Merged Israel Attacks Palestinian Aid Flotilla, According To Reports

[DC]

"But the account from Andre Abu Khalil, a cameraman for Al Jazeera TV, echoed other testimony, from both sides, that after an initial landing by a small group of commandos armed with anti-riot weapons was overpowered by activists wielding sticks, a second wave of marines stormed in, killing those in their way."

hmmmmmm.....

never underestimate your opponent.

 

[Thunder]

never underestimate your opponent.

now, there are two ways of looking at this.

1. The activists were trying to break through an illegal embargo, with necessary food and other supplies. The Israelis commited a criminal act by boarding the ship, and the activists had the right to detain the soldiers, as an act of citizen's arrest.

2. Whether or not they liked the IDF's actions, the activists understood the situation very well, and it was improper for them to detain the soldiers.

Honestly, this law of the sea stuff...is way above my pay grade. This stuff needs to be decided by the UN.

 

[DC]

now, there are two ways of looking at this.

1. The activists were trying to break through an illegal embargo, with necessary food and other supplies. The Israelis commited a criminal act by boarding the ship, and the activists had the right to detain the soldiers, as an act of citizen's arrest.

2. Whether or not they liked the IDF's actions, the activists understood the situation very well, and it was improper for them to detain the soldiers.

Honestly, this law of the sea stuff...is way above my pay grade. This stuff needs to be decided by the UN.

no matter how the law is, when you take IDF soldiers hostage, you just have to expect to meet the best army in the world and when you then only brought sticks and knives to the fight ....

 

[carlitos]

It's worth noting that IDF soldier Gilad Shalit is still being held in Gaza, where he has been held hostage for 4 years by Hamas.

 

[LashL]

Well, that's two hours of my life I'll never get back. I have to give you folks credit. Almost 800 posts in only two days. The good news is, I'm only sending about 100 of them to AAH. The bad news is that since almost all of them followed a modbox, I've sprinkled in a few infractions too.

Now with this much stuff to read, you can pretty much be sure that I didn't carefully examine each post. I looked for personal insults, incivility, off-topic... well, you know. The usual stuff. But not with a fine-toothed comb. More like with a pitchfork. If you got forked because you were too near the action, well, I'm sorry, but that's hell for you.

I don't want to have to do this again, and if I do, the infractions will be more than a sprinkle. I don't care how polarizing this topic is, you have got to stop breaching the MA or you'll face some serious penalties.

Even if we have to board you to do it.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky

Apparently, that modbox above from two days ago did not do the trick, and another 70 or so posts have been moved to AAH. Like Tricky, I did not examine each post in great depth, and I used a hatchet rather than a scalpel, so if some perhaps salvageable posts got cut along with the incivilities, off topic stuff and insults, etc., I'm sorry about that, but please keep things civil, on-topic, and within the parameters of the Membership Agreement from here on out.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL

 

[Safe-Keeper]

I wonder if it may not be an idea to simply lock the thread. Everything that can be said, seems to have been said, and the "debate" at the moment runs in circles, with a continuous barrage of insults from both sides. I propose the moderators set up a moderate blockade that stops and boards absolutely all inbound posts, especially those about LEGO bricks.

A lesser blockade that stops and inspects all posts, with moderators descend upon the posts with ban hammers and let them through only if they carry civil posts and not LEGO bricks or pumas. A moderated thread, as it were. Though I suspect that'd be a lot (a lot) of work.

In other words, close the thread already.

 

[Peephole]

The occupation of Palestine? What country is Palestine? The wars on Leb and Gaza where the missiles keep coming from? Strikes on Syria where the missiles originate? A massacre on a ship of thugs who beat Israelis?

I don't care whether you think these things are justified but they aren't the actions of a peacenik, pacifist nation that's just taking in the swings. Israel is agressive, with numerous wars and tons of violence as a consequence, it's silly to deny this.

Found this in a right wing blog:

[/indent]I do not have enough information to judge the claims, but currently it seems to me that the definition of banned is applied very loosely here - to include items which could be introduced via humanitarian agencies, but are not allowed for private merchants. (Saying that, it is not clear whether Israel actually banned chocolate, or just denied a few applications. I find it very hard to trust both sides on this issue.)

Maybe you should trust the side that's trying to get the information out, over the side that's trying to hide it.

Clearly you have no problem with violence, only when Jews take action.

No arguments left? Accuse the other party of anti-semitisme!

Right... jews are guilty until proven innocent. Got it, thanks.

No arguments left? Accuse the other party of anti-semitisme!

 

[JihadJane]

BEYOND THE PALE - The murder of Furkan Dogan

"Not all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitism.

But some is.


..."

 

[thesyntaxera]

I never said suffering is right. I never said war was right. I said suffering in itself (or war in itself) does not constitute a war crime and that it's dishonest to twist terms to try and make it seem otherwise.

Yeah I get that. I just disagree. I never said that it was a "war crime". What I was alluding to is that it, in my opinion, is criminal to blockade and wall in a million people who are essentially under the iron fisted control of hamas. If people need aid they need aid. Get it to them by any means available as quickly as possible. Any denial or delaying of aid is in my opinion a gross human rights violation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip#Health
"A study carried out by Johns Hopkins University (U.S.) and Al-Quds University (in Abu Dis) for CARE International in late 2002 revealed very high levels of dietary deficiency among the Palestinian population. The study found that 17.5% of children aged 6–59 months suffered from chronic malnutrition. 53% of women of reproductive age and 44% of children were found to be anemic. In the aftermath of the Israeli withdrawal of August and September 2005, the health care system in Gaza continues to face severe challenges.[97] After the Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip the health conditions in Gaza Strip faces new challenges. World Health Organization (WHO) expressed its concerns about the consequences of the Palestinian internal political fragmentation; the socioeconomic decline; military actions; and the physical, psychological and economic isolation on the health of the population in Gaza.[98]

Gazans who desire medical care in Israeli hospitals must apply for a medical visa permit. In 2007, State of Israel granted 7,176 permits and denied 1,627.[99]

Following the war, Gaza has witnessed increasing epidemics of health problems. At the Al Shifa hospital a constant increase in the percentage of children born with birth defects of about 60% was witnessed when the period of July to September 2008 was compared to the same period in 2009.[100][101] Local doctors point the finger at radioactive munition and white phosphorus used by Israel during the Gaza war. Dr. Mohammed Abu Shaban, director of the Blood Tumors Department in Al-Rantisy Hospital in Gaza has witnessed an increase in the number of cases of blood cancer. In March 2010 the department had seen 55 cases so far for that year, compared to the 20 to 25 cases normally seen in an entire year.[102]"

Regarding your equitable merger of the two groups....I doubt just as much as you that Israel would ever do anything as charitable as that.

 

[quixotecoyote]

Yeah I get that. I just disagree. I never said that it was a "war crime". What I was alluding to is that it, in my opinion, is criminal to blockade and wall in a million people who are essentially under the iron fisted control of hamas. If people need aid they need aid. Get it to them by any means available as quickly as possible. Any denial or delaying of aid is in my opinion a gross human rights violation.

Ahh, so it's not a "war crime", it's just "criminal" and a "human rights violation".

And here I thought you were playing definitional shell games.

Regarding your equitable merger of the two groups....I doubt just as much as you that Israel would ever do anything as charitable as that.

Refresh my memory. What merger was I suggesting?

 

[BeAChooser]

In other words, close the thread already.

I disagree. There is still new information being published about the attack which shed light on what really happened and there will be more in the future. A thread like this makes a good place holder for links to such information. That people can't be civil is a separate issue which shouldn't impact those who can.

And speaking of new information:

Here's a video (http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/2495.htm ) of the organizer of the flotilla at a Hamas Rally in February of 2009. Inciting violence in the name of Allah. It's scary what is happening folks. If the lies that are being promulgated by people like this are not countered (through threads like this), then America may let Israel stand alone against THIS when war comes.

 

[Peephole]

I disagree, I think what people refer to as "Palestine" is the whole region, which includes the state of Israel.

But the people saying "occupation of Palestine" don't accept the state of Israel.

Never have, don't and never will.

Good thing that we have you to determine what other people think!

How many flotillas / ships have been boarded by Israel in the past (ships that attempted or broke the blockade) that resulted in death? What makes this one different?

This is irrelevant, that other ships have been hijacked "peacefully" doesn't mean that the Mavi Marmara was or wasn't, and the other way around, previous activist being perfectly peaceful, doesn't mean the passengers on the Mavi Marmara were or weren't. Policies, people and situations change.

 

[theprestige]

Yeah I get that. I just disagree. I never said that it was a "war crime". What I was alluding to is that it, in my opinion, is criminal to blockade and wall in a million people who are essentially under the iron fisted control of hamas. If people need aid they need aid. Get it to them by any means available as quickly as possible. Any denial or delaying of aid is in my opinion a gross human rights violation.

(emphasis mine)

thesyntaxera, you seem to believe that Hamas is a Bad Thing. If so, wouldn't you be eager to prevent any shipments that might strengthen their regime or enable their program? Including shipments labeled as "aid" but not properly verified to match their labeling?

It seems like you would be 100% in favor of Israel's blockade, concerned only that Israel lacked the manpower and infrastructure necessary to eliminate the inspection bottleneck without risking shipments beneficial to Hamas. Is this correct?

 

[Peephole]

Prestige, the "we're just stopping weapon shipments"-excuse would carry a lot more weight, if Israel didn't also block food and construction materials (among others).

 

[quixotecoyote]

Prestige, the "we're just stopping weapon shipments"-excuse would carry a lot more weight, if Israel didn't also block food and contruction materials (among others).

Food is allowed in. It makes sense not to allow cement because Hamas had historically used it to build bunker systems[1] instead of civilian infrastructure like sewer [2] and water systems.


[1] http://www.jpost.com/Home/Article.aspx?id=80119
[2] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6498835.stm

 

[portlandatheist]

Let's take a look at what Israel actually DOES let in as aid to Gaza:

Over one million tons of humanitarian supplies were delivered by Israel to the people of Gaza in the past 18 months – that’s equal to nearly one ton of aid for every man, woman and child in Gaza.

http://www.cicweb.ca/scene/2010/06/israel_aid_to_gaza/

Gaza has a dysfunctional government and a culture that is so obsessed with Israel and its destruction, that it can focus on little else...hence the desperate need of massive aid.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

But-- but-- tens of thousands of people should have died, if that much aid got through! How come... ooooh, you're saying all those tonnes of food and supplies were delivered the easy, legal way, without fighting the Israeli Defense Force with iron pipes and hatchets! That's a kind of ingenious idea, actually, akin to just walking through the security checkpoint at an airport instead of trying to fight your way to your airplane with an iron pipe across the ground crew-only tarmac. I wonder why none of the activists have thought of it?

 

[thesyntaxera]

Ahh, so it's not a "war crime", it's just "criminal" and a "human rights violation".

Yes. Do you disagree?

And here I thought you were playing definitional shell games.

I know. That's part of the problem. You can't seem to grasp that people can define things differently.

Refresh my memory. What merger was I suggesting?

What if Israel was willing to concede >90% of the West Bank, all the Gaza Strip, Palestinian control over East Jerusalem and compensation for the lost property of Palestinian refugees? That seems like a good deal to me.

 

[thesyntaxera]

(emphasis mine)

thesyntaxera, you seem to believe that Hamas is a Bad Thing. If so, wouldn't you be eager to prevent any shipments that might strengthen their regime or enable their program? Including shipments labeled as "aid" but not properly verified to match their labeling?

It seems like you would be 100% in favor of Israel's blockade, concerned only that Israel lacked the manpower and infrastructure necessary to eliminate the inspection bottleneck without risking shipments beneficial to Hamas. Is this correct?

Considering the level of poverty in Gaza I would guess that none of the aid actually makes it to most people after filtering through Hamas. All the walling and blockading will only protect Israel from Hamas, it doesn't help the people inside who are subject to their rule. All Israel is doing is hurting innocent people who are then more susceptible to the propaganda being issued by Hamas. It's just one big self perpetuating cycle.

 

[Peephole]

Let's take a look at what Israel actually DOES let in as aid to Gaza:

http://www.cicweb.ca/scene/2010/06/israel_aid_to_gaza/

Gaza has a dysfunctional government and a culture that is so obsessed with Israel and its destruction, that it can focus on little else...hence the desperate need of massive aid.

Aid, that is being blocked.

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has relayed messages to Israel in the past week expressing anger at obstacles Israel is placing to the delivery of humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip. A leading political source in Jerusalem noted that senior Clinton aides have made it clear that the matter will be central to Clinton's planned visit to Israel next Tuesday.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/clinton-warns-israel-over-delays-in-gaza-aid-1.270882

Israel says it allows about 15,000 tonnes of humanitarian aid into Gaza every week.

But the UN says this is less than a quarter of what is needed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10199480.stm

Navi Pillay, the United Nations' human rights chief, called the blockade devastating in an August 2009 report. Pillay said it constituted collective punishment, illegal under international law.

Israel usually allows 81 items into Gaza, a list which is subject to revision on a near-daily basis. It is riddled with contradictions: Zaatar, a mix of dried spices, is allowed into the territory; coriander and cumin are not. Chick peas are allowed, while tahini was barred until March 2010.

"Luxury goods," things like chocolate, are prohibited altogether.

So are most construction materials, though Israel has relaxed this prohibition slightly over the last few weeks. The United Nations refugee agency has resorted to constructing houses out of mud because other building material are unavailable.

And those products allowed to enter Gaza are permitted only in modest quantities. In January 2007, Gaza received more than 10,000 truckloads of goods each month; by January 2009, that number was down to roughly 3,000.

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2010/05/20105319333613851.html

The collapse of the Gaza economy has led to a dramatic increase in poverty. An ICRC household survey conducted in May 2008 showed that, even then, over 70 per cent of Gazans were living in poverty, with monthly incomes of less than 250 US dollars for a family of 7 to 9 members (1 dollar per household member per day, excluding the value of humanitarian assistance which they may receive). Up to 40 per cent of Gaza families are very poor; with a monthly income of under 120 dollars (0.5 dollar per household member per day). On average, each person who does work – whether as a paid employee or running their own business – has to support their immediate family of 6-7 people and a few members of their extended family.

This increase in poverty has taken a heavy toll on the population's diet. Many families have been forced to cut household expenses to survival levels. Generally, people are getting the calories they need, but only a few can afford a healthy and balanced diet. Poor families often substitute cheaper alternatives such as cereals, sugar and oil for fruits, vegetables, meat and fish. For tens of thousands of children, this has resulted in deficiencies in iron, vitamin A and vitamin D. The likely consequences include stunted growth of bones and teeth, difficulty in fighting off infections, fatigue and a reduced capacity to learn.

Most of the very poor have exhausted their coping mechanisms. Many have no savings left. They have sold private belongings such as jewellery and furniture and started to sell productive assets including farm animals, land, fishing boats or cars used as taxis. They are unable to reduce spending on food any further. The declining living standards will affect the health and well-being of the population in the long term. Those worst affected are likely to be children, who make up more than half of Gaza's population.

Gaza's alarming poverty is directly linked to the tight closure imposed on the territory. Local industry and other businesses have to be allowed to rebuild, to import essential inputs and to export their products. But even that would take time. The crisis has become so severe and entrenched that even if all crossings were to open tomorrow it would take years for the economy to recover.

http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/palestine-report-260609

A Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO)/World Food Programme (WFP) qualitative food security assessment for Gaza in 2008 and early 2009 points to increasing food insecurity compared to 2007, said FAO food security adviser Erminio Saco based in Jerusalem; and according to the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics (PCBS) food acquisition and energy consumption in Gaza declined by 10 percent between 2005 and 2007.

Over the past 18 months the agricultural sector has been struggling to cope with an Israeli blockade on imports and exports, causing lower productivity and reducing access to affordable fresh food, according to FAO.

...

Children’s hygiene has also declined due to the lack of a consistent electricity supply since the blockade was instituted. Clothes washing and bathing has been limited, especially during the conflict, according to residents.

...

Wasting and underweight

The number of under-five children suffering from acute malnutrition - wasting (low weight for height) - in Gaza almost doubled between 2006 and 2008 from 1.4 to 2.4 percent, according to UNICEF. Wasting is considered a public health problem if the affected population exceeds 5 percent, but WHO is concerned by the significant increase.

In 2008, 2.5 percent of under fives were underweight (weight for age), according to WHO in Gaza.

...

There is a positive correlation between malnutrition and low meat (animal proteins) intake, low consumption of fruit, family size and income, according to UNICEF.

The amount of affordable fresh fruit and protein on the Gaza market has been significantly reduced due to the closures, according to OCHA. “The last shipment of livestock entered Gaza on 31 October 2008, and since the Hamas takeover in June 2007 livestock imports have been severely restricted,” said OCHA field officer Hamada al-Bayari in Gaza.

The director of all 56 primary healthcare centres run by the health ministry in Gaza, Fouad Issawi, said cases of stunting and anaemia increased in 2008 and 2009. Since 2007 the amount of anti-anaemia drugs - like ferrous carbonate (with vitamin C) and folic acid - required by primary health clinics had increased dramatically, he said.

“There was a rise in anaemia amongst children in our centres in 2008 and [this is] continuing,” said Adnan al-Wahaidi, director of Ard al-Insan Benevolent Association in Gaza, the main healthcare NGO supporting an estimated 16,000 undernourished children.

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/CB9A27EF05BB52408525759F0061B366