9/11-investigator explains the Holocaust

[Loss Leader]

At some point here I feel like he argues that Jews are inferior because they're demonstrably smarter,

 

[9/11-investigator]

Yes, I did indeed try to debate with you.

Your civilized tone is rather the exception around here.

It's impossible to debate with you.

That is a remarkable thing to say in post #4220!

We are all using arguments and evidence that you already considered (and rejected) replacing it with some bizarre anti-Semitic fantasy which has gone so far that you really do appear to believe it completely.

It's like trying to convince someone on LSD that unicorns don't exist, except that you didn't even use drugs (and thus have no excuse.)

You pursue the unrealistic notion that at some point somebody is going to cave in. That's not going to happen, neither from your side nor from mine. Psychologically impossible. If I would feel that I am battling a lost cause at some point I would simply disappear. So would you. What we are doing is looking at the historic event from all sides. Forget about winning, just put forward arguments. Slowly a deeper understanding will emerge in all of us.

I know you didn't start this thread (as in actively, passively sure), but you really are bringing all of this upon yourself.

You make it sound very dramatic! This discussion is only a very small part of my life.

What's hilarious is that I saw an image on the 10 most common ways that people badly try and debate on the internet (on Cracked.com of all places). You've done all of these. I ignored them at the time in favour of trying to convince you, but that is clearly impossible, this is your religion.

I am not entirely sure how the denial that a certain historic event took place could possibly turn into a 'religion'. A religion is build on a positive belief. I am just battling your beliefs. But that's a very meager basis for a Weltanschauung.

Most of the other posters just insult you and I'm beginning to think they had the right idea all along.

I doubt that this frank admission is doing your cause any good in the eyes of a neutral passer-by. And my other opponents will certainly not thank you for it. But thanks for being honest anyway.

The only consolation is that nothing really changes here, I'm learning more and more about how to form an argument and you're still the "LAST FREE MAN"(tm). Everyone has the exact same beliefs and ideals they entered with. Everyone 'wins'.

Well as long as you are learning your time is not wasted. I am learning here every day by simply spending time on the subject.

So I guess I'll leave this thread for good now, have fun 9/11, have a life not too consumed with fear, and try to stay out of a German prison. Toodles <3

Do not worry about my non-existing fear. And regarding prisons... in times of change the prisons are the antichambres to the corridors of power.

Ask Mandela, ask Walesa, ask Havel.

 

[9/11-investigator]

.
Posted by *you*, and which you then spent several posts attempting to defend before running away.

Making it *your* lie, since your own sources contradicted you, and since they were your sources one can reasonably conclude that you were familiar with them.
.

.
As I have explained before:

So, let's break this down to make 9/11's mendacity even more apparent.

This quote makes several claims -- none of which it is *my* responsibility to do more than require 9/11 to support:

Most of Europe (which 9/11 dishonestly tried to change to the EU, and when that was pointed out tried to claim was about population numbers.)
... already criminalized doubting the Holocaust (which 9/11 attempts to conflate with Holocaust denial)
... It is a crime even to confirm that it happened but to conclude that less than 6 million Jews were murdered. (None of the laws cited by 9/11 mention specific numbers.)
.

.
Thank you, my tearing apart of your lie was very successful -- unless *you* want to make a list of the countries in *Europe* (not the EU,) another list with those laws you claim outlaw doubt (be prepared to support this claim with citation to the actual law,) and show that the latter number is at least half + 1 of the former and cite even a single law which specifically mentions numbers. I'll even accept a single conviction for which the death toll was the only issue.
.

.
Who made that initial post again?

And this is very relevant to your attempts to apologize for the crimes of the Nazi regime -- why should anyone engage in "serious discussion" with you when you insist on lying about this? Your credibility is very much at issue, especially given your history of the lie and run, move the goalposts, change the subject and then repost after a bit as if the argument had not been shredded.

I mean, you certainly should not try to pretend you are serious about discussion with habits like those...

I'm also still waiting for your apologies for your continued personal attacks
.

Compare the pretentious gibber above with the facts as brought forward by the ever vigillant CFGA:

I leave it to TSR to make a fool of himself by trying to disprove that PCR was right with his assertion. The following countries have these inexcusable laws:

Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Poland, Belgium, Austria, Switserland, Slovakia. Q.E.D.

 

[TSR]

Compare the pretentious gibber above with the facts as brought forward by the ever vigillant CFGA:

I leave it to TSR to make a fool of himself by trying to disprove that PCR was right with his assertion. The following countries have these inexcusable laws:

Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Poland, Belgium, Austria, Switserland, Slovakia. Q.E.D.

.
Okay, progress -- this is good.

9 countries.

But according to you

the EU has some 27 countries

.
We'll ignore you narrowing the question to the EU, not Europe proper.

Now, here's the question: is 9 "most of" 27?

Because that was the claim: "most of Europe."

You see, here in the real world even we accept the EU as being the entirety of Europe (thereby demonstrating an abysmal grasp of European geography on your part, 9/11) either there could be at most 17 EU countries, or the number of countries with such laws would have to be 14.

Let me know if the math is confusing you, and I will explain using smaller words.

And does a *single* one of those laws specifically mention 6 million, or has any of them been used to convict in a case were the death toll was the only question?

No?

So all of the claims in that quote are again proven false using your own sources, meaning either your claims are repeated lies (just as I have said) or that you can't do simple math nor are you able to read a map.

Which option do you prefer?

ETA: Should have know better: 9/11 hasn't even read zir own source. if zie had done, zie would have noticed *10* countries with laws explicitly outlawing denial (altho that source is wrong in more than one case): Austria, Belgium, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Slovakia, Poland, Switzerland (note the spelling, 9/11) and Luxembourg. The point still stands, however.

ETA: And Switzerland (note the spelling, 9/11) is not a member of the EU, bringing the number of *EU* countries back to 9
.

 

[Skeptic]

At some point here I feel like he argues that Jews are inferior because they're demonstrably smarter,

As I said before, these guys believe:

1). The Jews secretly control the world.
2). Might makes right.

So what's the problem? If the Jews secretly control the world, by definition they deserve to secretly control the world.

 

[Arisia]

...

Again I post this link about British veterans who basically say that they fought on the wrong side. Where is Hitler when you need him, they seem to ask.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Britain-fought-say-unknown-warriors-WWII.html

Wow, 9/11, you're so good at stretching, you must be the most flexible guy in the anti-Semite compound.

 

[9/11-investigator]

So what's the problem? If the Jews secretly control the world, by definition they deserve to secretly control the world.

So if I secretly rob a bank than I deserve the loot, since it was... secret?!

Fascinating logic. Skeptic cautiously tries to make a case that the de facto rule by the Jews over at least Anglosphere (which he does not explicitly deny, and that would be difficult after Mearsheimer and Walt) has a moral foundation.

And of course, might makes right. Not because the local 'neo-nazi' says so but because it is a fact. However history teaches us that the more obvious J-power becomes it's end usualy is near. Remember: the grass gets cut when it is at its highest. J-power is not going to survice 9/11 (*), H-word- and bolshevism-revisionism and the internet.

Here a highup within the US military-industrial complex mentions Israel as a candidate perp.

 

[9/11-investigator]

.
Okay, progress -- this is good.

9 countries.

But according to you

.
We'll ignore you narrowing the question to the EU, not Europe proper.

Now, here's the question: is 9 "most of" 27?

Because that was the claim: "most of Europe."

I should have known that TSR insists on making a fool of himself. In a futile attempt to win this side-issue he ignores that the countries mentioned are the largest ones in the EU.

TSR: of course Germany has 82 million inhabitants, and Liechenstein only 28,000 and Andorra 17,592. But you have 1 country and I have 2. I won. Lalalalalala...

This is the 'level' I have to deal with. Pathetic.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Wow, 9/11, you're so good at stretching, you must be the most flexible guy in the anti-Semite compound.

I hope you had as much fun as I did to see the Aussies Von Schlieffen-ized and most of all the performance of Robert Green, the 'keeper' of Britain. Is he Jewish? I mean, Britain is notorious for it's fifth colunm working day and night for American interests at the cost of the locals (Land-lease act). OK, just kidding.

Before WW2 most members of the British establishment (like Balfour) were 'anti-semites'... anti-semites as in understanding what these folks were up to.

Back to the H-word...

A lot of my opponents quoted earlier in thread parts of the Goebbels diary to prove that the H-word was not an American-Soviet invention originating from the Nuremberg showtrial, but you see, these evil Nazis really did it. Honest.

Here some new material for future reference for myself to be elaborated upon:

http://www.inconvenienthistory.com/archive/2010/volume_2/number_1/goebbels_on_the_jews.php
http://www.inconvenienthistory.com/archive/2010/volume_2/number_2/goebbels_on_the_jews_2.php
Codoh thread "The Goebbels diary: a forgery?"

When Goebbels eventually would be eliminated as a 'witness' for the H-word then nothing remains as proof that the highest Nazi's were involved and then what remains are testimonies from the showtrial.

 

[TSR]

I should have known that TSR insists on making a fool of himself. In a futile attempt to win this side-issue he ignores that the countries mentioned are the largest ones in the EU.

TSR: of course Germany has 82 million inhabitants, and Liechenstein only 28,000 and Andorra 17,592. But you have 1 country and I have 2. I won. Lalalalalala...

This is the 'level' I have to deal with. Pathetic.

/
Now, all you have to do is show that the original quote referred to population.

Or that I referred to Liechtenstein or Andorra. You have 2 ... what?

Do you really think no one notices your complete lack of honesty in this matter?

Pathetic, indeed.
/

 

[TSR]

When Goebbels eventually would fall as a 'witness' of the H-word then nothing remains as proof that the highest Nazi's were involved and then what remains are testimonies from the showtrial.

,
Calm down, wipe the spittle off of your monitor, and try again in understandable English this time....
,

 

[9/11-investigator]

,
Calm down, wipe the spittle off of your monitor, and try again in understandable English this time....
,

I think everybody understands, even you. Nevertheless, to make it easy for you here it is in Hebrew:

כאשר גבלס בסופו של דבר ייפול כמו "העד" של המילה H-ואז לא נותר כהוכחה לכך הגבוה ביותר של הנאצים היו מעורבים ואז מה שנשאר הם עדויות

P.S. I like it when TSR gets angry, it means he is cornered and starts to make silly mistakes like the ones regarding the anti-denial laws.

 

[carlitos]

Using google translate for English to Hebrew ... not recommended.

TSR, here's a list of the 50 or so countries in Europe, just for reference.

*Albania
*Andorra
*Armenia*
*Austria
*Azerbaijan*
*Belarus
*Belgium
*Bosnia and Herzegovina
*Bulgaria
*Croatia
*Cyprus*
*Czech Republic
*Denmark
*Estonia
*Finland
*France*
*Georgia*
*Germany
*Greece
*Hungary
*Iceland
*Ireland
*Italy
*Kazakhstan*
*Latvia
*Liechtenstein
*Lithuania
*Luxembourg
*Republic of Macedonia
*Malta
*Moldova*
*Monaco
*Montenegro
*Netherlands*
*Norway
*Poland
*Portugal
*Romania
*Russia
*San Marino
*Serbia
*Slovakia
*Slovenia
*Spain
*Sweden
*Switzerland
*Turkey*
*Ukraine
*United Kingdom
*Vatican City

 

[9/11-investigator]

Using google translate for English to Hebrew ... not recommended.

TSR, here's a list of the 50 or so countries in Europe, just for reference.

*Armenia*
*Azerbaijan*
*Belarus
*Cyprus*
*Georgia*
*Kazakhstan*
*Russia
*Turkey*
*Ukraine

We already knew that Anglo's suck when it comes to geography (and soccer).
But now we have it official.

Does Europe Have a Phone Number?

In the 1970s, Henry Kissinger lamented: ?When I want to call Europe, I cannot find a phone number.? Since then the institutional momentum of the European Union (EU) has increased considerably.

Translation: the cold war really was a mistake. Russia was part of Europe all the time but the Anglo's never realized it. Tough luck.

OMG, why am I wasting time with these kiddo's? Next there are going to claim that H-word happened.

People outside Anglosphere (the leak of European Civilization) know that Samuel Huntington was right in his definition of the boundaries of European Civilization ('Europe').

The list from neo-bolshevik carlitos reflects the recipe of destruction these wannabee revolutionaries have in store for us. It's a political program.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

"tries to explain the Holocaust away poorly"?

Sort of. I'm personally in favor of changing the title to something like "9/11-investigator distorts the Holocaust", but I don't know if an actual title rewrite would get accepted. Regardless of how accurate it is.

Maybe we can talk the Mod team into putting "explains" in scare quotes.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Sort of. I'm personally in favor of changing the title to something like "9/11-investigator distorts the Holocaust", but I don't know if an actual title rewrite would get accepted. Regardless of how accurate it is.

Maybe we can talk the Mod team into putting "explains" in scare quotes.

The title was chosen by dtugg, I never offered to 'explain' the holocaust, just that I was not convinced (I am now even less convinced). I would have preferred a more neutral title like:

"Holocaust discussion thread"

or

"There was no holocaust"

or

"There was a holocaust, the ADL said so"

or

"How the holocaust was done"

 

[Naddig74]

My position on the bunnycaust is that I will believe that it happened if somebody can demonstrate it to me that it happened.

In Europe we hold the view that somebody is innocent until proven guilty very unlike jungles like the US (jungle, because the dudalbs, the dtuggs, the parkys and the finewines are in charge) where the rule is: 'listen pall, we're going to throw you in jail for 4 years. However, if you confess being guilty we'll reduce your sentence to 2 years' ('fleabargain').

So here is my request to the local Israel-Lobby here on this forum (dudalb, dtugg, parky, finewine and a few hundred more): demonstrate to me that 6 million people were gassed in WW2 under the Nazis.


Wait, I'll make it easy for you: prove that only one person was gassed.

Success (you may use a calculator for this exercise).

Apologies if anyone already made this point, it seems obvious, but I can't bear to wade through umpteen thousand posts before I spend my fourpen'orth.

If you hate the jews and think the nazis were so great, why do you deny the holocaust?

Surely, by your twisted ideology, the holocaust was a victory and you should be trumpetting it from the rooftops?

ETA: I feel dirty just saying it. I'm going for a shower.

 

[BadBoy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Holocaust_denial#Use_of_gas_chambers

Argument: Nazis did not use gas chambers to mass murder Jews. Small chambers did exist for delousing and Zyklon-B was used in this process.

Detail of a photograph taken at Auschwitz between February 9 and 11, 1943, showing the gas chamber at Crematorium Complex II, then under construction. Some of the apertures through which Zyklon B was inserted into the gas chamber are visible.

There have been claims by Holocaust deniers that the gas chambers which mainstream historians believe were for the massacre of civilians never existed, but rather that the structures identified as gas chambers actually served other purposes. These other purposes include delousing and disinfection. A similar argument is sometimes used that claims gas was not used to murder Jews and other victims, and that many gas chambers were also built after the war just for show. A document advancing this theory is the Leuchter report by Fred A. Leuchter, a paper stating that only traces of cyanide were found when he examined samples taken from one of the Auschwitz gas chambers in 1988. This is often cited as evidence that gas was not used in the chambers, as no trace amounts remain. Despite the difficulty of finding traces of this material 50 years later, in February, 1990, Professor Jan Markiewicz, Director of the Institute of Forensic Research in Kraków, redid the analysis.[32] Markiewicz and his team used microdiffusion techniques to test for cyanide in samples from the suspected gas chambers, from delousing chambers, and from control areas elsewhere within Auschwitz. The control samples tested negative, while cyanide residue was found in high concentrations in the delousing chambers, and lower concentrations in the homicidal gas chambers. This is consistent with the amounts required to kill lice and humans.[33]

The search for cyanide in the bricks of buildings said to be gas chambers was important, because the pesticide Zyklon B would generate such a residue. This was the gas most often cited as the instrument of death for prisoners in the gas chambers, supported by both testimony and evidence collected of Nazi policy.

Another claim made by Holocaust deniers is that there were no vents in the gas chambers through which Zyklon B could be inserted.[34] The BBC offers a response showing that this requires disregard of much documentation:

Deniers have said for years that physical evidence is lacking because they have seen no holes in the roof of the Birkenau gas chamber where the Zyklon was poured in. (In some of the gas chambers the Zyklon B was poured in through the roof, while in others it was thrown in through the windows.) The roof was dynamited at war's end, and today lies broken in pieces, but three of the four original holes were positively identified in a recent paper. Their location in the concrete matches with eyewitness testimony, aerial photos from 1944, and a ground photo from 1943. The physical evidence shows unmistakably that the Zyklon holes were cast into the concrete when the building was constructed.[35]

Leuchter's comment that the camp was "untouched" is dismissed as nonsense by Holocaust scholar Robert Jan van Pelt, who explains that the absence of most of the would-be rubble from the crematoria is because the local Polish population returning to the area after the war rebuilt farmhouses to the west with bricks salvaged from rubble in the camp area including from the Birkenau crematoria.[36] Near those crematoria is a pile of broken bricks thrown aside in the search for usable intact bricks.

Another piece of evidence Holocaust deniers frequently question is what happened to the ash after the bodies were cremated. The amount of ash produced in the cremation of a person is about a shoebox full, if done in a proper crematorium. However, eyewitness testomonies documented by Hilberg's The Destruction of the European Jews describe the burning process used in Treblinka, Sobibor, and Belzec to have carried out in multiple open-air grills where stacks of bodies were burned on top of metal bars. These grills were operated by burning piles of wood underneath. It has been questioned by Holocaust deniers[37] if it would have been possible to burn hundreds of thousands of corpses using the method as documented by Hilberg, especially when the low efficiency of such burning process, the high amounts of wood required and the often windy weather conditions of the camps are taken into account.

Cremation in the open at the Reinhard death camps (Treblinka, Sobibor & Belzec)was discussed at Nuremberg on the 7th April 1946 by Georg Konrad Morgen, SS judge and lawyer who investigated crimes committed in Nazi concentration camps. He stated: "The whole thing was like an assembly line. At the last stop they reached a big room, and were told that this was the bath. When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let into the room. As soon as death taken place in, the ventilators were started. When the air was breathable, the doors were opened, and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special process which Wirth had invented, they were burned in the open air without the use of fuel." http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-20/tgmwc-20-197-10.shtml

Aerial photographs of Auschwitz indicate that what appears to be ash produced in Auschwitz was piled into the nearby river and marsh, and there is well-documented evidence that other ash was used as fertilizer in nearby fields. Photographs of Treblinka taken by the camp commandant show what looks to be ash piles being distributed by steam shovels.[citation needed]

Another argument used by Holocaust deniers is that testimony on the gas chambers is unreliable. The Institute for Historical Review is one of the organizations which hold this assertion. In the words of the IHR:

"Hoss [Hoess] said in his confession that his men would smoke cigarettes as they pulled the dead Jews out of the gas chambers ten minutes after gassing. Isn't Zyklon-B explosive? Highly so. The Hoss confession is obviously false."

The Nizkor Project and other sources have pointed out that the minimal concentration of Zyklon-B to be explosive is 56,000 parts per million, while the amount used to kill a human is 300 parts per million, as is evidenced in "The Merck Index" and the "CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics". In fact, the Nazi's own documentation stated "Danger of explosion: 75 grams of HCN in 1 cubic meter of air. Normal application approx. 8-10 grams per cubic meter, therefore not explosive." (Nuremberg document NI-9912) However, whether the Nazis who applied the Zyklon-B followed this guideline or not is uncertain.

The Institute for Historical Review publicly offered a reward of $50,000 for verifiable "proof that gas chambers for the purpose of killing human beings existed at or in Auschwitz." Mel Mermelstein, a survivor of Auschwitz, submitted his own testimony as proof but it was ignored. He then sued IHR in the United States and the case was subsequently settled for $50,000, plus $40,000 in damages for personal suffering. The court declared the statement that "that Jews were gassed to death at the Auschwitz Concentration Camp in Poland during the summer of 1944" was a fact.[38]

All I need to know 9/11.

 

[9/11-investigator]

If you hate the jews and think the nazis were so great, why do you deny the holocaust?

I never said that 'I hated the Jews' (in fact I quit like Parky76 or Trojan, TSR less so) nor that 'the Nazi's were so great'. In fact you could argue that I am busy cleaning up the mess they helped creating.

I have said many times before: I am fighting the H-word story because it is being used to wreck my society. I could not care less about putting Nazi's on a pedestal. I care a lot though about getting you hypocrites from your pedestal.

 

[BadBoy]

Sort of. I'm personally in favor of changing the title to something like "9/11-investigator distorts the Holocaust", but I don't know if an actual title rewrite would get accepted. Regardless of how accurate it is.

Maybe we can talk the Mod team into putting "explains" in scare quotes.

How about, "Another loon tries to distort the holocaust"