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Ed All 43 videos "Second Hit"" [Explosion]at WTC 2: Plane or No Plane?

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There are at minimum four independent lines of evidence that demonstrate the presence of jetliners hitting the Twin Towers.
  1. Everyone has already cited the eyewitness accounts, but the truther responses to those are inadequate. No one can dismiss those accounts on the basis of them being listed on a specific individual's page, given that the individual in question has linked to original sources, and no one can dismiss them on facile lunacies like the inaccuracy of human recall; while there's not universal agreement on the details of the jets that impacted, every single witness testifies that jets hit. This is indisputable. In order to make refutations to their testimonies to work, those refutations must 1. Demonstrate that a jet was in fact not present, and 2. Establish what the item was that they did see. General issues with witness recall are limited in scope to details and fail to refute the summary of testimonies adding up to jets being present. And stupid requests for "official documentation" in the face of multiple news quotes as well as independent supporting evidence is not an attempt to establish reality, it's an attempt to negate it. In the absence of that, simplistic, argumentative dismissals fail to refute their testimony. End of story.
  2. The radar data in conjunction with other electronic evidence also establishes the presence of jets at the Twin Towers. In order to refute this, the refutation must attempt to explain how the radar data is wrong, and/or how people interpreting it were fooled. Simple handwaves of the supposed omnipotence of the government are NOT sufficient. On top of that, refutations of this must also not contradict the witness statements, so taking the easy way out by saying records were faked is insufficient in the face of eyewitness testimony (see above) unless the explanation for how they were faked is somehow made consistent with what witnesses saw. And then, it still must agree with the other lines of evidence following.
  3. The aircraft debris by itself establishes the presence of jets in the area. Refutations to this must not contradict with both the radar/electronic evidence given above, and with the eyewitness testimonies.
  4. Video evidence (Google these for yourselves). This also establishes the presence of jets in the area, and above and beyond that, is replayable and can be used to pick out details that a real-time eyewitness wouldn't have had time to discern. Refutations to this, like above, can not contradict the previous lines of evidence.
The fact that jets hit the Twin Towers is established. The evidence has been in existence for a long time now. If one wants to rebut this evidence, as I noted above, the rebuttals must explain what happened in return. And it must conform to the evidence that does exist. Saying that witnesses could not have seen a jet is contradicted by the wreckage and the radar/electronic data, as well as the video. Saying that the radar data or video was faked is contradicted by the eyewitnesses who clearly saw aircraft hit both towers. Saying that the debris is faked is also contradicted by eyewitnesses, debris, radar, and video. A rebuttal, in order to be a consistent and correct explanation of the event, MUST take into account all the lines of evidence and explain them. It must explain what the witnesses did see. It must explain what the radar recorded. It must explain what the jetliner debris was doing in New York, and how it got there. And it must explain what was recorded by video and film crews. If it does not, then it fails to refute the established narrative. Period.

Now, if truthers want to have a productive, sensible conversation, then they must take all that into account. This is because the above is the bar that logic sets; it's not a requirement that I or anyone else generates. Explanations must take into account all lines of evidence. If they do not, they fail, pure and simple. And they fail because they not only do not account for what is know, but are contradicted by it.

Explain the event now using the totality of the evidnece. And put away with this senseless distortion of irrelevant details. Not only is that mere argumentiveness for the sake of being disruptive, it fails to address what's known and established.

Elmondo,

You are slipping. Your repitition of claims that have been refuted six ways to Sunday does not reflect well upon posting.

In each of the 4 claims you are making, there has been substantial refutation clearly and visibly posted and sourced.

By way of non-exhaustive example:

1--The debunker website you rely on for witnesses is of very poor quality. It contains but two signficant sources of witnesses; PAPD and TASK FORCE statements. Each of those two sources contain, in the aggregate, more NO PLANE accounts than PLANE SPOT accounts.

2--The radar data is hopelessly compromised by the fact that there was no way to distinguish real blips from exercise blips. For instance, we all know that Air traffic controller Pete Zalewski was the one who thought he recognized a foreign, Middle Eastern-sounding voice, but does not make out the specific words that are attributed to the conversation he overheard, namely, the famous “we have some planes” declaration.

Zalewski did however respond saying: “Who’s trying to call me?” Seconds later, in the next transmission, the transmission includes: “Nobody move. Everything will be OK. If you try to make any moves you’ll endanger yourself and the airplane. Just stay quiet,” according to the 9/11 Commission and mainstream media stallwart MSNBC, 9/9/2006.

But Bill Peacock, the FAA director of air traffic services, (confirmed by the FAA transcript) later says:

“We didn’t know where the transmission came from, what was said and who said it.”

And, David Canoles, the FAA’s manager of air traffic evaluations and investigations, adds:

“The broadcast wasn’t attributed to a flight. Nobody gave a flight number.”

The FAA report that is the source of the radar claims simply says with respect to these claimed transmissions that they came from:

“an unknown origin.”


See: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB165/faa7.pdf
pg. 4/59

Similarly, the radar data itself could not be distinguished, "real" from "exercise."

I have elsewhere said as follows about the matter of the radar and the military exercises:

"The significance of the MILITARY EXERCISES is that they are a means by which the events of 9/11 could actually have been carried out if they were disguised as exercises, but were, in fact "real."

The tapes confirm that the difference between what was "real" and what was "exercise" was not readily discernible."

For purposes of information, the FAA report that is the basis of the radar claims can be found at:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB165/faa7.pdf

As you can see, for instance at pg. 4/59, much of the information was "of unknown origin."

3--The debris issue is one of the weakest and most absurd of all of the claims. Not one single piece of aircraft debris was identified by part number, thus confirming that all claims concerning debris are utterly and completely useless as evidence. Does anyone here have any difficulty understanding the words "utterly and completely useless as evidence?

I hope not.

4--As to video. That is what this thread is about. It is very clear that posters here cannot, will not and certainly have not responded to the many posts that have been put into this thread showing that the shadow thingy does not behave as a jetliner would behave, is eratic and inconsistent from one video to the next, is not seen at all in some and always explodes in the wrong place and at the wrong time and never sounds like a widebody jetliner <1000ft above street level at 550mph.

The video is a clear indicator of 9/11 fraud and deception. And, as we clearly know, the witnesses who were present and accounted for almost uniformly report an explosion and not a plane crash.

That about does it for your post, Elmondo.

Do better, if you can.
 
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Watch the CBS live feed. You can clearly see the wing and the tail of the plane come in from the right, as it crashes into the tower. This is LIVE.

FAIL. MAJOR TRUTHER FAIL.

boy am I glad I posted this link. :)

Can you please help us out here by providing a link and/or a time segment, please. I will be happy to look at the video you are espousing if you will provide us with a source.

That said, I know, in advance, that the video will not have any sound consistent with a jetliner at <1000ft@550mph, and will show a shadow thingy gliding through steel beams as though the steel beams were butter instead of steel and as though the presumed hollow aluminum jetliner and its wings (that always sheer right off on contact with virtually anything solid) will simply glide through the steel building as though it was either butter or not there at all.

So, come out with your source, Thunder, and bring to the table the very best you can do. Afterwards, if you still want to believe a jetliner hit the South Tower, you are free to do so as far as I am concerned. As you know, I don't question beliefs. I do, however, analyze data. Videos are data.
 
Oh...look.

The LIVE shot from the NBC feed also shows the plane come in for an impact.

how about that. its two in a row.

;)

http://www.archive.org/details/nbc200109110831-0912

go to 31:47. you can see the plane start come in there.

http://www.archive.org/details/cbs200109110831-0912

this is the CBS live feed. 31:50 has the plane come in.

http://www.archive.org/details/fox5200109110831-0912

here is the local Fox affiliate live shot. the camera is too close to see any plane. however, starting at about 29:00, you can hear an eye witness from Hoboken, NJ describe in detail how he saw the FIRST plane fly, turn, and crash into the tower. And then at 31:53 the 2nd comes in, and you see the explosion.

http://www.archive.org/details/cnn200109110848-0929

here is the CNN live feed, which switches to the local New York ABC station. plane comes in at 14:53.

THREE DIFFERENT NETWORKS. THREE DIFFERENT CAMERA ANGLES. ALL LIVE FEEDS. ALL SHOW A PLANE.

MAJOR TRUTHER FAIL.

:)
 
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there is only ONE possible way to refute this evidence.

one must argue and provide evidence that the evil NWO gave all three networks, three different versions of footage of a plane crashing into the WTC....or...

one must argue that the evil NWO was able to project a massive three dimensional hologram onto the sky of New York City, that can be seen from miles away.

:)
 
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Here's a quote that I found at the very FIRST link I clicked on in the archive that Thunder wanted us to see:

"Notice, you DON'T ACTUALLY SEE the impact until they show the "replay". And these were live shots; what we saw live should have been what was replayed."

Source:

http://www.archive.org/details/nbc200109110831-0912

The second piece of information I looked at was the ABC coverage that, at the 19:59 mark of the video has the talking head lady in red telling us

"We just got a report of some kind of EXPLOSION at the WTC"

Source:

http://www.archive.org/details/abc200109110831-0912

What was the report, once again? It was a report of an explosion.

So, Our Diane Sawyer is yet another candidate for the coveted title of FIRST NO PLANER.

Come on, posters and lurkers, the actual confirmation that NO BOEING 767s hit the Twin Towers is right there in front of you and has been all along.

Look at it, please.


ps
The page numbering for the thread is now out of whack. So I'll have to resume at pg. 25 with the next in the ALL 43 sequence. :cool:


Once again I'm going to ask you this question. Yet again I'm sure it will be ignored, but I'll ask anyway.

Shouldn't a jet full of fuel explode when it crashes into a building?

You seem to think it should pass right through unscathed.
 
Thanks for another thoughtful post. You say:



Parsing of what posters say is fine. Without knowing exactly what post of mine you are referring to, I do not know whether something needs to be modified or not.

My overall point is that no video accurately depicts the sound of a jetliner <1000ft up at 550mph. On that statement I stand.

I did comment, albeit indirectly, on your reference to the source of the videos. My comment was that you were seeking to rationalize or justify the lack of accurate sound. Fine, you are engaging in rationalization and/or excuse making. The fact remains, the videos do not depict the sound of a low, fast, widebody jetliner.

That is the fact of the matter.



Once again, you have engaged in a textbook example of rationalization, in explaining why a highly disturbing and extreme attention-getting, environmentally distracting event was not seen or heard. Jetliners do not fly at maximum speed at low altitude. The 9/11 common storyline mandates jetliners at <1000ft above street level at or exceeding 500mph.

And, no one heard it as there are no reports I know of damaged eardrums, which such an event would have caused on a widespread basis.

A jetliner at 550mph would split eardrums, literally, and cause severe pain. People were absolutely oblivious to the event, as evidenced by, say, the Dick Oliver video, about which we have had 60+pgs of posting.



I have elsewhere addressed the Naudet video, blob thingy, in some detail. You might benefit from taking a look at the two Dick Oliver threads:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171082

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174043

Thanks, again, for your thoughtful posting.

Good thing I am rational, and do not make absurd claims that it would have split ear drums:

http://www.makeitlouder.com/Decibel Level Chart.txt


you may wish to direct your attention to 172 decibels you will find the plane in question a 767, and it clearly states that this decibel level is at sea level.

eardrums split or burst between 190-195 as you can see on the chart only 50% percent of the time

this took .013 seconds to find in an internet search, there is no excuse making whatsoever, it is what it is, you post a video that is mostly made up of news broadcasts, WITH VOICEOVERS, then generalize a statement that no jet can be heard is completely dishonest, shows no integrity, and shows the lengths the truth movement will go to, in an attempt to prove some inside job by the US govt and a number of other agencies, and for what???

Thank Goodness for being rational, but let me ask you this, have you bothered to contact the news networks to get the raw footage of the second tower? or how about the pilots of the NYPD choppers that were in the air?

see, the reason you don't have thousands and thousands and thousands of documented eye and earwitness testimony, is due to a few reasons.

1. the awe factor, the fact that a PLANE had struck one of the towers, everyone became a spectator, 911 calls begin, RESCUE OPERATIONS begin.
2. second strike happens RESCUE OPERATIONS increase.(every firefighter and police officer on the scene are concerned with rescuing every living soul they can, they know what happened 2 planes have struck the towers, they have the numerous 911 calls from witnesses to the tragedy.
3. building 2 collapses. public officials are concerned with getting everyone to safety that they can, planes to attack the pile begin.
4. building one collapses, these efforts increase, again keep in mind, they already know that 2 planes have struck the towers
5.as the day goes attention is turned to building 7, again expecting the collapse of this building officials concentrate on the safety of those still on the scene by setting up a barrier.
6. after all of the buildings have collapsed RESCUE OPERATIONS are again turned to the piles in the hopes of finding survivors, it wouldn't be until after these efforts are exhausted that the criminal investigation would begin. by this time many eyewitnesses have left the area.

You must also keep in mind that the skyline of NYC can be seen for miles around so from all of the expressways and thruways you have thousands upon thousands of witnesses, again thank goodness I am rational.

Sorry for the lengthy post, but needed to be said as I only have 19:41 left to post before the rational turn the forum over to the nutjobs.
 
Oh...look.

The LIVE shot from the NBC feed also shows the plane come in for an impact.

how about that. its two in a row.

;)

http://www.archive.org/details/nbc200109110831-0912

go to 31:47. you can see the plane start come in there.

http://www.archive.org/details/cbs200109110831-0912

this is the CBS live feed. 31:50 has the plane come in.

http://www.archive.org/details/cnn200109110848-0929

here is the CNN live feed, which switches to the local New York ABC station. plane comes in at 14:53.

THREE DIFFERENT NETWORKS. THREE DIFFERENT CAMERA ANGLES. ALL LIVE FEEDS. ALL SHOW A PLANE.

MAJOR TRUTHER FAIL.

:)

Thunder,

You have got to be kidding me. If you look at your CBS footage, starting about one minute earlier, you will hear someone describing have heard an, you guessed it, EXPLOSION.

Then the video sequence you have cited us to is completely stupid. The shadow thingy starts out by descending almost straight downward from N to S, so to speak. Then, out of another camera angle, the shadow thingy crawls in, ominously I might add, looking for all the world like JAWS for goodness sakes, and then we see the explosion in the wrong place, never once hearing anything, of course.

I told you you weren't going to be able to post up anything worthwhile. Little did I know you would refer us to what has to be one of the single most absurdly stupid videos there could possibly be.

Lurkers, take a look for yourselves:

http://www.archive.org/details/cbs200109110831-0912

Start at about 30:50

As to your NBC and CNN versions, what do you find important and convincing about them, pray tell?

That CBS jobby do is stupid.

By the way, all of the ones you've referenced are among the ALL43 already and are not new. True, the coverage is broader and includes other aspects of the event, as I have shown to be the case with the CBS example; pointing out, as I have, that a call in witness describes "an explosion." That means, yet another NO PLANE witness was right there for all to hear.
 
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By the way, all of the ones you've referenced are among the ALL43 already and are not new. True, the coverage is broader and includes other aspects of the event, as I have shown to be the case with the CBS example; pointing out, as I have, that a call in witness describes "an explosion." That means, yet another NO PLANE witness was right there for all to hear.


the Fox coverage has a witness describe in detail how he saw from Hoboken, the 1st plane come in. go back to my post as I have added to it.

either way, we now have 3 videos showing a plane crash into the WTC.

what evidence do you have that these videos are fake?
 
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Once again I'm going to ask you this question. Yet again I'm sure it will be ignored, but I'll ask anyway.

Shouldn't a jet full of fuel explode when it crashes into a building?

You seem to think it should pass right through unscathed.

Again jam, care to answer this question or are you going to continue to ignore it?
 
Good thing I am rational, and do not make absurd claims that it would have split ear drums:

http://www.makeitlouder.com/Decibel Level Chart.txt


you may wish to direct your attention to 172 decibels you will find the plane in question a 767, and it clearly states that this decibel level is at sea level.

eardrums split or burst between 190-195 as you can see on the chart only 50% percent of the time

this took .013 seconds to find in an internet search, there is no excuse making whatsoever, it is what it is, you post a video that is mostly made up of news broadcasts, WITH VOICEOVERS, then generalize a statement that no jet can be heard is completely dishonest, shows no integrity, and shows the lengths the truth movement will go to, in an attempt to prove some inside job by the US govt and a number of other agencies, and for what???

Thank Goodness for being rational, but let me ask you this, have you bothered to contact the news networks to get the raw footage of the second tower? or how about the pilots of the NYPD choppers that were in the air?

see, the reason you don't have thousands and thousands and thousands of documented eye and earwitness testimony, is due to a few reasons.

1. the awe factor, the fact that a PLANE had struck one of the towers, everyone became a spectator, 911 calls begin, RESCUE OPERATIONS begin.
2. second strike happens RESCUE OPERATIONS increase.(every firefighter and police officer on the scene are concerned with rescuing every living soul they can, they know what happened 2 planes have struck the towers, they have the numerous 911 calls from witnesses to the tragedy.
3. building 2 collapses. public officials are concerned with getting everyone to safety that they can, planes to attack the pile begin.
4. building one collapses, these efforts increase, again keep in mind, they already know that 2 planes have struck the towers
5.as the day goes attention is turned to building 7, again expecting the collapse of this building officials concentrate on the safety of those still on the scene by setting up a barrier.
6. after all of the buildings have collapsed RESCUE OPERATIONS are again turned to the piles in the hopes of finding survivors, it wouldn't be until after these efforts are exhausted that the criminal investigation would begin. by this time many eyewitnesses have left the area.

You must also keep in mind that the skyline of NYC can be seen for miles around so from all of the expressways and thruways you have thousands upon thousands of witnesses, again thank goodness I am rational.

Sorry for the lengthy post, but needed to be said as I only have 19:41 left to post before the rational turn the forum over to the nutjobs.

I, likewise, spent next to no time on the issue of eardrum damage:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080315114342AAd2pQv

The level reported in that source does not agree with the level you report.

The larger point remains, however, no one recorded, let alone reliably referenced, a jetliner sound at <1000ft above Manhattan @ 550mph.

Thanks for your post.
 
Jamm- what evidence do you have the three videos I have shown you are fake?

who gave them the videos? when did they do it? how did they implant these three plane images into live feeds?

and why...oh why...did Fox News, the king of Neo-Con media, have their camera zoomed in too close to show a plane?????
 
the Fox coverage has a witness describe in detail how he saw from Hoboken, the 1st plane come in. go back to my post as I have added to it.

either way, we now have 3 videos showing a plane crash into the WTC.

what evidence do you have that these videos are fake?

That would be Our Jim Friedl a bozo about whom much has been said. Even if you accredit this witness from Hoboken who saw both planes and who gave the exact description of what caused the Twin Towers to self-destruct, 4 years sooner and $16million cheaper than NIST could do as and for a "probable initiation of collapse" hypothesis, you do not do the common storyline of 9/11 much good.

Jim Friedl is too good to be true. Let me repeat that: Jim Friedl is too good to be true.

I do hope you do not pin the hopes of those who wish to cling to their belief in the common storyline of 9/11 upon Jim Friedl, do you? :eye-poppi
 
I, likewise, spent next to no time on the issue of eardrum damage:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080315114342AAd2pQv

The level reported in that source does not agree with the level you report.

The larger point remains, however, no one recorded, let alone reliably referenced, a jetliner sound at <1000ft above Manhattan @ 550mph.

Thanks for your post.

And your yahoo answers does not define at what level the eardrum would rupture, it simply states the osha regulations for protecting the ear, try again.
You get an A for effort and T for nice try.
 
Look, you are an experienced poster. Cut the rhetorical crap, please. If you've got a point or two or three or howsoever many there are that YOU want to make about a particular video segment, then make it.

I am not your foil for your stupid questions. Post up your claims, please.

I am well known in these parts for not playing 20 Question, Gotcha Games.

sheesh :eye-poppi

you have suggested that the video footage is fake. I now ask you to provide evidence for your assertions.

who gave them the footage, how did they implant it into 3 different live feeds, who did the implanting, who told them to keep it quiet, when was this orchestrated.

you made the assertion..now YOU provide the evidence to back it up.

that's how JREF works. NO EVIDENCE= NO FACTS
 
I do not engage in rhetorical games. If there's something you want to claim about fuel, explosions, etc., please make your point or move on.

It's not a game. Answer the question.

Shouldn't a jet full of fuel explode when it crashes into a building? If it should, then there is no reason to find it unusual that people are describing explosions. So answer the question and quit playing games.
 
and yet another:




http://www.50hz.com/decibel.html


and this chart even includes a jet flyover at 1000ft



and again:


http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1983/1983 - 2320.html


this will show you that as technology advanced laws were in place to regulate the noise put out by the larger planes, for the protection of airport communities.

From personal experience, I work within a 3 mile radius of an airport, there are flyovers all the time, all day, you can still sit outside and hold a conversation with someone and understand at normal voice levels, despite the planes.
 
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Unless Jamm. can come up with evidence that someone gave three different networks, three different video images to implant into live feeds, who did it, when they did it, how they did it, etc....then there really is nothing more to discuss with Jamm.
 
Good God jammonius. Your gyrations and tap dancing when asked to provide evidence of your claims is getting old.

Now. Can you provide any evidence that the video provided to you that clearly shows a plane crashing into the building is FAKED??
 
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