Merged Israel Attacks Palestinian Aid Flotilla, According To Reports

[yairhol]

Meanwhile, Palestinians try to launch attack from sea:

http://www.ynetnews.com/home/0,7340,L-3083,00.html

According to the Israel Defense Forces Spokesperson's Unit, a Navy force spotted a cell in the waters of the Nahal Aza area, near Gaza. The force opened fire at the cell and hit a number of gunmen wearing diving suits and armed with weapons.

 

[DC]

The fact that they're stateless, and won't be for a while.



OK, just making sure you didn't include the territory of Israel itself in the "occupation of Palestine".

At least I can respect that.

ah ok, so you accept their right for an independent state, Gaza and West bank as Palestine?

 

[Mycroft]

http://www.theage.com.au/national/a...lotilla-ordeal-20100606-xnbh.html?autostart=1

"Mr Talib said he was put into a carry frame which the commandos set about dragging up stairs. He was in great pain and bleeding, but halfway up he was tipped out and told: "You have one healthy leg – walk up." "

Gee, if that really happened that's awful.

At the same time, when I see someone presenting something outrageous, something that comes across as a cartoonish caricature of evil, my tendency is to take it with a grain of salt. At the very least to consider who is making the charge and what their motivations might be.

But yeah, I agree with you that professional soldiers should not break their training to indulge in pointless acts of sadism.

 

[DC]

Seems pretty accurate to me. Granted, the western supporters aren't actually going "rah rah genocide," but they see the Palestines as oppressed by Israel rather than their genocidal elected government, and complain that Israel is blocking aid and ignoring that Hamas is historically and currently the one stealing and blocking supplies.

It's a narrative at odds with the facts. The facts are that Hamas and Israel are in conflict. Hamas's leaders make open calls for genocide, steal the aid intended for their people, build bunkers instead of infrastructure, and buy weapons from abroad to attack Israel with.

Israel has blockaded Hamas to stop the weapon shipments, allows the aid in, but has not taken the steps necessary to remove Hamas from government, largely (I conjecture) because even if they were to remove the party primarily responsible for the poverty and violence in Gaza, they'd just get blamed for being further evil oppressors. Plus, the Gazans would probably just elect another group like them anyway.

and in this whole process, the Israelis also got radicalized, and that led to some people not recognizing them anymore. and maybe even compare them to Mugabe.
also the debates got extremely polarized.
when you now say you dont like some things being banned from entering Gaza, for example chocolate. those on the other side of the debate want to understand you don't like missiles being banned.
when you protest the conditions of the Palestinian people you are blamed for caring for terrorists and accusations of terrorist apologizers, and we all want the destruction of Israel anyway.....
even when you say the word Palestine you are suspected to mean the british mandate of Palestine and that again is just a sign how much you want to destroy Israel.

 

[Mycroft]

I don't know what the media are saying in America, but from where I'm sitting this is a complete own goal. The Israeli spokesmen are coming over like Mugabe's henchmen telling us how completely justified the reassignment of the farms to the "war veterans" is, and how all Nigeria's elections are free and fair. And that's the only pro-Israeli case that's being made.

Does your media show the videos of the "activists" beating the soldiers with pipes and clubs?

What's your personal take on the issue?

 

[quixotecoyote]

and in this whole process, the Israelis also got radicalized, and that led to some people not recognizing them anymore. and maybe even compare them to Mugabe.

Perhaps it is not fair to blame Israel for Rolfe's comments without better evidence?

when you now say you dont like some things being banned from entering Gaza, for example chocolate. those on the other side of the debate want to understand you don't like missiles being banned.

Rather we understand you have not shown chocolate is actually banned and we also understand that the point of the flotilla you were supporting was to break the blockade. Since the actual aid is still going through via land, the change with the lack of the blockade would be to re-allow weapon shipments.

when you protest the conditions of the Palestinian people you are blamed for caring for terrorists and accusations of terrorist apologizers, and we all want the destruction of Israel anyway.....

Or rather, when you protest the conditions of the Palestinian people by blaming Israel rather than the genocidal terrorists who hold those people in poverty, you get get called on it.

even when you say the word Palestine you are suspected to mean the british mandate of Palestine and that again is just a sign how much you want to destroy Israel.

I believe one poster asked another to clarify their meaning and thanked them politely afterward, as the term does tend to get used to mean the entire area, especially by the government(s) of Palestine as you and I use the term.

 

[DC]

i can understand people writing "peace" activist. but why "activist"?

 

[Pardalis]

He pretty much confesses that they had attacked the Israeli soldiers. He himself says he helped disarm one of them.

Or maybe the soldier just gave it to him.

 

[Pardalis]

ah ok, so you accept their right for an independent state, Gaza and West bank as Palestine?

Absolutely.

 

[DC]

Perhaps it is not fair to blame Israel for Rolfe's comments without better evidence?





Rather we understand you have not shown chocolate is actually banned and we also understand that the point of the flotilla you were supporting was to break the blockade. Since the actual aid is still going through via land, the change with the lack of the blockade would be to re-allow weapon shipments.



Or rather, when you protest the conditions of the Palestinian people by blaming Israel rather than the genocidal terrorists who hold those people in poverty, you get get called on it.



I believe one poster asked another to clarify their meaning and thanked them politely afterward, as the term does tend to get used to mean the entire area, especially by the government(s) of Palestine as you and I use the term.

yeah thats also such a point.
the list. we have a state that is blocking stuff. they refuse to release a list of what is actually banned.
a group decide to go to court, they still refuse to publish a list.
now that group compiles their own list based on what has been blocked from entering.
automatically it is asumed the list is incorrect. and the Israel fanboys hide behind the fact that there is no official list.
and those same people that have no problem with Israel not releasing a list, complain about Gisha not publishing their work of how they compiled the list.

laughable.
as long you have nothing to counter the only avaible information. i accept it as fact.
not my problem if Israel doesnt release the list.

freaking black and white thinking in an issue full of grey.

 

[DC]

Absolutely.

 

[quixotecoyote]

laughable.
as long you have nothing to counter the only avaible information. i accept it as fact.
not my problem if Israel doesnt release the list.

freaking black and white thinking in an issue full of grey.

How ironic. If there's no official list, you'll believe the other list, even though it's been shown to be compiled in a completely unreliable method, and you accuse those who point it out as having black and white thinking.

 

[Puppycow]

Meanwhile, Palestinians try to launch attack from sea:

http://www.ynetnews.com/home/0,7340,L-3083,00.html

More "peace activists" I'm sure.

 

[DC]

How ironic. If there's no official list, you'll believe the other list, even though it's been shown to be compiled in a completely unreliable method, and you accuse those who point it out as having black and white thinking.

when you have a better list, pls present it.
and the main critique point against Gisha's list is, that its based on what Palestinians say. what a great point. Thats bigotry, not critique.

 

[a_unique_person]

More "peace activists" I'm sure.

No.

 

[quixotecoyote]

when you have a better list, pls present it.

I will. Until then, please stop claiming proof while lacking evidence.

and the main critique point against Gisha's list is, that its based on what Palestinians say. what a great point. Thats bigotry, not critique.

Way to strawman the argument into a bigotry claim.

The main critique point is that the list is said to be based on being told what items unnamed parties were unable to get into Gaza. Nothing to do with the unnamed parties being Palestinian. Everything to do with no mention of methods or even attempts to verify that any of the information was accurate or the reasons behind the items being stopped.

No attempts at verification are given. The parties aren't named. No evidence that the reason for the items being stopped was a ban on those items. They have no evidence the items were stopped at all. The entire list is based on the methodology of "some guy told me..."

No reason is given to believe the list isn't completely manufactured out of whole cloth.

Yet despite this. You want to believe it is true.

 

[DC]

I will. Until then, please stop claiming proof while lacking evidence.

Way to strawman the argument into a bigotry claim.

The main critique point is that the list is said to be based on being told what items unnamed parties were unable to get into Gaza. Nothing to do with the unnamed parties being Palestinian. Everything to do with no mention of methods or even attempts to verify that any of the information was accurate or the reasons behind the items being stopped.

No attempts at verification are given. The parties aren't named. No evidence that the reason for the items being stopped was a ban on those items. They have no evidence the items were stopped at all. The entire list is based on the methodology of "some guy told me..."

No reason is given to believe the list isn't completely manufactured out of whole cloth.

Yet despite this. You want to believe it is true.

how do you know their methods when you claim they don't mention their methods?



btw have you seen evidence of the mass of aid Israel claims have been let into Gaza?

 

[GlennB]

No attempts at verification are given. The parties aren't named. No evidence that the reason for the items being stopped was a ban on those items. They have no evidence the items were stopped at all. The entire list is based on the methodology of "some guy told me..."

No reason is given to believe the list isn't completely manufactured out of whole cloth.

Yet despite this. You want to believe it is true.

A fair point. What would people consider to be a reasonably reliable source for a list of 'banned' items and materials?

edit: although perhaps it would be more relevant to look at vital issues such as medicine, fuel and building materials rather than get tied up with cardamom vs. cinnamon.

 

[quixotecoyote]

how do you know their methods when you claim they don't mention their methods?

When you start responding to what I actually write, I will respond to your posts. Specifically, I said there was no mention of methods or attempts to verify that any of the information was accurate or the reasons behind the items being stopped.

That is different from the method of compiling the list, which was given in the linked list.

 

[quixotecoyote]

A fair point. What would people consider to be a reasonably reliable source for a list of 'banned' items and materials?

Hypothetically speaking, Israel releasing a list would be my top choice. Since we don't have that, maybe something like a shipping company policy on what isn't allowed. Even an activist group that has decent methodology and documentation would work.