• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

Status
Not open for further replies.
Again there are interesting parallels in the eye of the beholder.

There was no "all night interrogation" of Knox. There was no "polygraph test". There was no "alcoholic (or any other kind of) blackout". There was no induction "to speculate about how she might have committed the crime". There was no suggestion that Lumumba committed the crime.

Apart from all of that and the signed statement, it is just the same
 
I stumbled across this story about a man named Gary Gauger whose conviction and later exoneration have some interesting parallels to what is alleged by the Knox defense team...[/I]


More on false confessions:
http://www.nacdl.org/public.nsf/01c...4a6e9aa597092057052573ed0056ffa3?OpenDocument

And about how homicide detectives work (a relevant quote: " . . . The difference between the third degree and psychological interrogation is akin to the difference between getting mugged and getting scammed . . ."):
http://www.just-say-know.com/articles/misc/silent.html
 
This only works against Knox if she knew that Lumumba was innocent, which would only be the case if she were guilty herself. But if she was innocent, and the cops aggressively said, "Who could have done this? Who do you know? Who sent you a message?," she would have given them the name they wanted. They might even have convinced her that Lumumba did do it. She might have believed that the cops knew more than she did. If she was innocent, she wouldn't have been at the crime scene and could not have known that Lumumba didn't do it. If she was guilty, it would have made more sense for her to blame someone else that she knew was there, most likely Guede, or maybe make up a story about a mysterious stranger. The fact that she accused a person who could not have been there might reasonably be interpreted to mean that she wasn't there herself.

Yes, but she didn't just say "well, I got the message from Patrick. I suppose he could have done it."

She said: "It's him. It's Patrick. He did it. He's a bad man." Those are her words.

(Incidentally, this is the part of her testimony I was referring to previously.)


She readily admitted that the Police were asking her repeatedly to remember to whom she had sent the text. When she responded with "I don't remember", I don't find it illogical for the Police to say "Remember." And then after repeated "I don't remember" and "I don't know" responses, to ask whom she was protecting that she was stonewalling. That is not intense interrogation techniques. That's, really, pretty standard. It's the same thing a parent would do when asking their kid who stole the cookies from the cookie jar and the kid repeatedly responds with those same answers.


I mean, to believe this was a coerced accusation (confession only by accident) means we must believe she became distraught/stressed because the Police asked her repeated questions because they didn't believe her when she claimed to not know who the message was sent to. That it was innocent of her to "not be able to remember" to whom she had sent the text, only to not just remember to whom she had sent the text, but to wrongly actually finger the recipient. That smacks of Amanda looking for an "out". Once she'd taken the step toward the out, she had to come up with a good reason to know it was Patrick. Maybe her story was suggested by the Police - but she sure didn't fight their story, tell them it was wrong. It isn't so hard to believe that she made the accusation trying to shift the blame, only to find herself needing a narrative for how she knew - so she let the Police write the narrative themselves.


However the narrative was reached, it is beside the point that Amanda, out of the blue, blamed Patrick. There is no other way to see this based on her own testimony.
 
No more talk, please, that the police "barely had time to set up the chairs" in the interview room before AK broke down. This little phrase seems to have become something of a mantra, but it's completely misleading.

It's now (I believe) fairly well-established that AK was summoned back into an interview room by around 00.30 on the 6th at the latest. This gives at least one hour and 15 minutes of interrogation leading up to AK's "confession/allegation" at 01.45. Even if we generously assume 15 minutes of preamble, there still remains one hour of time during which it would be perfectly possible for the police to ratchet up the pressure. And one hour would be much more than ample.
 
[Snip]

The obvious question, assuming Amanda is right about any of what she said, is why she became scared, traumatised, or confused. She'd talked to the cops several times without experiencing any difficulties. She had gone to the station that night with Raffaele. She was variously busying herself doing homework by the elevator or turning cartwheels. Yet a short time later she was too scared, traumatised, and confused to think straight.

What happened in the interim? ... [Snip].

Well, for starters, the police cuffed her on the back of the head and put her in their pressure cooker.

Is that Ottawa in your avatar? Look, the Mounties have made corruption and brutality a way of life. What hope could the Italians have?
 
I am sorry, but I do not understand your dilemma.

A 20-year old student of Washington University, educated in a highly exclusive Jesuit preparatory school, is not able to answer the simple question:

Whom did you send this message?
What about saying: ah,wait a minute, yes, I sent it to Patrick, he is the owner of the pub, where I work sometimes a week. He sent me a SMS that I didn't need to go to work on the evening of the 1st November - and this was my answer.

The police would have checked this and found it true.
End of story.
 
I don't know. Do you? Cites?

I think Curatolo was probably advised by the prosecution that mentioning "witches' costumes" would give the defense a very easy way to attack his testimony, and that perhaps he should just quietly drop all mention of the witches when he testified in court. Which he did.

And funnily enough no, I don't have a link to the interview between Curatolo and the prosecution where this was discussed.
 
I stumbled across this story about a man named Gary Gauger whose conviction and later exoneration have some interesting parallels to what is alleged by the Knox defense team. There is more about the story provided in the link, the bolded parts are by me. It's interesting that the false confession was not the only factor in deciding his guilt. The scenario which led to his conviction was also backed by forensic evidence placing him at the scene (hairs), and the pathologist who performed the autopsies. During the interrogation, the confession was elicited via the police introducing a hypothetical scenario and tricking the victim with false evidence of his guilt.

http://www.thejusticeproject.org/profiles/gary-gauger/

In January of 1994, Gary Gauger of McHenry County, Illinois was wrongfully sentenced to death for the murder of his parents. Despite an exhaustive search, no physical evidence was found linking Gauger to the crime. After an all-night interrogation, Gauger made statements that police and prosecutors claimed constituted a confession. He was sentenced to die based only on an unrecorded testimony he denied making. In March of 1996, Gauger was freed on appeal because of trial improprieties. The true murderer of his parents was discovered several years after Gauger’s case was reversed and remanded.

Gauger was indicted on May 5, 1993, on two counts of murder. He denied that he had confessed, claiming he had made the statements only hypothetically after his interrogators persuaded him it was possible he had committed the double murder during an alcoholic blackout. The statements were not electronically recorded, and deputies made no contemporaneous recording of them.

At a hearing on a pretrial motion to suppress the alleged confession, Gary testified that deputies had induced him to speculate about how he might have committed the crime. He said they accomplished this by telling him that he had failed a polygraph examination and that clothes drenched in his parents’ blood had been found in his room. In fact, the polygraph had been inconclusive and there were no blood-drenched clothes.

That is a great example. Thank you.
 
If Amanda bought the police's version that she had repressed the incident, she may have assumed that they were assuming it had been traumatic for her, since that's usually the explanation for repressed memories. In other words, she would be thinking that the police believed Amanda was a victim of Patrick, too -- that maybe he had forced her to hook him up with Meredith, and forced her to cower in the kitchen while something horrible was going on in the bedroom.

The police may very well have given Amanda the impression -- or she may have come to the conclusion via her own thought processes -- that they were trying to help her get at her "own truth," as well as the truth about the crime, and that they would support her afterward for what she had gone through in helping them.

High school and college kids are oriented toward thinking that way, what with all the counseling, retreats, self-exploration exercises and so on their teachers require of them.

Yes, that's a very good point. I think it's at least partly true: there seems to have been a classic good cop/bad cop thing going on, with the more aggressive officers telling Amanda she could be locked up for 30 years and would never see her family again, while the more sympathetic ones (in this case, the interpreter, who Amanda might reasonably assume to be neutral) told her that maybe she was just traumatized and had blanked out memories of being present at the scene. Given what the first lot of officers were telling her, though, I'm not sure she would have just assumed that she'd be able to go home at the end of it, although I certainly don't think she thought she'd be charged with murder.

My feeling is that she was probably so caught up in the situation itself, the possibility that she really had repressed memories of being present at a murder and the fear at being told she wouldn't see her family again, that she probably wasn't rationally thinking through the consequences of what would happen afterwards at all. The idea that she would admit to being present at the murder and accuse Patrick of doing it as some kind of rational tactic which would allow her to go home more quickly, as a few other posters seem to have been suggesting, does seem a bit ludicrous though.
 
You're likely correct about some of this. It was Amanda's fault that Patrick was arrested.

If Amanda was coerced into making the statement, do you still believe it was her fault that Patrick was arrested? In other words, do you hold the maker of a coerced confession responsible for their statement, or the police?
 
No more talk, please, that the police "barely had time to set up the chairs" in the interview room before AK broke down. This little phrase seems to have become something of a mantra, but it's completely misleading.

It's now (I believe) fairly well-established that AK was summoned back into an interview room by around 00.30 on the 6th at the latest. This gives at least one hour and 15 minutes of interrogation leading up to AK's "confession/allegation" at 01.45. Even if we generously assume 15 minutes of preamble, there still remains one hour of time during which it would be perfectly possible for the police to ratchet up the pressure. And one hour would be much more than ample.

The pressure from being asked to remember to whom she had sent an innocent text message?

It's been suggested before (and on this very page even) that Amanda would have completely defused that line of questioning by telling the truth. The fact that she lied to accuse Patrick cannot be excused by accusing the Police of coercing Amanda into doing so.


The correct response to the question is:

"That's Patrick. He told me I didn't have to work, so I told him I would talk to him later".

NOT:

"I don't remember."..."I don't know"..."It's him. He did it. He's a bad man."


One is the truth and when asked the first time about the text would have moved the interrogation into different territory. The other is a stalling technique turned into a shift-the-heat move.
 
Yes, but she didn't just say "well, I got the message from Patrick. I suppose he could have done it."

She said: "It's him. It's Patrick. He did it. He's a bad man." Those are her words.

(Incidentally, this is the part of her testimony I was referring to previously.)

Except that those aren't actually her words, are they? Those are the words of a police officer who said that he or she was just having a casual conversation with Amanda in the waiting room and showed her the text message from Patrick, following which Amanda spontaneously burst forth with "It's him. It's Patrick. He did it. He's a bad man".

In my view this is probably the strongest evidence we have that the police were quite prepared to lie about what happened that night. Does anyone really believe this is how it happened? I mean, really?

I mean, to believe this was a coerced accusation (confession only by accident) means we must believe she became distraught/stressed because the Police asked her repeated questions because they didn't believe her when she claimed to not know who the message was sent to. That it was innocent of her to "not be able to remember" to whom she had sent the text, only to not just remember to whom she had sent the text, but to wrongly actually finger the recipient. That smacks of Amanda looking for an "out".

Where do you get the impression Amanda didn't remember who she sent the message to? I didn't notice anything in her testimony that would suggest that. Also, why would she need an "out", when the text message was completely innocent and the police were the ones to misinterpret it...?

(I think I'd also take issue with your description of a coerced confession as a 'confession only by accident'. There's nothing 'accidental' about a confession coerced by the police).

However the narrative was reached, it is beside the point that Amanda, out of the blue, blamed Patrick. There is no other way to see this based on her own testimony.

If we're basing it on her own testimony, it's a classic coerced confession. I thought the issue was that people didn't believe what she said, not that what she said didn't indicate that the confession was coerced.
 
No more talk, please, that the police "barely had time to set up the chairs" in the interview room before AK broke down. This little phrase seems to have become something of a mantra, but it's completely misleading.

It's now (I believe) fairly well-established that AK was summoned back into an interview room by around 00.30 on the 6th at the latest. This gives at least one hour and 15 minutes of interrogation leading up to AK's "confession/allegation" at 01.45. Even if we generously assume 15 minutes of preamble, there still remains one hour of time during which it would be perfectly possible for the police to ratchet up the pressure. And one hour would be much more than ample.

No need for the police to put up any pressure - Ms. Knox had only to answer the questions in simple, and clear sentences.
 
no house arrest

In turning down Amanda Knox’s request for house arrest, Matteini wrote on 16 May, “Your family lives in the United States, so it would be extremely easy for you to leave the country. The fact that you did not do so before you were arrested is totally irrelevant. We must remind you your arrest was made very early, and was effected purposely before the arrival of your mother in order to avoid just such a possibility.” (Dempsey, pp. 253-254)

What does this mean?
 
If Amanda was coerced into making the statement, do you still believe it was her fault that Patrick was arrested? In other words, do you hold the maker of a coerced confession responsible for their statement, or the police?

I see no reason to believe Knox was coerced in any way. I would like those who take that view to explain what aspect they believe to be coercive in this interview.

I will lay out what we seem to know and maybe some can tell me where we differ:

1. Knox went to the police station of her own free will because she wished to support RS; or because she was afraid to be alone. Or both. This is on the basis of her own statements.

2. While she was waiting she was asked some questions in the waiting area and she did some homework. There is no reason to believe that the atmosphere was oppressive in any way. She then did some cartwheels and she got a row for that. That does not seem surprising to me in the circumstances at all.All of that is based on her own words and on the testimony from some of the police officers.

3. Sometime around midnight they took her into an interview room and they asked her some of the same questions they had asked her before. Given that she was there, and that some officers were presumably free to do that, I can see nothing at all odd about that: they wanted to interview her again in any case, I imagine (and indeed the information that Giobbi wanted to interview the two together confirms that: they did not follow his instruction, clearly, and a separate interview still did not meet his wishes: but if they had further questions or points of clarification I see nothing wrong with what they did). In fact it is possible that the delay was due to waiting for the interpreter, though I do not know if that is the case.

4. During that interview the police who were conducting it were informed that RS no longer supported her alibi. That is a significant thing and it seems to me that this would change the tone of the questioning anywhere in the world. But it does not mean that they assumed she had committed murder. Just that they would want an account of where she was and what she was doing.

5. Knox denied she had gone out. Now of course RS could have been lying. They would wish to test that. It is not surprising if they did not accept her denial at face value, but were rather inclined to push the issue

6. They found the text. They misunderstood it because in Italian it means that she was making a definite arrangement to meet someone on the night of the murder. Yet when they asked her who the text was sent to she said she could not remember. Would you, as a police officer, readily believe that? I do not think so. I think you would believe she was being obstructive in those circumstances. I think at the very least you would push it.

7. The police did not suggest Patrick's name to her, for they did not know who the text was addressed to. This is also in Knox's testimony. I am perfectly comfortable with the idea that they insisted she tell them who she sent it to, and that they told her she was stupid or a liar when she said she did not remember. I cannot see that as brutal: it seems perfectly normal to me. I think it is perfectly possible that at that point they believed she knew more than she was saying: and even that she may have been protecting someone and may have been afraid of that person. This is in line with what Knox says they said. It would have been scary, and it would have been uncomfortable: I do not think that surprising during an interview where the police have reason to believe you are not cooperating. I think it is perfectly possible they were frustrated, and that the basis if that frustration was a perception that she was putting herself and others at risk through fear. Again we were not there so we cannot know: but nothing in Knox's testimony is at odds with that

8. I am prepared to accept that she was tapped on the head twice, as she said. That should not have happened but it is not police brutality. As she said: she was not hurt; though she was scared. If she was innocent she would have been scared because RS was telling lies: and because the police were not accepting whatever she said, as they did in previous interviews (again from her own testimony). Does that really strike other people as unusual? Or apt to produce a false confession? As coercive? Is it really true that the police should always accept every statement at face value? That they should not challenge very robustly on occasion?

I am not of that persuasion. I will say this though: I have challenged what I thought to be lies very robustly at times in the course of my work. I am not someone who shouts at folk: but they sometimes say I was shouting. The direct accusation of a lie is an aggressive act which people do not actually experience very often: it is quite hard to do it actually. And because it is aggressive people experience it as such: and sometimes that is remembered and expressed as shouting etc.

Of course they may well have been shouting at her: I remember a piece by an Italian reporter living in London which I heard on the radio some time ago. He recounted a story. He said that he had parked his car and someone else had blocked him in (or perhaps bumped his car by parking too close- I cant remember the details and it does not matter). He said that he wrote a stiff note and left it under the other car's windscreen wiper. And when he got home he thought about that and decided he had to go home because he was losing his identity: a stiff note is just not the italian way, he felt. It is a funny story but it serves to illustrate that there may be some cultural differences in what is acceptable. In the same vein there is an advert on tv for a site which helps you negotiate insurance: it plays on the same stereotypes of UK incapacity to be robust in haggling and makes much the same point.

Such a difference, if it exists, does not show that she did not feel the approach was coercive: a difference like that would be hard on her even if it was perfectly acceptable within the Italian culture. But even recognising that, this is not unheard of in America: I have seen such interviews portrayed in those SVU type programmes, for example. We know that Knox watched those types of things. So it would not have been a complete shock. And this did not go on for very long at all in the scheme of things.

9. What happened then showed the police were right: she did know who she sent the text to and she told them. But she also accused the recipient of murder. I think that may have been quite a surprise. But whether or no, what do people expect the police to do next? What I expect is for them to ask her detailed questions about what happened, and what she saw. And once they had her account down on paper, and signed, to formally make her a suspect and end the questioning: and go and arrest Lumumba. But if that is not what you expect what should they have done?

In short I do not see anything at all odd or coercive about this: like others I cannot see there was anything like sufficient pressure to lead her to accuse an innocent man. As to the idea that she accepted the possibility of repressed memory in the space of this interview: I think that is frankly ridiculous
 
I think I agree with you with respect to Amanda, Mary. She comes across as naive and very open. One of the risk factors for making a false confession is a high trust in authority, and it's very clear from Amanda's e-mail that this is a feature of her personality .......

Coincidentally, I was struck the expression on Amanda's face in this picture;

mmxuo4.jpg


I would say it is "open", which I believe is also how a psychologist would describe it. Very difficult or affect or fake.
 
I see no reason to believe Knox was coerced in any way.

8. I am prepared to accept that she was tapped on the head twice, as she said. That should not have happened but it is not police brutality. As she said: she was not hurt; though she was scared. If she was innocent she would have been scared because RS was telling lies: and because the police were not accepting whatever she said, as they did in previous interviews (again from her own testimony). Does that really strike other people as unusual?

Infact, in her reenactment for the jury, she hit herself (taking the part of the chestnut haired policewoman) and explained how she looked behind. When she dramatized this for the court you could see she simply had a pissed off look on her face. She actually showed everyone she was more mad than scared or hurt.
 
The pressure from being asked to remember to whom she had sent an innocent text message?

It's been suggested before (and on this very page even) that Amanda would have completely defused that line of questioning by telling the truth. The fact that she lied to accuse Patrick cannot be excused by accusing the Police of coercing Amanda into doing so.


The correct response to the question is:

"That's Patrick. He told me I didn't have to work, so I told him I would talk to him later".

NOT:

"I don't remember."..."I don't know"..."It's him. He did it. He's a bad man."


One is the truth and when asked the first time about the text would have moved the interrogation into different territory. The other is a stalling technique turned into a shift-the-heat move.

Errrrrr....once again, I'm being "replied" to on a completely different subject to the one that I was actually talking about. The term "straw man" is becoming a huge cliche on this thread, but is certainly well-deserved here. Very strange.

In my post that you quote in your reply, I was addressing the false notion that the police "barely had time to set up the chairs" by the time AK "blurted" out her false confession/accusation. I was arguing that, instead, the known facts indicated that the police in fact had plenty of time to interrogate AK in some depth. I was not arguing whatsoever in this post as to what the nature of that interrogation might have been. I was merely seeking to show that there was more than enough time for certain things to have taken place. And I was therefore seeking a removal of the "barely time to set up the chairs" mantra - which is clearly intended to imply that there was no time for the police to put pressure on AK, even if they'd wanted to.
 
Except that those aren't actually her words, are they?

We do not know because the witness statement she signed is not available to us

Those are the words of a police officer who said that he or she was just having a casual conversation with Amanda in the waiting room and showed her the text message from Patrick, following which Amanda spontaneously burst forth with "It's him. It's Patrick. He did it. He's a bad man".

No that has never been claimed so far as I know. The text came up in the interview room after RS changed his story. The context was nothing like you describe. I know that it has previously been alleged that those who do not believe the interview was coercive are thereby saying it was not robust: and maybe some do believe that. But I don't and I do not think most do. I think it was a perfectly normal tough police questioning because they had reason to believe she was hiding something.

In my view this is probably the strongest evidence we have that the police were quite prepared to lie about what happened that night. Does anyone really believe this is how it happened? I mean, really?

No. Nobody has ever said that so far as I know: though variations on it have been attributed to those who believe her guilty quite often. If anyone believes the version you have just put forward I have missed it

Where do you get the impression Amanda didn't remember who she sent the message to? I didn't notice anything in her testimony that would suggest that.

I suggest you read it again

Also, why would she need an "out", when the text message was completely innocent and the police were the ones to misinterpret it...?

Good question: why did she not just explain it instead of all the dancing about? Why did she accuse Patrick? I can see no excuse for that whatsoever


If we're basing it on her own testimony, it's a classic coerced confession. I thought the issue was that people didn't believe what she said, not that what she said didn't indicate that the confession was coerced.


As I said: I see absolutely nothing to suggest her accusation was coerced: not one thing. I have made that perfectly clear and others have also made it clear that they do not believe it. So if you have had the impression that the issue is not that I can only conclude you have not read what folk have been saying
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom