Plasma Cosmology - Woo or not

Tim Eastman has written a revised version of his Cosmic Agnostisism paper, which is a good read and cites lots of plasma cosmology.

Cosmic Agnosticism, Revisited
Timothy E. Eastman, Ph.D.
Plasmas International, 1225 Edgevale Road Silver Spring, MD 20910

http://journalofcosmology.com/Multiverse5.html



:scarper:

:)

Consider for example, the basic premise of all BB models and most of their contenders, i.e. the requirement that in the "beginning" all of matter was concentrated into a singularity, in which space is not just infinitesimally small, but where there is no space at all, such that the amount of energy stored at the singularity also becomes infinite. In addition, as size decreases, energy levels increase and so does gravity. Yet, whether for the standard model or quantum physics, a subatomic, or quantum theory of gravity does not yet exist. At the singularity, and using "black holes" as an example, how is gravity overcome so as to give rise to an expanding universe that does not immediately fall back into itself? So far, no one has explained how the initial bang was ignited. — George Gamow himself (one of the BB originators) considered this as a major problem for BB (G. Gamow, personal communication, 1968).
The fact that there is no reconcilliation for the sigularity between GR and QM is not a problem for the Big Bang, it describes the conditions after the sigularity, if that is what it was.

More later
 
No I do, just due their null (rather near insignificant) masses they are not often referred to as matter.
By whom would that be? They are matter.
And baryonic matter is made up of smaller parts. Wherther or not they themselves are baryonic is kind of arbitrary.

You said this and yo are wrong in stating it moving the goals posts does not help your original statement
"rather Non-baryonic matter, is by definition different from the ordinary matter observed anywhere on earth"

Nope, non-baryonic matter is observed frequently.
 
careful, someones getting dangerously close to asking questions that will get very different answers according to who replies, which in itself reveals something about the clarity of the theory in question :)

over and out [for now]

Careful Zeuzzz, you do not want to actually get to close to data and evidence, because your lack of either reveals the lack of theory.

Do you care to show us where you showed something of Plasma Cosmology that had any numeric meaning? Or data and evidence to back it up?
 
Zeuzzz said:
Dancing David said:
And the statement about non-baryoic matter is sort of ignorant, there is non-baryonic matter here on earth. DUH.

I guess Zuezzz does'nt believe in leptons of nutrinos.
No I do, just due their null (rather near insignificant) masses they are not often referred to as matter.
Cite?
Bump.

How did you form the conclusion that, because leptons and neutrinos have "null (rather near insignificant) masses they are not often referred to as matter"?

Did you read it somewhere perhaps?
 
careful, someones getting dangerously close to asking questions that will get very different answers according to who replies, which in itself reveals something about the clarity of the theory in question :)

over and out [for now]
What "very different answers according to who replies" have you seen, Z?

How clearly does Eastman (seem to) understand "the theory in question", Z?
 
PC/EU theory however is not threatened by the discovery of "mature" galaxies and clusters like your theory. It's much more "flexible" in that respect. It's all 100% physics, as opposed to mainstream theory which is only 4% actual physics, and 96 percent 'gap filler'.
Where, pray tell, can one read the details of galaxy formation and evolution, according to "PC/EU theory"?
 
It seems Z, MM, and tensordyne have abandoned this thread.

I wonder why?


That'll happen when the crackpots realize that they can't troll anyone with their nonsense anymore. As long as someone is willing to indulge them by responding to their sciency sounding BS they'll keep at it. But when everyone has busted them and they can't get away with their lies or get other people to jump through hoops for them, they leave like a bunch of little girls running from a spider. No guts. SOP. I've seen Michael do it on several occasions.
 
That'll happen when the crackpots realize that they can't troll anyone with their nonsense anymore. As long as someone is willing to indulge them by responding to their sciency sounding BS they'll keep at it. But when everyone has busted them and they can't get away with their lies or get other people to jump through hoops for them, they leave like a bunch of little girls running from a spider. No guts. SOP. I've seen Michael do it on several occasions.
I think the three are quite different.

tensordyne, for example, seems to had an interest in some alternative explanations he came across somewhere, and didn't really have the tools to understand what he read. Having exchanged a few posts with some regulars here, I think his subsequent absence may be due to realising that things were not quite as painted by PC (or EU) proponents.
 
Zeuzzz: Can you provide citations for your "cool plasma" assertion

Bump
First asked 19 May 2010
Zeuzzz:
Can you provide citations for the huge amount of "cool plasma" in galaxy clusters that is enough to explain dark matter?

Why did this "cool plasma" not act like the rest of the plasma in the cluster: collide and heat up?

Relatively cool plasma also emits radiation. When astonomers look at galaxy clusters thay do this in various wavelengths. This allows them to measure that in clusters 5-20% of the visible matter is in the galaxies with the rest in the intracluster medium.
 
No rc, I cant. Well I dont have the time atm anyway. Plus ive sort of given up on plasma cosmology, as a philisophical framework for future cosmologies of similar ideas its a great novel approach. But the plasma cosmology I grew to know as this thread progressed I ended up being able to debunk myself, which of course Im far too arrogant to be exact or even mention these in this thread, but safe to say that if held up to the standards and complexity of the only other theory in town, The Big Bang, plasma cosmology falls flat on its face. Funding? Bah. Dont ask me, ask Lerner, or the signatories of the cosmology statement.
 
Plasma is cool stuff (well usually hot) but there are the range effects.

Lerner at one time though black holes could not exist in galactic centers as well.
 
If anyone really cares deeply about it, why not go and actually study the proper fields of science that deal with it?


They might not be able to afford education.

I've studied it for a while. And im not impressed with the current "standard model" and some of the things it implies, at all. Make your own minds up, just make sure its a valid internally consistant provable scientific framework that can be tested, falsified and makes accurate predicitions, and not just some weird unprovable theory thats basically as good as religion.
 
Do you have one to propose?


Not my own, I just prefer Plasma Cosmology, as over the years all the predictions it has made based on its starting assumptions and numerous publications have shown with time to be much more accurate than BBT predictions, and plasma cosmology uses drastically less free parameters. Plus PC does not violate any of the basic laws of physics like BBT. Its predictions for the CMB from plasma filaments are more accurate, it light element abundances predictions based on steller surface plasma properties are many orders of magnitude more accurate, the filamentary plasma origin of large scale structures and the origin of the cosmic microwave background in a "radio fog" of dense plasma filaments have now been demonstrated. It looks like a winner to me.

http://bigbangneverhappened.org/p27.htm
 
Not my own, I just prefer Plasma Cosmology

Never heard of it. How is this field generally received in the physics community?

If the theorie's predictions have been demonstrated, as you claim, shouldn't it have created ripples in the science community by now?
 
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If the theorie's predictions have been demonstrated, as you claim, shouldn't it have created ripples in the science community by now?


Based on its superior predictive power, better more scientifically sound starting assumptions and the fact that we now know that 99.99% of the matter in the universe is infact matter in a plasma state (not solid, liquid, or gas, like was assumed when the Big Bang theory and the standard model for the sun and stars was formulated) and thus the universe should obey primarily complex plasma physics, dependent on the charge separation in space plasma, not fluid and gas equations that the big bang and solar models are based on.

The problem is this. When the Big Bang was first proposed (as a joke by cosmologist fred hoyle "it just went "bang!" everything from nothing" he said, or something similar) the equivalent of a messiah came to answer all these big questions cosmologists had been struggling with for years*. Paradoxical as a beginning in time from nothing is, if you assume this then you can work from there very easily. Soon people were expanding on the idea, new research was funded, huge facilities built, billions invested, all to try to discover more about the magical CMB and expansion and what it might tell us about the origin of the universe.

The effect was very weird. Scientists starting coming over all religous about this issue*. They had started to put all this work and effort into the idea of a definitive beginning in time for the universe, so any time someone pointed out that the laws of physics as we know do not allow the big bang to happen it really seemed to touch a nerve. Instead of the main cosmologists at the time being honest with the public they instead started to give the impression that they had worked out the biggest mystery in the universe. Us primitive apes, despite all our fancy equipment, arcane mathematical abstractions and all these hypothetical entities never discovered on earth, are basically clutching in the dark, Big Bang models are still riddled with assumptions and issues. Yet instead of evaluating the different frameworks they could approach cosmology from they ploughed on with the models they had started based on expansion and the CMB. So within a few years textbooks in schools were being published with Big Bang theory work as if it was fact. University courses were set up, millions goes into new investment. And the only real evidence for it was in their interpretation of the data they use to prove expansion, and apparently the homogeneity of the microwave part of the em spectrum means something amazingly cool and big bangy (depending on how you interpret the data!)

I might as well find a pattern in a part of the EM spectrum thats not been studied much, assign that huge universal significance, and then combine this with light data from galaxy clusters to prove once and for all that these two tiny nit picks of data are amazingly significant on a cosmological scale, and everything else can just be explained later by more mundane local things like pulsars or stars. :rolleyes:

Even mention at uni that the Big Bang never happened and you'll be a laughing stock. Its just accepted fact. But show one of the people laughing an alternative explanation for the origin of the CMB by one of the various scientists that have made such models, or one of the better tired light related theories to put inflation into doubt, and they will just go kinda quiet.

The Big Bang based projects get billions. Literally billions to send satellites up to study the data in space they have chosen to be significant. Funny thing is that plasma cosmology, despite getting hardly any funding at all, has used THEIR data, and found out that their predictions are still better to this day! If plasma cosmology was taken seriously by the religious zealots that seem to think that the Big Bang is the only theory allowed in town they could send satellites up to actually find what they want to. They are still doing well using the Big Bang based data though. But as it is they publish the work and models, buts its completely ignored by the "mainstream" cosmology community. )

Heres the *uncensored* plasma cosmology Wikipedia. It was taken down by admins at wikipedia that did not like the fact that the big bang had a competing theory that seemed to get far much more right with far simpler ideas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Plasma_cosmology&oldid=88918621

Overview

Plasma cosmology posits that the most important feature of the universe is that the matter it contains is composed almost entirely of astrophysical plasma. The state of matter known as plasma is an electrically-conductive collection of charged particles, possibly together with neutral particles or dust, that exhibits collective behavior and that responds as a whole to electromagnetic forces. The charged particles are usually ions and electrons resulting from heating a gas. Stars and the interstellar medium are composed of plasma of different densities. Plasma physics is uncontroversially accepted to play an important role in many astrophysical phenomena.

The basic assumptions of plasma cosmology which differ from standard cosmology are:

1. Since the universe is nearly all plasma, electromagnetic forces are equal in importance with gravitation on all scales.[10].
2. An origin in time for the universe is rejected,[11] due to causality arguments and rejection of ex nihilo models as a stealth form of creationism.[12]
3. Since every part of the universe we observe is evolving, it assumes that the universe itself is evolving as well, though a scalar expansion as predicted from the FRW metric is not accepted as part of this evolution (see static universe).

Plasma cosmology advocates emphasize the links between physical processes observable in laboratories on Earth and those that govern the cosmos; as many cosmological processes as possible are explained by the behavior of a plasma in the laboratory.[13] Proponents contrast this with the big bang theory which has over the course of its existence required the introduction of such features as inflation, dark matter and dark energy that have not been detectable yet in laboratory experiments.[14]

While plasma cosmology has never had the support of most astronomers or physicists, a few researchers have continued to promote and develop the approach, and publish in special issues of the IEEE Transactions on Plasma Science (See for example issues in 2000, 2003 and 2007). The level of detail in the development of big bang cosmology is not rivalled by that seen in plasma cosmology, evidenced by the quantity of scientific papers published regarding the two approaches.



* The Big Bang Religion: Scientists Speak For Themselves
http://home.pacbell.net/skeptica/religion.html
Every culture has had myths about how the world began. In modern times, we are very technological and we have our scientific version. And it turns out that science's version is more incredible than any myth anyone ever made.

Then, last week, American scientists announced the discovery of radiation patterns in space that may mark the beginning of time itself. Said astrophysicist George Smoot, leader of the research team: "If you're religious, it's like looking at God. The order is so beautiful and the symmetry so beautiful that you think there is some design behind it."

Whatever caused the rapid expansion of the universe following the Big Bang--the same forces caused tiny ripples. Because if you try to do something too fast, you shake a little. God might be the designer.
--Maclean's, May 4, 1992 (the three above quotes are by George Smoot).


"It is a mystical experience, like a religious experience," Smoot said, reflecting the unscientific thoughts he had allowed himself in recent days, after the rigorous analysis of data was well behind him. "It really is like finding the driving mechanism for the universe, and isn't that what God is?" --(San Jose Mercury News, May 12, 1992. Story by John Noble Wilford of the New York Times.)


"By studying the way objects attract each other," Lange goes on, "we can come to the conclusion that there must be something [in the universe] that isn't normal matter, something that's some new form of matter. And any particle that exists--that God put in from the beginning--if it's stable, would still be around in great abundance.” --Andrew Lange (April 26, 1991 issue of the East Bay Express: "The Revenge of the WIMPS" an article by Steve Heimoff on current cosmology. This article centers on the U.C. Berkeley Lange Group, "a group of instructors, graduate students, and department assistants, organized under assistant professor of physics Andrew Lange.”)


The evolution of the universe from nothing is described by the big bang theory.
--astrophysicists Fang Li Zhi and Li Shu Xian, (Creation of the Universe, World Scientific, 1989)


What is the ultimate solution to the origin of the Universe? The answers provided by the astronomers are disconcerting and remarkable. Most remarkable of all is the fact that in science, as in the Bible, the world begins with an act of creation.
--astronomer Robert Jastrow, (Until the Sun Dies, 1977) p

To the contrary, "creation out of nothing" is a concept unique to Western religions. In traditional Western religious thought, the conception of a creator of the world is a conception of God. Indeed, creation of the world "out of nothing" is the ultimate religious statement because God is the only actor....
--Rev. Bill McLean, et al., Plaintiffs, v. The Arkansas Board of Education, et al., Defendants. No. LR C 81 322., United States District Court, E.D. Arkansas, W.D., January 5, 1982.

Concepts concerning...a supreme being of some sort are manifestly religious....These concepts do not shed that religiosity merely because they are presented as philosophy or as a science... Malnak v. Yogi, 440 F.Supp. 1284, 1322 (D.N.J. 1977); aff’d per curiam, 592 F.2d 197 (3d Cir. 1979).


Mr. Wouk also raises an interesting issue regarding creationism. My complaint that fundamentalist creationism is inspired by big bang creationism (Physics Today, April 1983) was echoed recently by John Maddox, who writes in his August 10, 1989, Nature editorial, "Creationists and those of similar persuasions seeking support for their opinions have ample justification in the doctrine of the Big Bang”. --Anthony Peratt (The Sciences, July/August 1990)


The Astronomy Book Club interviews the author of The Mind of God, the book by Professor Paul Davies:

Q: At one point in THE MIND OF GOD you ask, "If we can never get a handle on the laws [of nature] except through their manifestation in physical phenomena, what right have we got to attribute to them an independent [transcendent] existence?" What's the answer?

A: It's clear that at a certain point one has to take a metaphysical position. We're never going to tell from our investigations of the world whether these laws have an independent existence or not. But if the laws don't have an independent existence, then we can never appeal to them to explain how the Universe came into existence, because it's only if there are transcendent, independent laws capable of bringing the Universe into being and sustaining its existence through time that we can even conceive of an explanation for the origin of the Universe.

It is pretty transparent that Davies’ "transcendent, independent laws" are his words for God. p
 
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