Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[LondonJohn]

I had seen you advance this theory, London John. It gives a possible motivation for Rudy to stage a break-in and that is the first step, one that you have done a good job with, in my opinion. The next step is fitting that theory with the evidence. When did he stage the break in and how does that fit with the footprints, etc?

Ah well, it's not actually that hard to fit the theory with the known crime scene evidence. I suspect that what you or others might say is something like "What about Guede's bloody footprints leading straight from Meredith's room to the front door?". But there's a potential simple answer to this.

My theory* would go something like this:

1) Guede kills Meredith;
2) Guede goes to get towels from bathroom to clean up blood, and washes blood off his hands at the same time (leaving some of Meredith's blood in the batchroom);
3) Guede goes from the bathroom to Filomena's room to stage the break-in;
4) Guede goes to the front door to exit the house, but it's locked and he can't see any keys (lots of footprints in the kitchen/lounge, perhaps as Guede looks for keys there);
5) Guede re-enters Meredith's room, to get Meredith's keys from her handbag (leaving her blood and his DNA on the bag;
6) Guede takes the keys from the bag, and also opportunistically takes the purse and the mobile phones;
7) Guede exits Meredith's room for a second time since the murder, but this time he steps in her blood with one of his shoes on his way out;
8) Guede closes and locks Meredith's door behind him, and exits the front door - leaving the bloody shoeprint trail behind him.

* Note that I'm not suggesting that this IS what happened - but merely that it is an alternative scenario which also matches the evidence.

 

[LondonJohn]

Apparently the fact that Amanda Knox has had her hair cut shorter while in prison is actually a carefully-crafted attempt to subliminally re-brand Knox as a "Joan of Arc"-style martyr. Who'd have thought it....?

 

[Bruce Fischer]

Is it true that the luminol-revealed hallway footprints were said to have NOT been tested for blood, but that it was later discovered (c. June 2009?) that they HAD (by Stefanoni), and the result had been conclusively negative?

Thanx.

Yes.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

So you're claiming the report about the receipt isn't true? Whatever. The grocer testified that Amanda shopped for cleaning supplies. I'm sure that it was just by coincidence it happened to be the morning after the murder. And she was in such a hurry that she waiting outside when the store opened. This despite her claim that she had slept until 10. I'm sure that it was also just a coincidence that she forgot about this. Just like it was a coincidence that RS had forgotten that he hadn't used his computer after 9:00 the previous night.

There is no bleach receipt. Amanda never purchased bleach. Amanda wasn't at the store in the morning waiting for them to open.

Your posts are bringing up a lot of old refuted information.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

Apparently the fact that Amanda Knox has had her hair cut shorter while in prison is actually a carefully-crafted attempt to subliminally re-brand Knox as a "Joan of Arc"-style martyr. Who'd have thought it....?

To be honest nothing that is mentioned on that board surprises me anymore. Thankfully not many people read it.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Ah well, it's not actually that hard to fit the theory with the known crime scene evidence. I suspect that what you or others might say is something like "What about Guede's bloody footprints leading straight from Meredith's room to the front door?". But there's a potential simple answer to this.

My theory* would go something like this:

1) Guede kills Meredith;
2) Guede goes to get towels from bathroom to clean up blood, and washes blood off his hands at the same time (leaving some of Meredith's blood in the batchroom);
3) Guede goes from the bathroom to Filomena's room to stage the break-in;
4) Guede goes to the front door to exit the house, but it's locked and he can't see any keys (lots of footprints in the kitchen/lounge, perhaps as Guede looks for keys there);
5) Guede re-enters Meredith's room, to get Meredith's keys from her handbag (leaving her blood and his DNA on the bag;
6) Guede takes the keys from the bag, and also opportunistically takes the purse and the mobile phones;
7) Guede exits Meredith's room for a second time since the murder, but this time he steps in her blood with one of his shoes on his way out;
8) Guede closes and locks Meredith's door behind him, and exits the front door - leaving the bloody shoeprint trail behind him.

* Note that I'm not suggesting that this IS what happened - but merely that it is an alternative scenario which also matches the evidence.

There was only enough blood on Rudy's shoes to make it to the front door? As in, there wasn't even enough for a single footprint showing he turned around?

I don't think the evidence fits that quite as much as you would like, LJ.

 

[stilicho]

It is written on page 66 while Raffaele Sollecito is being interviewed in a tiny room in the police station while Amanda Knox was doing her homework and her infamous cartwheels in the waiting room:

"I went home on my own. Amanda said she was going to Le Chic because she wanted to see some friends. That's when we said goodbye. I went home, smoked a joint and had dinner, but I can't remember what I ate."

He also couldn't remember Amanda being around, although she had told police, days earlier, that when Patrick Lumumba sent her a text message telling her not to come to work,she went straight over to Raffaele's and spent the entire evening there.

Well, when I read of this in B. Nadeau's book, I was just amazed, for from the many discussions here on JREF that I have read, it has seemed like the police had never heard of Patrick Lumumba's name, or even knew he was Miss Knox's boss.
But yet this seems to say that is incorrect, would you agree?
If correct, the police then did indeed know of Patrick Lumumba before the night of the 5th/6th.
Hmmm...
RWVBWL

But Amanda didn't go to Le Chic to see her friends. And Raffaele wasn't home by himself. Jovana Popovic saw both of them at his flat that evening.

If that is really Raffaele's version of events then it contradicts what one of his own defence witnesses told the court under oath. What source is used for any of this?

 

[stilicho]

1) Guede kills Meredith;

The medical examiner determined that Meredith was restrained during the murder and that multiple attackers were involved. This was accepted by the court partly because the defence experts could not agree on how the wounds could have been inflicted by a lone assailant.

2) Guede goes to get towels from bathroom to clean up blood, and washes blood off his hands at the same time (leaving some of Meredith's blood in the batchroom);

There is no evidence that RG was in that bathroom but there was evidence he was in the "small bathroom".

3) Guede goes from the bathroom to Filomena's room to stage the break-in;

There is no evidence that RG was ever in Filomena's room.

4) Guede goes to the front door to exit the house, but it's locked and he can't see any keys (lots of footprints in the kitchen/lounge, perhaps as Guede looks for keys there);

Speculation.

5) Guede re-enters Meredith's room, to get Meredith's keys from her handbag (leaving her blood and his DNA on the bag;

There is no evidence that RG re-entered Meredith's room.

6) Guede takes the keys from the bag, and also opportunistically takes the purse and the mobile phones;

The mobile phones were discovered and there was no trace of RG on them. More importantly, there is no evidence that the mobile phones were together, no evidence Meredith kept them in her bag, and no evidence that anyone apart from the upper-floor residents at the cottage knew that she carried two phones.

7) Guede exits Meredith's room for a second time since the murder, but this time he steps in her blood with one of his shoes on his way out;

Did he also trip over Amanda's lamp cord? When and why--in your scenario--did RG bring Amanda's lamp into Meredith's room?

8) Guede closes and locks Meredith's door behind him, and exits the front door - leaving the bloody shoeprint trail behind him.

I thought that in point 4 you'd already explained the prints. Where did this new set of prints come from? How did RG not leave prints at point 5?

* Note that I'm not suggesting that this IS what happened - but merely that it is an alternative scenario which also matches the evidence.

It doesn't match the evidence. It doesn't explain a number of things including:

- the discarded cell phones.
- Amanda's and Meredith's mixed DNA.
- Raffaele's bathmat print.
- Raffaele's DNA on Meredith's bra.
- the signs of a clean up.
- Amanda's lamp locked in Meredith's room.
- the unflushed toilet.

 

[stilicho]

He also couldn't remember Amanda being around, although she had told police, days earlier, that when Patrick Lumumba sent her a text message telling her not to come to work,she went straight over to Raffaele's and spent the entire evening there.

Well, when I read of this in B. Nadeau's book, I was just amazed, for from the many discussions here on JREF that I have read, it has seemed like the police had never heard of Patrick Lumumba's name, or even knew he was Miss Knox's boss.
But yet this seems to say that is incorrect, would you agree?

I shouldn't have pressed "Submit Reply" because this part is separate from the discussion of Raffaele's alibi for Amanda.

I am looking for a source (preferably court testimony) for this right now. If I'm wrong about that, I will certainly admit it. I am also trying to find out whether her British friends testified or told the police that Meredith also worked for him. That would be the only conceivable connection.

 

[LondonJohn]

News just in: "The Rome Journal" (http://www.theromejournal.org) is the most widely-read, most influential English-language website in Italy. There was I thinking that it was a travel and listings guide for English-speaking tourists/students in Rome - but what do I know?

Regardless, I would draw everyone's attention that "The Rome Journal" has just published an eagerly-anticipated article on the case. The author is the well-respected online journalist "Rebecca". I advise everyone to read this insightful piece of investigative journalism, which most certainly adds substantially to the debate. I am also glad to see that the comments section is headed by someone who doesn't appear to be a either an exchange student or a tourist visitor to Rome. It's clearly testament to the massive reach of The Rome Journal outside what many would regard as a fairly narrowly-defined target market. I applaud The Rome Journal's international marketing efforts!

 

[RWVBWL]

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/contamination2.html

Watching this video clip of how the DNA+blood evidence was collected in this link that Bruce Fisher posted earlier today, I can't help but think CONTAMINATION with regards to both the collection and/or then subsequent testing of this evidence, though others, especially a few of the "guilter's", may disagree.

I also believe that this collection and then testing was done by this same person,
whom 'Supernaut' wrote of "that the luminol-revealed hallway footprints were said to have NOT been tested for blood, but that it was later discovered (c. June 2009?) that they HAD (by Stefanoni), and the result had been conclusively negative?"

Interesting...
RWVBWL

 

[christianahannah]

There's no mention in Massei's report of any knives from the cottage being tested, which is a pretty crazy situation if true. Maybe Charlie or Bruce would know for sure?

I thought the comment from Steve Moore that in this type of spontaneous crime, the person would be more likely to find a weapon in the place they were breaking into rather than to bring it with them was pretty interesting. It fits what we know of Rudy's behaviour previously, when he took a knife from the kitchen of the nursery he broke into for 'self-protection'. The girls were shown the knife drawer in the kitchen and said they didn't think any were missing, but would they really have known for sure? Especially if the knives came with the cottage. This is what Amanda says about them in her testimony:



If the knives were all in a drawer instead of laid out as they are in the picture it would probably have been even more difficult to tell if any were missing. We know Rudy was looking round the kitchen, because he said he took an orange juice carton from the fridge and drank from it (probably expecting his DNA would be found on it). So what else was he doing in there?

Either way it would be very strange if none of those knives were tested. Even if it's more likely the killer(s) would have taken the knife with them, it's still possible they wouldn't want to be caught carrying a murder weapon, and might have cleaned it and put it back in the drawer. You'd at least check, wouldn't you?

I don't read anything either way as to no mention of the knives being tested in the motivations. There were 10,000 pages of transcripts/documents during the trial and the motivations is 400+ so obviously everything isn't mentioned that was presented at trial. It could be the knives were tested and that information is in one of the many documents.

As to whether the girls would know what was missing or not among the knives, if they were furnished by the landlord he/she might have a list of the utensils/furnishings/etc. included in the rental. Perhaps the knives were compared with that list. I thought that it was mentioned Amanda had brought a knife set from Germany(?) but didn't use it because there were already knives supplied with the flat (I am not completely sure of this information).

If each brought their own knives they may be able to document what they brought but I'm not sure that they would be able to account for any Meredith might have brought.

 

[katy_did]

I randomly came upon this article in Corriere della Sera from 5 November, the day Amanda was interrogated. It's full of prosecution leaks and quite eerie to read, because it almost seems to anticipate what happened later. After reading Steve Moore's article and the discussion on here, I'm pretty convinced the police intended to interview Amanda that night, but was puzzled as to the reasons why they were so focused on her and RS. But from this article, it's very clear that all the attention was on the people around Meredith - they'd virtually ruled out the possibility a random intruder could have killed her, even at this early stage and before any of the forensic results were back. Here's the full original article and the Google translation.

The killer perhaps also entered the other apartment. Friends and some North Africans questioned.
Meredith, a second man emerges, traces of blood in the neighbouring apartment
From the autopsy emerges evidence of an accomplice. A witness brought to the cottage.

[snip]

Yesterday, blood was also found in the house of the neighbouring boys, just below the floor occupied by Meredith and her three roommates. Not by chance, all Sunday, the Scientific Police examined every inch of the apartment, each item of clothing, each object. The boys who live there seem to have an alibi - at the house of parents for a bridge party - but the investigators have other reasons: the apartment is continuously rented to students, and the lock has never been changed, many people come and go, friends, acquaintances, Italians and foreigners. Because of this the boys downstairs are questioned continuously. This is what is happening to many young people, in Perugia: the police and the magistrate have heard from some North Africans, one in particular, who frequented Via San Antonio, the street where Meredith lived.

And her roommates are also continuously interrogated: they were taken yesterday evening back to the house, along with another friend, Sophie. After the autopsy. In the presence of the PM, Giuliano Mignini, and men of the Mobile Squad [??] directed by Domenico Profazio and Marco Chiacchiera. One inspection lasted over an hour: one of the girls, at the exit, put a towel over her face. What does she know? Much, it seems. Of what [she?] could have been a witness, it's difficult to say. What is certain is that the investigation has a clear direction: the friends of Meredith, not an opportunistic drifter [a drifter by chance]. There are [a?] few coincidences in this horrible story: the girls who lived with the English girl, that night, were all out, and the boys downstairs were gone. Who killed Meredith, probably he/she knows [that]. They do not know, perhaps, about the cameras nearby.

In any case, before leaving, why go to the house downstairs? There are marijuana plants downstairs, in the garden, but he wants something else: perhaps change. He has the keys, knows that there's no one there, perhaps looking for men's clothes. Who knows. What emerges from the autopsy is the dynamics of the fatal blow: the murderer blocked Meredith from behind and planted the knife in her throat. The blade should not be long, a few centimetres, but it kills. Certainly the murderer would have left traces, maybe blood. Yesterday, however, a diary was also taken away from Meredith's house: it is the diary of a lighthearted English girl, leafing through it, within there are names, telephone numbers, stories pointing to what happened. If she considered the person who killed her a friend, perhaps she spoke of them in her diary. Which, in 2007, was filled with appointments, drawings, auspices. The page of 1 November, the day when she was killed, is completely blank. Without a word, a hope, a dream.

If I hadn't already been convinced they fully intended to interrogate Amanda the night after this was published, I would be now.

The hint about the CCTV is interesting - had they already checked the footage and (incorrectly) identified Amanda as the woman seen walking to the cottage? (Or seen the earlier footage of Rudy, for that matter). Here's a bit more from the article, which mentions the 'simulation' of the break-in.

The three clear points:

THE WINDOW. A window of the apartment in which Meredith lived with her three friends was found broken: the murderer would have broken the glass in order to simulate a robbery.

CELL PHONES: Investigations on the two cell phones of the victim which were found in a nearby garden. Whoever killed Meredith may have left traces useful for identification.

BLOOD: Traces of blood were also found in the apartment of the boys who live underneath Meredith's flat: they have an alibi, but others may have the keys.

If they thought at this stage the break-in was fake, why is there no documentary evidence - photos, footage - to show why they thought this? Or is it that they were so convinced one of Meredith's friends was involved they just assumed it must have been faked...?

 

[Malkmus]

What do you base your conclusions on? How many usable fingerprints should there be in the cottage? How many should belong to Knox?

The lawyer asked the police investigator why he didn't look for her prints on her guitar (which I believe was Laura's and not hers) or her books. The answer ought to be pretty simple. Meredith was not killed with a guitar or a book.

Stilicho, I'm not sure what the point is you're trying to make, but your second statement about the guitar only further proves my point: That it's ridiculous to think Amanda cleaned every one of her fingerprints from the cottage. This came from an out-of-context statement from another poster that none of her own fingerprints were found in her own room, and that in itself was evidence of a clean-up. But we know that LE didn't check every single surface and object in the cottage (like guitars), and that they likely only checked the surfaces of things that could be incriminating. It's also very likely that there were many more than the 100 or so fingerprints found since we know they didn't check every surface. To be clear, I'm not at all trying to say that they should have checked every nook and cranny for prints, but rather make it clear to some posters that not all of Amanda's prints were found simply because LE didn't look everywhere for them, especially places like her own bedroom.

 

[katy_did]

But Amanda didn't go to Le Chic to see her friends. And Raffaele wasn't home by himself. Jovana Popovic saw both of them at his flat that evening.

If that is really Raffaele's version of events then it contradicts what one of his own defence witnesses told the court under oath. What source is used for any of this?

The account Raffaele gave in the interrogation actually matches what happened on Halloween, rather than on the day of the murder. He and Amanda were in town till about 9, then she went off to Le Chic to meet friends and he went home, no doubt to surf the net and take a call from his dad. Then either she returned or they met up at about 1 or 2. I think he got his days mixed up (no doubt with a little encouragement from the police).

 

[christianahannah]

But Amanda didn't go to Le Chic to see her friends. And Raffaele wasn't home by himself. Jovana Popovic saw both of them at his flat that evening.

If that is really Raffaele's version of events then it contradicts what one of his own defence witnesses told the court under oath. What source is used for any of this?

From what has been reported and from what I have read of Raffaele's November 5 interrogation/statement I haven't read the bolded part of RWVBWL's post being attributed to Raffaele:

He also couldn't remember Amanda being around, although she had told police, days earlier, that when Patrick Lumumba sent her a text message telling her not to come to work,she went straight over to Raffaele's and spent the entire evening there.

Raffaele could have said this in his statement but it could also be Nadeau putting two different thoughts into one sentence - what Raffaele told the police and what Amanda told the police. Hopefully Nadeau has a source note for this sentence.

Also, in referring to Popovic, wasn't it only Amanda who saw her at 20:40 or so, and not Raffaele?

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Is it true that the luminol-revealed hallway footprints were said to have NOT been tested for blood, but that it was later discovered (c. June 2009?) that they HAD (by Stefanoni), and the result had been conclusively negative?

Thanx.

The google translation of Massei's report suggests that TMB was used on at least some of the luminol prints with a negative result:

With reference to traces luminol positive, identified in the room Romanelli, and Knox's room in the corridor showed that by analyzing the cards SAL "We learn in contrast to what was presented in the technical report of the forensic team that has been filed and argued in court that not only was performed the reaction with luminol but on this track was also performed generic diagnosis of blood through the use of tetramethylbenzidine test ... ... and this has negative results for specimens from which it was possible to obtain a genetic profile "(pages 73 and 74). We therefore asked if it was possible to interpret these traces as natural blood. Analyzing the data quantification, adding, "we see that the amount of DNA obtained from most of these tracks is to be consistent with low copy number DNA and then with DNA present in low quantities, even in this case it is necessary to ask whether the amplifier is was repeated or not to be considered scientifically valid result has been achieved "(p. 74).

Upon request, the PM confirmed that the findings 178.179, 180 had been extracted a profile of Knox and the biological material that could not be said with certainty to be human blood, could be, he says, "saliva, cell disintegration" (p. 78 ) and the negative given to the tetramethylbenzidine (TMB), not to determine what could be the material that had been analyzed. However, confirmed that he had been found the profile of Knox ( "Certainly, the genetic profile of Knox has been found" page. 79). He reported that, according to his own experience, the analysis made by the TMB on track with the enhanced luminol gave statistically equal to a percentage: 50% of the cases in which negative and 50% when the analysis was positive and indicated that the acronym should be a reaction TMB clorimetrica that occurs in the presence of tetramethylbenzidine, which had replaced the carcinogenic benzidine; through this reaction could determine the presence of blood.

Samples 178, 179, and 180 were luminol reactions in Amanda's room, BTW.

 

[RWVBWL]

But Amanda didn't go to Le Chic to see her friends. And Raffaele wasn't home by himself. Jovana Popovic saw both of them at his flat that evening.

_________________________________________________________________

Greetings stilicho,
I knew of Miss Popovic calling to ask Raffaele Sollecito for a ride later on and then stopping by Mr. Sollecito's residence before 9:00pm the evening of Miss Kercher's death, but I found it curious that it was not mentioned in the 1st 100 pages of Barbie Nadeau's book "Angel Face", unless I can't read too well and missed it...
RWVBWL

 

[Chris_Halkides]

why no DNA from Raffaele or Amanda

The medical examiner determined that Meredith was restrained during the murder and that multiple attackers were involved. This was accepted by the court partly because the defence experts could not agree on how the wounds could have been inflicted by a lone assailant.

Are you cherry-picking which medical examiner to cite? Lalli could not prove multiple assailants, IIRC. The defense experts gave two plausible scenarios for a single attacker. Though I happen to prefer one of them, the fact that there were two actually strengthens the defense's position, IMO.

Where is the DNA on Meredith's body from the person(s) doing the restraining in the multiple-attacker scenario?

 

[Jungle Jim]

3) Guede goes from the bathroom to Filomena's room to stage the break-in;

* Note that I'm not suggesting that this IS what happened - but merely that it is an alternative scenario which also matches the evidence.

Not quite. Where/when did Rudy get the rock that was found in Filomena's room?