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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Thanks Rose. My Italian's pretty bad but I tried to tidy it up slightly, hopefully someone else can do a better job.



That last sentence is pretty significant, to say the least.

Why? Amanda has no prior experience with being interviewed during a murder investigation. She doesn't hasn't been arrested/detained prior to this event. How would she know how criminals are treated?
 
Calling 6 years in the slammer for defamation said in court about two slaps on the back of the head "archaic" is not xenophobia. It's a value judgment on a policy within a judicial system, and has nothing to do with the fact that rule exists in the country of Italy. Same goes for introducing a Daily Mail article as evidence against character. And for not screening jurors for bias whatsoever. And a multitude of other things.

The fake cries of xenophobia are really hilarious. If a Canadian is against the death penalty in America, does that make him a xenophobe. By the lame standards declared on this forum, the answer to that is yes.

Stilicho, I would have to say by some of the xenophobe standards going around, that you would probably fit under this definition as well for criticizing the perjury laws in the United States the other day.

In fact, I personally happen to be against the Death Penalty, which several states still have here in the good ol' USA. Some would call this practice "archaic". So I guess I hate my country too. I'm also not a big fan the communist party in China, so I am pretty xenophobic about that country too.

etc. etc. etc.

I doubt I was among those accusing you of xenophobia. If I did then I apologise. Xenophobia is usually characterised by an abiding fear of a particular culture or ethnicity: http://www.librarything.com/work/1038293

My opinion about the defamation suit is that it is brandished in this instance as a cudgel in case Amanda has her sentence cut. It's only my opinion and I have no evidence this is why it's still being pursued so vigorously. Don't American prosecutors occasionally tack on obstruction of justice and other charges to flesh out the rap sheet?

On the other hand, I do find it peculiar that some American posters (mainly) have argued strenuously that the murder case would have been thrown out in the US. I don't know where this idea came from or how it is supported. It's as though spontaneous declarations are never made to American investigators and that lawyers are always holding the hands of anyone who's ever spoken to the police.

Maybe you haven't argued this point either but it arises from time to time.

@LondonJohn: I contend that you have no idea how you'd respond if the police were telling you that a) your boyfriend now said you weren't at his apartment all night, b) they (the police) had solid evidence placing you in the murder house at the time of the crime, c) they (the police) were telling you that you had definitely met with Lumumba, despite your denials, d) probably you'd subconsciously "blocked-out" these bad memories, so that despite your firm belief that you were at RS's house all night, you had in fact met Lumubma, gone to the house, then participated in some way in Meredith's murder.

The onus has now been removed from Raffaele or Amanda from ever telling the truth and it's instead the police who are the liars. Almost all high profile murder cases have this undercurrent of suspicion about the police. We know none of the four who were arrested were physically mistreated so now exciting new psychological maladies are invented to explain why Raffaele broke with Amanda and why she named Patrick.

Once again, we'll ask you: Where is the evidence that the police knew in advance that Amanda would not only name Patrick but also sign statements to that effect? How many of the officers present at the Questura conspired to conceal their knowledge of Patrick from the PM? Did the PM know about Patrick before the police did? How?

Amanda spent a great deal of effort explaining the unflushed toilet both personally to anyone at her college who would listen and in her 04 NOV 2007 alibi email. Why didn't she stick to her story that the unflushed toilet would lead police to the "real killer"? That clue was not dependent on anything Raffaele said and yet Amanda abandoned it to name Patrick. Why?
 
PPS What's the real truth about the "coordinated switching-off of cellphones" which the prosecution alleges took place between AK and RS on the murder night? Since the judicial panel seems to reject any notion of premeditation, why would AK/RS have needed or wanted to purposefully switch off their phones before going to the house? The intention of such switching off could, after all, only be interpreted as either a) trying to silently enter the house without fear of an incoming call's ring tone alerting anyone in the house to their presence, or b) an attempt to avoid being subsequently placed in the vicinity of the murder house through cell location tracking. And if they didn't enter the house with the intention of committing a crime, why would they have even thought of either of these things?


I use to wonder too, then Amanda herself came up with a really good reason: She didn't want Patrick to call her back into work, she wanted the night off. She actually gave two reasons at different times, that one and: She didn't want to waiste power because she was going to another town the next day with RS and wouldn't be home to charge the battery up.
 
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I doubt I was among those accusing you of xenophobia. If I did then I apologise. Xenophobia is usually characterised by an abiding fear of a particular culture or ethnicity: http://www.librarything.com/work/1038293

My opinion about the defamation suit is that it is brandished in this instance as a cudgel in case Amanda has her sentence cut. It's only my opinion and I have no evidence this is why it's still being pursued so vigorously. Don't American prosecutors occasionally tack on obstruction of justice and other charges to flesh out the rap sheet?

On the other hand, I do find it peculiar that some American posters (mainly) have argued strenuously that the murder case would have been thrown out in the US. I don't know where this idea came from or how it is supported. It's as though spontaneous declarations are never made to American investigators and that lawyers are always holding the hands of anyone who's ever spoken to the police.

Maybe you haven't argued this point either but it arises from time to time.

Hey Stilicho. Sorry for the confusion, I was only using you as an example to point out the absurdities of the claims of certain other people on here. To your credit you have not played this card, and I apologize if I left that impression.

Some seem under the impression that criticizing institutions is the same as an irrational fear of foreigners. It is not.

As far as the reason behind the defamation suit, you could be right.
 
Is that plausible? I live in a big city with a high crime rate and I've never heard of such a thing. And how often does one young woman help a man rape another young woman?

Two words: Karla. Homolka.

The case against Knox seems to boil down to the notion that this 20-year-old (at the time) coed may have said some things or behaved in ways that are different from what we think we would have done if we were accused of murder in a foreign country.

It's more than that. Eleven months of trial and testimony. Thousands of pages of evidence. None of it had to do with her snickering in court or her cartwheels in the police station. She was found guilty based on a mountain of evidence carefully presented and dutifully cross-examined by experts. She was found guilty unanimously.

Not once during her trial did her co-accused, Raffaele, stand up to make a spontaneous declaration of her innocence. Her own mother contradicted her under oath.

One person's "20-year-old coed" is another person's "20-year-old vicious and remorseless murderer".
 
@LondonJohn: I contend that you have no idea how you'd respond if the police were telling you that a) your boyfriend now said you weren't at his apartment all night, b) they (the police) had solid evidence placing you in the murder house at the time of the crime, c) they (the police) were telling you that you had definitely met with Lumumba, despite your denials, d) probably you'd subconsciously "blocked-out" these bad memories, so that despite your firm belief that you were at RS's house all night, you had in fact met Lumubma, gone to the house, then participated in some way in Meredith's murder.

The onus has now been removed from Raffaele or Amanda from ever telling the truth and it's instead the police who are the liars. Almost all high profile murder cases have this undercurrent of suspicion about the police. We know none of the four who were arrested were physically mistreated so now exciting new psychological maladies are invented to explain why Raffaele broke with Amanda and why she named Patrick.

Once again, we'll ask you: Where is the evidence that the police knew in advance that Amanda would not only name Patrick but also sign statements to that effect? How many of the officers present at the Questura conspired to conceal their knowledge of Patrick from the PM? Did the PM know about Patrick before the police did? How?

Amanda spent a great deal of effort explaining the unflushed toilet both personally to anyone at her college who would listen and in her 04 NOV 2007 alibi email. Why didn't she stick to her story that the unflushed toilet would lead police to the "real killer"? That clue was not dependent on anything Raffaele said and yet Amanda abandoned it to name Patrick. Why?

Once again, we'll ask you: Why were the stains on the pillowcase not tested for semen - and if they were semen, what was the DNA profile? And why would it have been difficult to date the stains - especially if there's additional evidence that whatever caused the stain was still wet when the bloody shoe print was made on the pillowcase?

I'm getting the hang of this straw man thing myself now..........
 
Amanda did herself no favours by pin pointing Patrick.. and placing herself there. Then the *confused* and *can't remebers*....If I was Amanda, I;d start to remember real quick..How about 6 WORDS!! " I was at Raffaele's". That's it!!!


Amanda had been saying "I was at Raffaele's" for the past several days. It had been a satisfactory response to the police during that time, but at the interrogation, it became as unsatisfactory response. This would have caused a lot of cognitive dissonance in Amanda's mind, which she would be anxious to resolve. She was not one to defy or try to correct the cops, so she probably worked very hard to allow their version of events to make sense to her.

By the way, capealadin, once I went to a state fair and watched a stage hypnotist's show. If anyone has ever seen one of these guys, you know they really work -- I mean, he got his subjects to respond to words that were essentially hidden in his fast speech in ways they could not have done had they not been hypnotized.

When he asked for volunteers from the audience, a lot of hands went up, but I noticed he picked only kids around 18-25 years old. He picked about 10 kids, so I don't think all of them could have been plants. The fact that he didn't choose any older adults made me wonder whether the 18-25 age group is particularly vulnerable to suggestion.
 
Hey Stilicho. Sorry for the confusion, I was only using you as an example to point out the absurdities of the claims of certain other people on here. To your credit you have not played this card, and I apologize if I left that impression.

Some seem under the impression that criticizing institutions is the same as an irrational fear of foreigners. It is not.

As far as the reason behind the defamation suit, you could be right.

I think you were responding to quadraginta, who wrote, "The 'primitive,' 'archaic,' 'third world' Italian judicial system has turned out to look pretty good compared to those of some of the xenophobes lambasting it."

I would add to your incisive analysis that criticizing individuals (e.g., Mignini) also is not necessarily xenophobic.
 
Here is an interesting addition to our discussion about xenophobia. From Facebook:

Posted By: Kelly Brodbeck
To: Members in Free Amanda Knox
June 9th Letter from Amanda

In her most recent letter to me Amanda has included two items that she wanted me to share with all of you. The first is a comment on Italy and the Italian people and the second is a direct message to this Cause Group.

"(Kelly) what you took from my last letter about not blaming all of Italy or the Italian government for the mistakes of a few is absolutely how I feel. It's ridiculous and unreasonable to say that Italy in general has it out for me. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I like Italy. Those who have accused me and condemned me are wrong and my conviction is unacceptable, but I would be living without hope if I couldn't believe justice could happen here in Italy. That is my hope. You can most definitely post this from me if you should like."


Straight from the source.
 
Karla Homolka is an incredibly misleading example to this case. Karla Homolka fits a classic pattern of a so-called "master/slave" relationship - where a bullying, dominating male inspires fear, compliance, sexual excitement/awakening, and both sexual and mental submission, from his (usually) female partner. When Karla Homolka met Paul Bernardo, he had already started physically and sexually abusing women. When he discovered that Karla was "under his spell", he introduced her gradually into his world of raping and assaulting women. She gained mental and sexual pleasure by helping him act out these extreme fantasies. And it was only three years into their relationship that these acts extended to murder. Almost exactly the same factors were observed in the case of Ian Brady and Myra Hindley in the UK in the 1960s.

By contrast, Amanda Knox had known Raffaele Sollecito for between two and three weeks, at the time the murder was committed. Neither of them had engaged in any prior sexual or physical attacks on people - either singly or together. And many of AK/RS's acquaintances seemed to be of the belief that if either of the two were the more "dominant" in the short relationship, it was more likely to be Knox. There was, quite simply, nowhere near enough time for AK and RS to have developed the extreme psychological depth to their relationship to make it in any way comparable to Homulka/Bernardo or Brady/Hindley.
 
Two words: Karla. Homolka.
I didn't say no woman has ever committed a terrible crime. Right now CNN is covering the sentencing of a woman who murdered her daughter's 8-year-old playmate for no conceivable reason. But the Homolka business (nearly 20 years ago) has nothing to do with Knox, starting with the fact that Homolka was a serial killer who plotted her crimes carefully and committed them with her crazy husband (who may have been the primary instigator and who claimed to have committed numerous rapes before he even met her), not someone who impulsively killed a roommate during some sex game with two men she barely knew (and Sollecito didn't know Guede at all). And if it really had occurred that way it's inconceivable that one of the three wouldn't have given up the others to the cops to try to save him/herself ("we were just drinking and those other two went crazy. I was so scared I didn't know what to do . . ."; in fact, even Homolka blamed her crimes on hubby and was believed until their videotapes turned up). At the very least, if Sollecito, the well-educated son of a doctor, had been guilty, he likely would have known better than to keep talking to the cops without a lawyer. Guede's behavior is consistent with that of someone who is guilty as sin and knows it, and Knox's and Sollecito's behaviors are consistent with those of people falsely accused who are innocent, scared, confused and coerced.
Not once during her trial did her co-accused, Raffaele, stand up to make a spontaneous declaration of her innocence.
The allegation is that Knox, Sollecito and Guede participated together. Sollecito's defense basically was that he didn't do it, he didn't know who was responsible, he wasn't there and he couldn't swear that Knox was at home with him at every minute. If he had said, "I'm sure Amanda didn't do it," the prosecution's likely response would have been "You could only know that if you were there." It would be surprising if his lawyers hadn't told him to keep his mouth shut. A "spontaneous declaration" defending Amanda could only have hurt him.
 
From the FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin Jan. 2005

Focus on Investigations
Homicide Investigative Strategies
By John B. Edwards

General Coverage
While teams of investigators address those specific focus issues, a second team should handle the general coverage issue, which comprises four areas. First, they should conduct neighborhood canvasses, which deal with people in close vicinity to others, and make observations or assessments regarding situational environmental issues in connection with proximity. Second, interviews of friends, families, and associates may determine victimology or suspectology information while such information is fresh and untainted by the direction of the investigation. Third, coworkers or employers may provide other information regarding victims and suspects. Finally, construction of definite victim/suspect timelines should outline the environment, proximity, locations, and times.

http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/2005/jan2005/jan2005.htm
http://www.fbi.gov/filelink.html?file=publications/leb/2005/jan05leb.pdf

I've never been able to understand why Guede, Lamumba and Curatolo were not identified, located, and interviewed - early in the investigation.




Maybe because real life doesn't always comply with the textbooks, and doesn't always measure up to TV show standards.

Patrick may well have been ID'd early ... as an employer. Until he was explicitly fingered by Knox there wouldn't have been any particular reason to single him out early on as a suspect. Guede wasn't a regular associate. Interviews could have easily not mentioned him in the early stages. Some witnesses are not always available or uncovered on Day One or even Day Two or Three.

Armchair quarterbacking and 20/20 hindsight is the lazy man's argument. Quoting from textbooks sounds authoritative, but means less when applied to reality. I doubt that very many investigations from the real world would fit into a neat one hour format ... with time out for commercials.

In spite of much handwaving I've seen little to suggest that this particular investigation suffered from the sort of massive blunders and evil conspiracy so loudly alleged by those who cannot contemplate the idea that Knox may actually be complicit in this crime. Or allow any such suggestion to go unchallenged by whatever means available, no matter how exaggerated. It seems more to be a few of the hairy warts of real life seized upon and magnified for the benefit of rhetoric, combined with misdirection and misrepresentation.

I think we have perhaps even made a little progress here. No one seems to be arguing anymore that Knox was convicted "all because of a cartwheel". The 30, or 40, or 50 hours of brutal interrogation has now shrunk to 4, or 3, or maybe 1:45 hours of meanie cops saying confusing stuff in a harsh manner. The "primitive", "archaic", "third world" Italian judicial system has turned out to look pretty good compared to those of some of the xenophobes lambasting it.

I await the Massei Report translation with great interest. Perhaps there may be more primary source data available there than what we have been able to uncover in these threads. Much of the disagreement of fact we have left seems to be involved in conflicts among sources of less than stellar provenance, as well as in interpretation.

I am under no delusions that it will alter the positions of those who are already adamant in their beliefs ... on either side, but for me at least it may also provide some insight into why the jury (or judge's panel if you prefer) came to the decision they did.

I have no idea where you got the notion that I think real life complies with TV shows and textbooks. I think we can agree that TV shows are by their very nature distortions of reality. Textbooks are often outdated.

I posted an excerpt from an article written by Special Agent John B. Edwards, the head of the Statesboro office of the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. I also provided links to the full article in html and pdf format so the portion I quoted coud be read in context.

The point I was trying to make is that the three persons I mentioned should have been questioned as a matter of routine.

You may be right about Guede though, because it's very possible that his name may not have came up, now that you mention it. I thought TJMK had information showing that the victim knew Guede(and maybe even well enough to allow him into the flat) - but am unable to locate it now.

As far as Curatolo is concerned, the guy lived on a bench, near the cottage. I would think that the officers who patrol the area would be very familiar with him, and ask if he'd seen or heard anything unusual that night(unless they thought he was unreliable).

The failure to contact Mr. Lumumba puzzles me the most and here is why:

A staged break-in was suspected and AK couldn't be ruled out as a suspect, so why not contact her employer? Not as a suspect, but just to ask some basic questions. Questions such as, 'when did you last see Amanda?', 'when did you last speak with Amanda?'. I think a junior member of the team or even a uniformed officer could have gone to his home or business to simply ask a few questions.

You'd be absolutely right to say hindsight gives us an advantage over the investigators, who were operating in real time. They had no way to know how enlightening an interview of Mr. Lumumba may have been.

But that was my reason for quoting the article. My understanding of the way these things go, is that as much information as possible is gathered while it's fresh and untainted. Significance can be determined later.

I hope I'm being clear. I am happy to be shown where Im mistaken.

As to the last four paragraphs of your post, I'm sure they weren't directed at me specifically, so I'll not comment, except to say that I agree with much - but not all - of what you wrote there.
 
Amanda had been saying "I was at Raffaele's" for the past several days. It had been a satisfactory response to the police during that time, but at the interrogation, it became as unsatisfactory response. This would have caused a lot of cognitive dissonance in Amanda's mind, which she would be anxious to resolve. She was not one to defy or try to correct the cops, so she probably worked very hard to allow their version of events to make sense to her.

By the way, capealadin, once I went to a state fair and watched a stage hypnotist's show. If anyone has ever seen one of these guys, you know they really work -- I mean, he got his subjects to respond to words that were essentially hidden in his fast speech in ways they could not have done had they not been hypnotized.

When he asked for volunteers from the audience, a lot of hands went up, but I noticed he picked only kids around 18-25 years old. He picked about 10 kids, so I don't think all of them could have been plants. The fact that he didn't choose any older adults made me wonder whether the 18-25 age group is particularly vulnerable to suggestion.

So...let me get this straight.

In your version, because Raffaele dropped her alibi and the Police kept asking her where she was that night, she became confused and claimed that Patrick was the murderer?

That's...quite a leap, Mary.

One doesn't simply go from: "I was at Raffaele's all night" to "It's PersonX (who just so happens to be the most convenient at the time). He's the murderer" simply because one has been called a liar in regards to his/her whereabouts.
 
I have no idea where you got the notion that I think real life complies with TV shows and textbooks. I think we can agree that TV shows are by their very nature distortions of reality. Textbooks are often outdated.

I posted an excerpt from an article written by Special Agent John B. Edwards, the head of the Statesboro office of the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. I also provided links to the full article in html and pdf format so the portion I quoted coud be read in context.

The point I was trying to make is that the three persons I mentioned should have been questioned as a matter of routine.

You may be right about Guede though, because it's very possible that his name may not have came up, now that you mention it. I thought TJMK had information showing that the victim knew Guede(and maybe even well enough to allow him into the flat) - but am unable to locate it now.

As far as Curatolo is concerned, the guy lived on a bench, near the cottage. I would think that the officers who patrol the area would be very familiar with him, and ask if he'd seen or heard anything unusual that night(unless they thought he was unreliable).

The failure to contact Mr. Lumumba puzzles me the most and here is why:

A staged break-in was suspected and AK couldn't be ruled out as a suspect, so why not contact her employer? Not as a suspect, but just to ask some basic questions. Questions such as, 'when did you last see Amanda?', 'when did you last speak with Amanda?'. I think a junior member of the team or even a uniformed officer could have gone to his home or business to simply ask a few questions.

You'd be absolutely right to say hindsight gives us an advantage over the investigators, who were operating in real time. They had no way to know how enlightening an interview of Mr. Lumumba may have been.

But that was my reason for quoting the article. My understanding of the way these things go, is that as much information as possible is gathered while it's fresh and untainted. Significance can be determined later.

I hope I'm being clear. I am happy to be shown where Im mistaken.

As to the last four paragraphs of your post, I'm sure they weren't directed at me specifically, so I'll not comment, except to say that I agree with much - but not all - of what you wrote there.

Remember that Amanda's accusation of Patrick came a mere 3 days after the discovery of the body. Sure, there were quite a few people the Police could have interviewed, and I have no doubt that they were tracking down those people - after all, they did find Guede, they did find Curatolo (technically, he came to them) - by the way, just because someone "lives" on a bench nearby doesn't mean they're necessarily a witness to a crime, and thus is not necessarily someone the Police would interview in the first 2-3 days following said crime.
 
Once again, we'll ask you: Where is the evidence that the police knew in advance that Amanda would not only name Patrick but also sign statements to that effect? How many of the officers present at the Questura conspired to conceal their knowledge of Patrick from the PM? Did the PM know about Patrick before the police did? How?

Amanda spent a great deal of effort explaining the unflushed toilet both personally to anyone at her college who would listen and in her 04 NOV 2007 alibi email. Why didn't she stick to her story that the unflushed toilet would lead police to the "real killer"? That clue was not dependent on anything Raffaele said and yet Amanda abandoned it to name Patrick. Why?
Once again, we'll ask you: Why were the stains on the pillowcase not tested for semen - and if they were semen, what was the DNA profile? And why would it have been difficult to date the stains - especially if there's additional evidence that whatever caused the stain was still wet when the bloody shoe print was made on the pillowcase?

I'm getting the hang of this straw man thing myself now..........

We have no evidence that the forensics teams did not investigate the pillowcase. In fact, we know they did since there are forensics photographs being trotted out as evidence that they didn't investigate it. Strangest thing I've ever seen.

You have erroneously drawn the conclusion that the stain is meaningful whereas it was not entered into evidence against any of the accused killers. That should be the last we hear of the Mystery of the Pillowcase Stain.

Now will you oblige me and answer my questions?

Karla Homolka is an incredibly misleading example to this case.

I didn't say no woman has ever committed a terrible crime.

Each of you are answering a question I didn't ask or answer. Have women helped men commit sexual assault and murder? Yes they have. If you don't like the example of Karla Homolka we can find another one. I can certainly understand why Amanda's supporters don't like the comparisons to Homolka or to Kelly Ellard but all three are vicious and remorseless female killers.
 
This about a man who murdered 2 people:
Roxann Loughray, who has lived next to Montgomery for 15 years, said he was "nice-enough" but a "total loner." He was not the type of person to snap and never showed signs of violence, Loughray said.
"Such a shame. Such a nice young man," said June Dempsey, who lives behind Montgomery.
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/23594485/detail.html

This man was 50 years old and had no arrest record. No one is a criminal until they commit a crime! Rudy Guede had no record of violent crime prior to the Kercher murder either.
 
Thanks Rose. My Italian's pretty bad but I tried to tidy it up slightly, hopefully someone else can do a better job.



That last sentence is pretty significant, to say the least.

Both translations I have received seem to indicate the same thing. I agree with you that the last sentence is pretty significant. Thanks.
 
Karla Homolka is an incredibly misleading example to this case. Karla Homolka fits a classic pattern of a so-called "master/slave" relationship - where a bullying, dominating male inspires fear, compliance, sexual excitement/awakening, and both sexual and mental submission, from his (usually) female partner. When Karla Homolka met Paul Bernardo, he had already started physically and sexually abusing women. When he discovered that Karla was "under his spell", he introduced her gradually into his world of raping and assaulting women. She gained mental and sexual pleasure by helping him act out these extreme fantasies. And it was only three years into their relationship that these acts extended to murder. Almost exactly the same factors were observed in the case of Ian Brady and Myra Hindley in the UK in the 1960s.

By contrast, Amanda Knox had known Raffaele Sollecito for between two and three weeks, at the time the murder was committed. Neither of them had engaged in any prior sexual or physical attacks on people - either singly or together. And many of AK/RS's acquaintances seemed to be of the belief that if either of the two were the more "dominant" in the short relationship, it was more likely to be Knox. There was, quite simply, nowhere near enough time for AK and RS to have developed the extreme psychological depth to their relationship to make it in any way comparable to Homulka/Bernardo or Brady/Hindley.

Not to mention the question was "how often" does a murder like this happen, not "has this ever happened before".

As far as Amanda and Raffaele's relationship, I think it was even less than that, one week I think.
 
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