Merged Israel Attacks Palestinian Aid Flotilla, According To Reports

[thesyntaxera]

Let's take a look at what Israel actually DOES let in as aid to Gaza:

http://www.cicweb.ca/scene/2010/06/israel_aid_to_gaza/

Gaza has a dysfunctional government and a culture that is so obsessed with Israel and its destruction, that it can focus on little else...hence the desperate need of massive aid.

And yet...a repost:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip#Health
A study carried out by Johns Hopkins University (U.S.) and Al-Quds University (in Abu Dis) for CARE International in late 2002 revealed very high levels of dietary deficiency among the Palestinian population. The study found that 17.5% of children aged 6–59 months suffered from chronic malnutrition. 53% of women of reproductive age and 44% of children were found to be anemic. In the aftermath of the Israeli withdrawal of August and September 2005, the health care system in Gaza continues to face severe challenges.[97] After the Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip the health conditions in Gaza Strip faces new challenges. World Health Organization (WHO) expressed its concerns about the consequences of the Palestinian internal political fragmentation; the socioeconomic decline; military actions; and the physical, psychological and economic isolation on the health of the population in Gaza.[98]

Gazans who desire medical care in Israeli hospitals must apply for a medical visa permit. In 2007, State of Israel granted 7,176 permits and denied 1,627.[99]

Following the war, Gaza has witnessed increasing epidemics of health problems. At the Al Shifa hospital a constant increase in the percentage of children born with birth defects of about 60% was witnessed when the period of July to September 2008 was compared to the same period in 2009.[100][101] Local doctors point the finger at radioactive munition and white phosphorus used by Israel during the Gaza war. Dr. Mohammed Abu Shaban, director of the Blood Tumors Department in Al-Rantisy Hospital in Gaza has witnessed an increase in the number of cases of blood cancer. In March 2010 the department had seen 55 cases so far for that year, compared to the 20 to 25 cases normally seen in an entire year.[102]

 

[Peephole]

Food is allowed in. It makes sense not to allow cement because Hamas had historically used it to build bunker systems[1] instead of civilian infrastructure like sewer [2] and water systems.


[1] http://www.jpost.com/Home/Article.aspx?id=80119
[2] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6498835.stm

Cement isn't the only thing being banned, here's an incomplete list:

fresh meat
dried fruit
seeds and nuts
biscuits and sweets
chocolate
potato chips
halva
jam
sage
cardamom
cumin
coriander
ginger
nutmeg
vinegar

horses
donkeys
goats
cattle
chicks

tarpaulin sheets for huts
wood for construction
cement
iron
plaster
tar
heaters

fishing rods
various fishing nets
buoys
ropes for fishing

irrigation pipe systems
spare parts for tractors
nylon nets for greenhouses
ropes to tie greenhouses
planters for saplings

hatcheries and spare parts for hatcheries
dairies for cowsheds
heaters for chicken farms

fruit preserves
glucose
flavor and smell enhancers
plastic/glass/metal containers
gas for soft drinks
industrial salt
industrial margarine
fabric (for clothing)
sewing machines and spare parts

size A4 paper
writing implements
notebooks
newspapers
musical instruments
toys
razors

The results are clear: almost no reconstruction of the war torn Gaza strip, increased malnutrition and severe poverty.

Again, collective punishment is a war crime. It might make nice military strategy (though I doubt it), but it is what it is.

The people of Gaza do not have to suffer because of the actions of Hamas.

 

[portlandatheist]

That list has already been posted and discussed and like I said before, its hearsay.

 

[thesyntaxera]

...snip...
The results are clear: almost no reconstruction of the war torn Gaza strip, increased malnutrition and severe poverty.

Again, collective punishment is a war crime. It might make nice military strategy (though I doubt it), but it is what it is.
The people of Gaza do not have to suffer because of the actions of Hamas.

Countdown to accusations of "definitional shell games." beginning in 5,4,3...

 

[thesyntaxera]

That list has already been posted and discussed and like I said before, its hearsay.

Regardless, there is still a humanitarian crisis to the tune of a million and a half people that isn't being serviced by the current methods.

 

[Peephole]

That list has already been posted and discussed and like I said before, its hearsay.

No, it's the best available information.

If you don't like it, go complain to the Israeli government who refuses to release the actual list.

 

[lionking]

No, it's the best available information.

If you don't like it, go complain to the Israeli government who refuses to release the actual list.

Ah, you agree with portlandatheist then.

 

[quixotecoyote]

No, it's the best available information.

If you don't like it, go complain to the Israeli government who refuses to release the actual list.

Which, as discussed before, is hearsay.

You are just repeating yourself and not addressing the points raised in opposition.

I'll say it again. I would like Israel to release a list of banned items. Even though it has apparently not done so, you don't get to pick any list you want from a source who doesn't show their work and whose method of compiling the list is crap, as I discussed earlier.

 

[WildCat]

But-- but-- tens of thousands of people should have died, if that much aid got through! How come... ooooh, you're saying all those tonnes of food and supplies were delivered the easy, legal way, without fighting the Israeli Defense Force with iron pipes and hatchets! That's a kind of ingenious idea, actually, akin to just walking through the security checkpoint at an airport instead of trying to fight your way to your airplane with an iron pipe across the ground crew-only tarmac. I wonder why none of the activists have thought of it?

Who'd a thunk it?

 

[Safe-Keeper]

I'll say it again. I would like Israel to release a list of banned items. Even though it has apparently not done so, you don't get to pick any list you want from a source who doesn't show their work and whose method of compiling the list is crap, as I discussed earlier.

Ship lots of stuff to Gaza. What gets returned is banned.

 

[WildCat]

And yet...a repost:

Local doctors point the finger at radioactive munition and white phosphorus used by Israel during the Gaza war.

Yes, I'm sure that's the reason, no need for an actual scientific study when you have partisans with anecdotal evidence and hunches! And that Hamas doctors wouldn't inflate their claims one bit!

Same old crap.

 

[quixotecoyote]

Yes. Do you disagree?

Obviously.

I know. That's part of the problem. You can't seem to grasp that people can define things differently.

A criminal violation of international human rights in the context of war is a war crime. You can't deny you're saying it's a war crime and then say that you do believe it is [string of words that is the definition of a war crime].

I need to quote the next exchange a little further back.

Regarding your equitable merger of the two groups....I doubt just as much as you that Israel would ever do anything as charitable as that.

Refresh my memory. What merger was I suggesting?

Originally Posted by quixotecoyote
What if Israel was willing to concede >90% of the West Bank, all the Gaza Strip, Palestinian control over East Jerusalem and compensation for the lost property of Palestinian refugees? That seems like a good deal to me.

Ok, did you get that the reason I pulled those specific concessions was that was the exact offer that was given to Arafat at Camp David and that he turned down and refused to discuss further? That's why I say it's bunk that Israel isn't interested in peace.

You thought neither side was interested in peace.

I gave a list of concessions that would show Israel was interested.

You referred to that list as equitable and charitable.

I show that Israel actually offered those concessions and Palestine balked.

I would hope this would help you reach the conclusion that Israel really does want peace.
eta:

Israeli ... offered to withdraw from 97 percent of the West Bank and 100 percent of the Gaza Strip. In addition, he agreed to dismantle 63 isolated settlements. In exchange for the 5 percent annexation of the West Bank, Israel would increase the size of the Gaza territory by roughly a third.


...


Arab neighborhoods of East Jerusalem would become the capital of the new state. The Palestinians would maintain control over their holy places and have "religious sovereignty" over the Temple Mount.



...


Israel offered to create a Palestinian state that was contiguous ... an overland highway would connect the two parts of the Palestinian state without any Israeli checkpoints or interference.

...


The proposal also addressed the refugee issue, guaranteeing them the right of return to the Palestinian state and reparations from a $30 billion international fund that would be collected to compensate them.

...


Israel also agreed to give the Palestinians access to water desalinated in its territory.



...


Arafat was asked to agree to Israeli sovereignty over the parts of the Western Wall religiously significant to Jews (i.e., not the entire Temple Mount), and three early warning stations in the Jordan valley, which Israel would withdraw from after six years. Most important, however, Arafat was expected to agree that the conflict was over at the end of the negotiations.
http://www.jewishfederations.org/page.aspx?id=101041

If you don't like that source, you can find the terms of the deal anywhere.

I also have no idea how you can write this:

Considering the level of poverty in Gaza I would guess that none of the aid actually makes it to most people after filtering through Hamas. All the walling and blockading will only protect Israel from Hamas, it doesn't help the people inside who are subject to their rule. All Israel is doing is hurting innocent people who are then more susceptible to the propaganda being issued by Hamas. It's just one big self perpetuating cycle.

In which you admit that the humanitarian problems Peephole is going on about is caused by Hamas siphoning off the massive aid being given to Palestine but then call Israel forcing that aid to go to Hamas by land rather than sea hurting the Palestinian people. It just doesn't wash.

 

[WildCat]

Again, collective punishment is a war crime. It might make nice military strategy (though I doubt it), but it is what it is.

Countdown to accusations of "definitional shell games." beginning in 5,4,3...

It's not an accusation, it's what it is. This definition of "collective punishment" was invented for Israel and only Israel.

 

[quixotecoyote]

Ship lots of stuff to Gaza. What gets returned is banned.

Not even that. Have people tell you that they've shipped stuff to Gaza and had it refused entry. Then list those things as banned.

 

[theprestige]

Prestige, the "we're just stopping weapon shipments"-excuse would carry a lot more weight, if Israel didn't also block food and construction materials (among others).

Good thing I never claimed Israel is "just stopping weapon shipments", isn't it?

 

[theprestige]

Considering the level of poverty in Gaza I would guess that none of the aid actually makes it to most people after filtering through Hamas. All the walling and blockading will only protect Israel from Hamas, it doesn't help the people inside who are subject to their rule.

Why should Israel be responsible for helping the citizens of Gaza to deal with the horror of their own elected government?

What would you suggest Israel do, other than continue with its current program of protecting itself from Hamas and working to end Hamas?

I'm sure Israel could work a lot harder to end Hamas than just blockading Gaza, but every time it tries, your panties get all in a twist about how horribly Israel is treating Gazan residents.

I'm sure Israel and "innocent people" in Gaza would both love to hear your solution to this conundrum: How to end Hamas without harming anybody else in Gaza at all. I'm sure you've already considered the possibility that Hamas has made such a solution impossible. But of course you have a better answer anyway, am I right? Something to do with lifting the blockade and magically Hamas will not benefit?

 

[HitchensIsGod]

As I understand it, Felix Kraemer's theory of 'provacative weakness' holds that the perception of weakness will likely invite an attack from your enemies. Kraemer (a guru to Kissinger, Alexander Haig and others) was:::

"convinced that the only effective foreign policy was one backed by the realistic threat of using military force to achieve its goals. He distrusted diplomacy, especially with dictatorial regimes, was dismissive of the efforts of international organizations such as the United Nations, and advocated that foreign policy be made and executed by a self-selected elite without interference from elected officials or the bourgeoisie."

Israel obviously ascribes to this theory yet is continually attacked nonetheless from a foe they cannot vanquish. Then in sails this group of Palestinians 'humanitarians' unannounced.. Israel presumes the worst.. responds disproportionately as usual..

One wonders if the Ghandi "non violence" approach would ever produce results for the Palestinians against adominant foe like Israel. People the world over seem to fight until they finally tire of doing so.

 

[Peephole]

Here's some smuggled out videtape, mostly audio though.

 

[quixotecoyote]

"convinced that the only effective foreign policy was one backed by the realistic threat of using military force to achieve its goals. He distrusted diplomacy, especially with dictatorial regimes, was dismissive of the efforts of international organizations such as the United Nations, and advocated that foreign policy be made and executed by a self-selected elite without interference from elected officials or the bourgeoisie."

Israel obviously ascribes to this theory yet is continually attacked nonetheless from a foe they cannot vanquish. Then in sails this group of Palestinians 'humanitarians' unannounced.. Israel presumes the worst.. responds disproportionately as usual..

How interesting. I don't see the Israelis as being distrustful of diplomacy, even with dictators, in general. Can you show that this is the case rather than them not trusting these theocrats in particular?

I would also be interested in how you would apply this analysis to the government(s) of Palestine.

 

[theprestige]

How interesting. I don't see the Israelis as being distrustful of diplomacy, even with dictators, in general. Can you show that this is the case rather than them not trusting these theocrats in particular?

I would also be interested in how you would apply this analysis to the government(s) of Palestine.

Seriously? A new member with a name like that goes on my ignore list automatically. Please let me know if they post anything worth considering.