cottage? (Or seen the earlier footage of Rudy, for that matter). Here's a bit more from the article, which mentions the 'simulation' of the break-in.

If they thought at this stage the break-in was fake, why is there no documentary evidence - photos, footage - to show why they thought this? Or is it that they were so convinced one of Meredith's friends was involved they just assumed it must have been faked...?

I always find that these early articles contain a wealth of information, katy, because they report the news that was being leaked spontaneously before the theory of the crime was developed. As I recall, the first police on the scene perceived the crime as an individual man-on-woman attack, and for some reason they speculated the burglary was staged.

When you compare their first impressions with the eventual theory put forth by the judge and the prosecution, it becomes apparent how far out Mignini had to go to come up with the ritualistic menage a quatre.

I have never found the broken window discussion very interesting, because I don't think it has much bearing on who murdered Meredith. The issue strikes me as inscrutable, and seems to lead mostly to endless back-and-forth arguments about it, as opposed to questions about evidence that actually can be resolved.

 

[christianahannah]

I randomly came upon this article in Corriere della Sera from 5 November, the day Amanda was interrogated. It's full of prosecution leaks and quite eerie to read, because it almost seems to anticipate what happened later. After reading Steve Moore's article and the discussion on here, I'm pretty convinced the police intended to interview Amanda that night, but was puzzled as to the reasons why they were so focused on her and RS. But from this article, it's very clear that all the attention was on the people around Meredith - they'd virtually ruled out the possibility a random intruder could have killed her, even at this early stage and before any of the forensic results were back. Here's the full original article and the Google translation.

The killer perhaps also entered the other apartment. Friends and some North Africans questioned.
Meredith, a second man emerges, traces of blood in the neighbouring apartment
From the autopsy emerges evidence of an accomplice. A witness brought to the cottage.

[snip]

Yesterday, blood was also found in the house of the neighbouring boys, just below the floor occupied by Meredith and her three roommates. Not by chance, all Sunday, the Scientific Police examined every inch of the apartment, each item of clothing, each object. The boys who live there seem to have an alibi - at the house of parents for a bridge party - but the investigators have other reasons: the apartment is continuously rented to students, and the lock has never been changed, many people come and go, friends, acquaintances, Italians and foreigners. Because of this the boys downstairs are questioned continuously. This is what is happening to many young people, in Perugia: the police and the magistrate have heard from some North Africans, one in particular, who frequented Via San Antonio, the street where Meredith lived.

And her roommates are also continuously interrogated: they were taken yesterday evening back to the house, along with another friend, Sophie. After the autopsy. In the presence of the PM, Giuliano Mignini, and men of the Mobile Squad [??] directed by Domenico Profazio and Marco Chiacchiera. One inspection lasted over an hour: one of the girls, at the exit, put a towel over her face. What does she know? Much, it seems. Of what [she?] could have been a witness, it's difficult to say. What is certain is that the investigation has a clear direction: the friends of Meredith, not an opportunistic drifter [a drifter by chance]. There are [a?] few coincidences in this horrible story: the girls who lived with the English girl, that night, were all out, and the boys downstairs were gone. Who killed Meredith, probably he/she knows [that]. They do not know, perhaps, about the cameras nearby.

In any case, before leaving, why go to the house downstairs? There are marijuana plants downstairs, in the garden, but he wants something else: perhaps change. He has the keys, knows that there's no one there, perhaps looking for men's clothes. Who knows. What emerges from the autopsy is the dynamics of the fatal blow: the murderer blocked Meredith from behind and planted the knife in her throat. The blade should not be long, a few centimetres, but it kills. Certainly the murderer would have left traces, maybe blood. Yesterday, however, a diary was also taken away from Meredith's house: it is the diary of a lighthearted English girl, leafing through it, within there are names, telephone numbers, stories pointing to what happened. If she considered the person who killed her a friend, perhaps she spoke of them in her diary. Which, in 2007, was filled with appointments, drawings, auspices. The page of 1 November, the day when she was killed, is completely blank. Without a word, a hope, a dream.

If I hadn't already been convinced they fully intended to interrogate Amanda the night after this was published, I would be now.

The hint about the CCTV is interesting - had they already checked the footage and (incorrectly) identified Amanda as the woman seen walking to the cottage? (Or seen the earlier footage of Rudy, for that matter). Here's a bit more from the article, which mentions the 'simulation' of the break-in.

If they thought at this stage the break-in was fake, why is there no documentary evidence - photos, footage - to show why they thought this? Or is it that they were so convinced one of Meredith's friends was involved they just assumed it must have been faked...?

The November 4 article in Corriere della Sera gives a bit more detail concerning some of the issues you highlight in the November 5 article. Contains information from witness statements giving names of possible acquaintances (North Africans) of Meredith, possible camera footage in one of the pubs from Halloween, and more.

http://archiviostorico.corriere.it/...va_suo_assassino_Trovate_co_9_071104164.shtml

Also read the November 6 article which adds to the previous two articles.

http://archiviostorico.corriere.it/...o_Meredith_amica_ore_dal_co_9_071106033.shtml

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Very interesting if that shard is from the window. Is there any way to be certain, Charlie? I know that it has been claimed before that the glass in Meredith's room was from a broken liquor bottle.

Who has claimed that? As far as I'm aware, there was just this one shard an no sign that any other glass object had been broken.

 

[Mary_H]

News just in: "The Rome Journal" (http://www.theromejournal.org) is the most widely-read, most influential English-language website in Italy. There was I thinking that it was a travel and listings guide for English-speaking tourists/students in Rome - but what do I know?

Regardless, I would draw everyone's attention that "The Rome Journal" has just published an eagerly-anticipated article on the case. The author is the well-respected online journalist "Rebecca". I advise everyone to read this insightful piece of investigative journalism, which most certainly adds substantially to the debate. I am also glad to see that the comments section is headed by someone who doesn't appear to be a either an exchange student or a tourist visitor to Rome. It's clearly testament to the massive reach of The Rome Journal outside what many would regard as a fairly narrowly-defined target market. I applaud The Rome Journal's international marketing efforts!

Yes, Peter Quennell was only too happy to promote this article on truejustice first thing this morning.

Huh -- what do you know? Harry Rag is the first poster -- quelle surprise! He hardly ever comments, and when he does, it's something new and original every time. The world-renowned "Rebecca" illustrates her level of knowledge about the case by actually thanking Harry for his laundry list of false claims. She also wrote:

Now, Amanda Knox is back in court. She faces slander charges against the police, who she claims hit her during the questioning a few days after the killing in November 2007. Italian police strongly denied that Knox was subjected to any physical abuse, which is supported by an external inquiry. If Knox is found guilty of slander, she could face another six years in jail, on top of the 26 years she is currently serving.

Knox’s defense lawyers filed a motion to prevent the presiding judge, Claudia Matteini, from hearing Knox’s slander case because of her involvement in the preliminary hearings into the murder. A hearing today will take the final decision about whether Matteini is the appropriate judge to hear this case. The trial is likely to start on October 1….

What is particularly unnerving about this case is the sense that much of the testimony is contradictory: All three convicted of the murder deny their involvement, but cannot explain their inconsistent testimonies, and keep changing their account of what happened on the night of the murder.

Huge red flag #1: Rebecca obviously has not read the interview between Frank Sfarzo and Manuela Comodi in which she admits no investigation was conducted.

Huge red flag #2: Oh, they're STILL changing their accounts of what happened the night of the murder? Too bad Rebecca doesn't cite any evidence for her claim -- we'd have more to talk about.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

Who has claimed that? As far as I'm aware, there was just this one shard an no sign that any other glass object had been broken.

Barbie mentions the broken bottles in Angle Face. Not a very credible source.

 

[Amazer]

Ah well, it's not actually that hard to fit the theory with the known crime scene evidence. I suspect that what you or others might say is something like "What about Guede's bloody footprints leading straight from Meredith's room to the front door?". But there's a potential simple answer to this.

My theory* would go something like this:

1) Guede kills Meredith;
2) Guede goes to get towels from bathroom to clean up blood, and washes blood off his hands at the same time (leaving some of Meredith's blood in the batchroom);
3) Guede goes from the bathroom to Filomena's room to stage the break-in;
4) Guede goes to the front door to exit the house, but it's locked and he can't see any keys (lots of footprints in the kitchen/lounge, perhaps as Guede looks for keys there);
5) Guede re-enters Meredith's room, to get Meredith's keys from her handbag (leaving her blood and his DNA on the bag;
6) Guede takes the keys from the bag, and also opportunistically takes the purse and the mobile phones;
7) Guede exits Meredith's room for a second time since the murder, but this time he steps in her blood with one of his shoes on his way out;
8) Guede closes and locks Meredith's door behind him, and exits the front door - leaving the bloody shoeprint trail behind him.

* Note that I'm not suggesting that this IS what happened - but merely that it is an alternative scenario which also matches the evidence.

If he washed his hands (as per your point 2), how did he leave Meredith's blood on her purse (as per your point 5)? I can understand how he would leave his own DNA, if he cut himself during the attack, but I fail to see how he could leave Meredith's blood on the purse if he washed his hands.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Barbie mentions the broken bottles in Angle Face. Not a very credible source.

Ah, yes, I see - Barbie's theory of the crime. "The broken glass on Meredith's floor that no one was ever able to explain was from liquor bottles."

The problem is that there was just the single piece and no sign of a broken bottle. It was a piece of just the right size and shape to become caught in the tread of a shoe. But, if one starts with the premise that the break-in was staged after the murder, then one must propose something like a broken liquor bottle, just as one must propose two knives to work out a scenario involving the knife from Raffaele's kitchen.

 

[RWVBWL]

Originally Posted by RWVBWL
He also couldn't remember Amanda being around, although she had told police, days earlier, that when Patrick Lumumba sent her a text message telling her not to come to work,she went straight over to Raffaele's and spent the entire evening there.

Well, when I read of this in B. Nadeau's book, I was just amazed, for from the many discussions here on JREF that I have read, it has seemed like the police had never heard of Patrick Lumumba's name, or even knew he was Miss Knox's boss.
But yet this seems to say that is incorrect, would you agree?
_________________________________________________________________

I shouldn't have pressed "Submit Reply" because this part is separate from the discussion of Raffaele's alibi for Amanda.

I am looking for a source (preferably court testimony) for this right now. If I'm wrong about that, I will certainly admit it. I am also trying to find out whether her British friends testified or told the police that Meredith also worked for him. That would be the only conceivable connection.

_________________________________________________________________

Hi again Stilicho,
No problem, I too have done the same.
Please do drop a note if you find something relevant to what I had read last night on page 66 of Barbie Nadeau's "Angel Face" book and posted here today for our debate.

For if this is correct, I think this changes things just a bit, in my opinion,
with regards to a recent discussion we here on JREF had.

Though I don't want to dig up our recent debate, I do remember discussing with the group that I felt that the police might have already been on the lookout for a black male being possibly involved in Miss Kercher's death.
And so that might have factored in when Amanda Knox "broke" and gave the police Patrick Lumumba's name.

I even mentioned that Miss Allesandra Formica had possibly seen someone, a man of color, leaving the general vicinity about 10:30pm that night.
Simply curious to see when Miss Formica reported this information to the police, and because I searched but could not find this out, I contacted Frank Sfarzo at Perugia Shock, who told me that Miss Formica spoke with the police after the 6th of Nov. '07.

But still, my gut feeling was that the police were looking for a black male.
Heck, I remember writing that I wondered if Mr. Lumumba would have even been arrested if he were white male(?). I just wondered...

Since they had found a black hair that was consistant with someone of African descent at the scene of the crime, (page 105, "Angel Face"), this further reinforces my opinion that they were keeping that in mind.

If the police had prior knowledge, (as Barbie Nadeau states on page 66 of "Angel Face") that Miss Knox had mentioned Patrick Lumumba as her boss, and who had sent her a text message to take the night off from work, they, meaning at least 1 of the local police officers working on this brual murder case could/should/would have possibly known that Miss Knox's boss was a male of African descent, since he ran a bar/nightclub and has been called the "most popular guy in Perugia", IIRC.

(Heck, a few police officers that I know LUV to drink.
I bet that at least 1 member of local Perugian police liked to drink alcohol and had heard of Mr. Lumumba and/or Le Chic.
Further reading in "Angel Face" on page #'s 110/111, it's written that Valter Biscotti, Rudy Guede's lawyer, threw himself a 50th birthday party at another Perugian hotspot, "The Red Zone", where many of the local legal establishment and members of the court, such as Judge Micheli, Monica Napoleoni, and Lorena Zugarani showed up to party. Even these folks go to local bars/nightclubs too.
With this in mind, I believe the someone in the police department would have known that Amanda Knox's boss was a male of African descent operating a local bar/nightclub named Le Chic.)

When Edgardo Giobbi gave the order to have Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito brought in for further questioning the night of the 5th/6th, it seems, to me at least, that with 12 officers on duty ready to interrogate, break and, as Judge Claudia Matteini stated, arrest Miss Knox before her mother arrived, the police were ready to go to work that night.

Interrogate Raffaele first, tell Amanda Knox that Raffaele was not backing her alibi anymore, bring the cell phone text messages into play, which they might have even known about already, and get her to imagine who killed her housemate and give up Mr. Lumumba, the black male who the police might have possibly thought left that hair of African descent at the murder scene...

It's too bad that the police did not, for some reason,
use video or audio recording devices to tape this interrogation...
RWVBWL

PS-Go Los Angeles Lakers!
5:56 minutes left in the 4th qrtr.
Boston Celtics: 64
Los Angeles lakers: 64
Come on L.A!

LAKERS WON their 16th Championship!!!
83 to 79
Ya baby!

 

[TellyKNeasuss]

There is no bleach receipt. Amanda never purchased bleach. Amanda wasn't at the store in the morning waiting for them to open.

Your posts are bringing up a lot of old refuted information.

That's what I get for relying on accounts of witness testimony rather than relying on blogs.

 

[stilicho]

Stilicho, I'm not sure what the point is you're trying to make, but your second statement about the guitar only further proves my point: That it's ridiculous to think Amanda cleaned every one of her fingerprints from the cottage.

I can scrounge up the cite but Laura's guitar, a hairdryer, and several other items were retrieved from the upper floor of the cottage after the arrests were made.

All the prints found were not usable. This does not mean that none of them were Amanda's. There are certain surfaces that retain prints very well (including glass and finished metal) while others don't.

The account Raffaele gave in the interrogation actually matches what happened on Halloween, rather than on the day of the murder.

I don't know if those are even Raffaele's words although they are presented in quotes. I don't approve of using sources or quotes without showing where and when the individual made the statement.

But Amanda didn't go to Le Chic to see her friends. And Raffaele wasn't home by himself. Jovana Popovic saw both of them at his flat that evening.

_________________________________________________________________

Greetings stilicho,
I knew of Miss Popovic calling to ask Raffaele Sollecito for a ride later on and then stopping by Mr. Sollecito's residence before 9:00pm the evening of Miss Kercher's death, but I found it curious that it was not mentioned in the 1st 100 pages of Barbie Nadeau's book "Angel Face", unless I can't read too well and missed it...
RWVBWL

I wouldn't recommend using a book like that as a primary source. Popovic's court testimony is summarised on several locations and I don't think it's in dispute. She saw Amanda at Raffaele's some time before 21:00 and, although she'd said she was invited in to see him, she did not actually see him there at that time.

Are you cherry-picking which medical examiner to cite? Lalli could not prove multiple assailants, IIRC. The defense experts gave two plausible scenarios for a single attacker. Though I happen to prefer one of them, the fact that there were two actually strengthens the defense's position, IMO.

Where is the DNA on Meredith's body from the person(s) doing the restraining in the multiple-attacker scenario?

We had a discussion of what constitutes proof in the medical examiner's reports before. The language used is the "is consistent with" terminology you'd expect from a scientist. The reports argue that the wounds were consistent with two knives being used in the attacks and the lack of material under the victim's fingernails suggests that she was restrained. There's a lot more to it than that, naturally, but ME reports are typically used as a starting point for further investigation.

Originally Posted by RWVBWL
He also couldn't remember Amanda being around, although she had told police, days earlier, that when Patrick Lumumba sent her a text message telling her not to come to work,she went straight over to Raffaele's and spent the entire evening there.

_________________________________________________________________

Hi again Stilicho,
No problem, I too have done the same.

Though I don't want to dig up our recent debate, I do remember discussing with the group that I felt that the police might have already been on the lookout for a black male being possibly involved in Miss Kercher's death.
And so that might have factored in when Amanda Knox "broke" and gave the police Patrick Lumumba's name.

We might have to wait for the translated report. I cannot locate anything to support the contention that the police already knew Patrick's name. His real name is Diya and not Patrick. Amanda spells it "Patrik".

I even mentioned that Miss Allesandra Formica had possibly seen someone, a man of color, leaving the general vicinity about 10:30pm that night. Simply curious to see when Miss Formica reported this information to the police, and because I searched but could not find this out, I contacted Frank Sfarzo at Perugia Shock, who told me that Miss Formica spoke with the police after the 6th of Nov. '07.

I've read summaries of her testimony and it doesn't seem to fit that well excepting her mention of the stalled vehicle.

Since they had found a black hair that was consistant with someone of African descent at the scene of the crime, (page 105, "Angel Face"), this further reinforces my opinion that they were keeping that in mind.

If the police had prior knowledge, (as Barbie Nadeau states on page 66 of "Angel Face") that Miss Knox had mentioned Patrick Lumumba as her boss, and who had sent her a text message to take the night off from work, they, meaning at least 1 of the local police officers working on this brual murder case could/should/would have possibly known that Miss Knox's boss was a male of African descent, since he ran a bar/nightclub and has been called the "most popular guy in Perugia", IIRC.

I'd still like to see the court testimony of the police. It would have been a manifest failure of the defence team not to clarify the point. After all, their clients are the ones who would benefit the most from showing that the cops knew who he was, knew he was the one who Amanda had an SMS to and from on her phone, and knew that Meredith had also worked for him.

This is from Amanda's testimony:

Ghirga?: In your preceding declarations, on Nov 2 at 15:30, on Nov 3 at 14:45, then, there was another one, Nov 4, 14:45, and then there's Nov 6, 1:45. Only in these declarations, and then in the following spontaneous declarations, did you mention the name of Patrick. Why hadn't you ever mentioned him before?

Knox: Because that was the one where they suggested Patrick's name to me.

The translation is a little peculiar but it looks like her lawyer is asking her to explain why she'd never mentioned Patrick to the police prior to 06 NOV 2007. "These declarations" should probably read "this declaration" in the second sentence to make Ghirga's last question make any sense. On three previous occasions Patrick's name never came up. This would seem to make the quote from Nadeau's book incorrect.

 

[Mary_H]

<snip> I don't know if those are even Raffaele's words although they are presented in quotes. I don't approve of using sources or quotes without showing where and when the individual made the statement.

I wouldn't recommend using a book like that as a primary source. Popovic's court testimony is summarised on several locations and I don't think it's in dispute. She saw Amanda at Raffaele's some time before 21:00 and, although she'd said she was invited in to see him, she did not actually see him there at that time.

<snip>

We might have to wait for the translated report. I cannot locate anything to support the contention that the police already knew Patrick's name. His real name is Diya and not Patrick. Amanda spells it "Patrik".

I've read summaries of her testimony and it doesn't seem to fit that well excepting her mention of the stalled vehicle.

I'd still like to see the court testimony of the police. It would have been a manifest failure of the defence team not to clarify the point. After all, their clients are the ones who would benefit the most from showing that the cops knew who he was, knew he was the one who Amanda had an SMS to and from on her phone, and knew that Meredith had also worked for him.

This is from Amanda's testimony:

Ghirga?: In your preceding declarations, on Nov 2 at 15:30, on Nov 3 at 14:45, then, there was another one, Nov 4, 14:45, and then there's Nov 6, 1:45. Only in these declarations, and then in the following spontaneous declarations, did you mention the name of Patrick. Why hadn't you ever mentioned him before?

Knox: Because that was the one where they suggested Patrick's name to me.

The translation is a little peculiar but it looks like her lawyer is asking her to explain why she'd never mentioned Patrick to the police prior to 06 NOV 2007. "These declarations" should probably read "this declaration" in the second sentence to make Ghirga's last question make any sense. On three previous occasions Patrick's name never came up. This would seem to make the quote from Nadeau's book incorrect.

We have had several discussions on these pages about whether or not the police were suspicious of Amanda and Raffaele long before their interrogations of the 5th-6th. Some of us have said there is no evidence of any words or behavior from Amanda or Raffaele that would arouse enough suspicion in the minds of the police that they would want to bring them in for more formal interrogations. In other words, we have concluded the suspects were brought in on a whim, a conclusion which essentially has been backed up by Edgardo Giobbi's comments about intuition.

Other posters have stated that the police were suspicious of Amanda from Day One, and these posters have asked questions such as (to paraphrase), "Do you really think the police would interview Amanda about the crime scene without also asking her where she was and what she was doing the night before the crime?" They have insisted that the police would have been thorough in obtaining details from the housemates about the night the crime took place.

In that sense, what RWVBWL reports about the Barbie Nadeau passage makes sense. "[Raffaele] also couldn't remember Amanda being around, although she had told police, days earlier, that when Patrick Lumumba sent her a text message telling her not to come to work, she went straight over to Raffaele's and spent the entire evening there."

If you want to claim the police questioned Amanda thoroughly about what she did the night of the murder, then you should concede that she probably did tell them about the messages between herself and Patrick -- how she had planned to go to work but Patrick told her not to come in. I don't see how you are left with any argument that the police did not know who Patrick was.

I might even be willing to concede it myself, although until now I have thought the police had suspected Patrick on their own initiative, and while looking at his phone records found the connections between his number and Amanda's.