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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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It's damaging because it shows a lack of empathy.

Here is an example for you.

A father has lost his young child. At the funeral, someone approaches the father and tells him that his child is in a better place now.

The father gets extremely angry at the person for making that statement. The father doesn't see it that way. He doesn't think any young child should ever die.

The person that approached the father was trying to be comforting but the stress of the situation caused anger instead.
 
Actually it does not. It shows anger that her friend felt pain when she was murdered.

Really? I really didn't get that from the response she gave. I do read the anger, but to me it seems more directed at Natalie Hayward for asking a 'dumb' question. And that anger is completely misplaced. It shows a lack of empathy.
 
It says that to you (eta to Bruce); it does not say that to me. Neither of us are privy to the workings of her mind, so the most we can do is interpret it in the light of our own experience.

What none of us can do is to be definite about it.

Okay, then why use the statement against Amanda at all then? It has been repeatedly used to try and put her in a bad light.
 
Really? I really didn't get that from the response she gave. I do read the anger, but to me it seems more directed at Natalie Hayward for asking a 'dumb' question. And that anger is completely misplaced. It shows a lack of empathy.

This is completely normal behavior given the circumstances. Like many other things in the media, it was spun in an attempt to put Amanda in a bad light.
 
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As it happens I do not think this statement is significant either. This is one of those situations where hearing it is shocking to some. Perhaps I too lack empathy but I could see myself saying it perhaps: if I was shocked and tired and angry and the person asking the question was annoying me. Again I do not at all see we can read much into it. Perhaps that is just me

I do agree that the statement in itself isn't very significant. I didn't mean to imply that this statement is indicative of her guilt, because it's not (IMO).

But a statement like that is damaging in other ways though. It damages her public image for example.
 
Personally I think that she thought, and still thinks, she can talk her way out of anything, but that's just my personal opinion. Not to be relied on and not evidence.

If I were on her defence team I would do everything in my power to prevent her talking, the "What do you think, she ******** bled to death" type comments (cite) that she made are as damaging to her as are her email and her changing stories.


Or this: AMANDA KNOX CRYING CROCODILE TEARS
 
This is completely normal behavior given the circumstances. Like many other things in the media, it was spun in an attempt to put Amanda in a bad light.

Perhaps it's not abnormal behavior... but in this case I don't think the media needed to do much spinning.
 
I have always wondered why this comment has been viewed by some to be damaging to Amanda. She was under a lot of stress. She was angry that her friend was just murdered. Someone made a comment that Amanda thought had an obvious answer and the stress of the moment caused her to snap back.

We all do this when we are under stress or we feel that someone has asked a dumb question or made a dumb comment. Just read the responses on this board and you will see what I mean.

Yeah, there's always an excuse.
 
AK and RS could not have always been questioned together prior to 5 Nov.

Not always, but nearly always. In fact, during the trial the police complained about the fact that before their arrest it was almost impossible to get one of them alone...they were always together.
 
A person expressing a hope that a dead friend had not suffered is making a "dumb" comment? I think we'll have to agree to differ on this point, Bruce.
 
Here is an example for you.

A father has lost his young child. At the funeral, someone approaches the father and tells him that his child is in a better place now.

The father gets extremely angry at the person for making that statement. The father doesn't see it that way. He doesn't think any young child should ever die.

The person that approached the father was trying to be comforting but the stress of the situation caused anger instead.

And I would suggest, that from the 'tone' and 'body language' of his reaction, those around him could tell that's what was going on with him. That was not the impression made on those that heard Amanda say it...they found it callous. Now, personally, I will take 'their' impression since they were 'there' and 'experienced' it directly, whereas I was not and did not and neither was it so for any of Amanda's apologists.
 
Okay, then why use the statement against Amanda at all then? It has been repeatedly used to try and put her in a bad light.

Are not the words of one suspected (now charged and convicted) of a brutal crime (sexually aggravated murder) important?
 
A person expressing a hope that a dead friend had not suffered is making a "dumb" comment? I think we'll have to agree to differ on this point, Bruce.

Could this be one of those elusive cultural differences we heard about?
 
Personally I think that she thought, and still thinks, she can talk her way out of anything, but that's just my personal opinion. Not to be relied on and not evidence.

If I were on her defence team I would do everything in my power to prevent her talking, the "What do you think, she ******** bled to death" type comments (cite) that she made are as damaging to her as are her email and her changing stories.

I don't think that comments like that are indicative of culpability, but I'd totally agree that they were inappropriate, and can't have painted her an any sort of positive light.

And yes, I totally agree on the "perventing her from talking" point. As I've argued before, I think that pretty much the very first thing that AK's legal team should have done when they were appointed on the 6th November onwards was to essentially order AK not to write down or say anything that was in any way connected to the case*. That they seemingly did not do so (or perhaps that they didn't do so strongly enough) is, to me at least, a serious failure to protect their client.

And that leads me to a point about "best defence money can buy" arguments. Most people - however rich - rarely come into any contact with the criminal legal fraternity (and sorority!) unless and until they are charged with a criminal offence (or their son/daughter/husband/wife is charged). At that point, it's therefore difficult if not impossible for suspects or their families to know who is the "best" criminal lawyer to appoint. In a very short space of time - hours or even minutes sometimes - people have to pick a lawyer from a position of having very low knowledge of what they are looking for.

Therefore, regardless of how much one is willing to spend, choosing a defence attorney can in many ways be likened to "pinning the tail on the donkey". In these instances, it's virtually impossible to select "the best that money can buy" in any case. Last time I looked, criminal lawyers didn't publish their hourly rates online or in some sort of handbook, and nor were they ranked in league tables of success or competency.

So pretty much all that anyone can do - unless they happen to know a specific criminal defence lawyer whom they trust and admire - is choose from an undifferentiated list of accredited criminal lawyers. They may get lucky, they may not. Indeed, one of AK's attorneys (Carlo dalla Vedova), as I understand it, didn't even have a background in criminal law, but rather was selected based on his ability to speak English. And her other attorney, Ghirga, was (I believe) recommended by the Mayor of Perugia in the spirit of helpfulness - but Ghirga was also a town councillor, so maybe that's where the Mayor knew him from - and not from any stellar performances in a courtroom.

And I think I'm also right in saying that Raffaele's lead defence lawyer (Bongiorno) was often absent from court owing to political commitments. She was essentially a politician first and a practising lawyer second, and in my belief should never therefore have been chosen to represent a client in a long and complex murder trial. But defendants and their families get to choose their legal representation, and I wonder if Sollecito (and/or, more accurately, his father) were so busy being impressed by Bongiorno's status (and her first fee invoice) that they forget to ask themselves whether she was in fact best-equipped to conduct his defence effectively.

I wouldn't mind betting that if you asked people who were intimately acquainted with the criminal law system in Italy, they would tell you that there are dozens and dozens of practising criminal defence lawyers who are more highly regarded than Bongiorno or Ghirga (let alone dalla Verdova, who's not even a criminal lawyer by practice). There might even be some more highly-regarded criminal lawyers practising in Perugia...

* Although unless she'd retained a lawyer voluntarily on 3rd/4th November (which, incidentally, I'd argue she should actually have done), there would have been no legal adviser around to counsel her not to say things in public about the murder.
 
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This is completely normal behavior given the circumstances. Like many other things in the media, it was spun in an attempt to put Amanda in a bad light.

Normal? In 'what' universe?

What was 'spun'? She said what she said and she said it how she said it. What is there to spin aside from making endless excuses on her behalf in the hope that one might stick?
 
I have no intention of de-linking Mark's site. He is doing an excellent job. If Guede had been arrested and jailed after breaking into the school in Milan, he wouldn't have been roaming the streets, and he wouldn't have killed Meredith.

I'll repeat this part then:

Originally Posted by stilicho
Bruce, Chris and Charlie all link their blogs to this:

Rudy worked for the Perugian justice authorities. He murdered Meredith Kercher while under their employ and protection.

Since when do the Perugian justice authorities (whatever that means) hold sway over anything that happens in Milan? Show us the evidence. Who is it in Perugia that determines whether charges should be laid for a crime committed in Milan?
 
LondonJohn said:
And I think I'm also right in saying that Raffaele's lead defence lawyer (Bongiorno) was often absent from court owing to political commitments. She was essentially a politician first and a practising lawyer second, and in my belief should never therefore have been chosen to represent a client in a long and complex murder trial. But defendants and their families get to choose their legal representation, and I wonder if Sollecito (and/or, more accurately, his father) were so busy being impressed by Bongiorno's status (and her first fee invoice) that they forget to ask themselves whether she was in fact best-equipped to conduct his defence effectively.

No, you're not right. There were some rare exceptions she wasn't present (and one of those was due to illness....although she wasn't, it was a device ;) ). She was there for nearly all the court days and only missed 3 - 4 of them. And even on those, she was still directing, from afar.
 
And yes, I totally agree on the "perventing her from talking" point. As I've argued before, I think that pretty much the very first thing that AK's legal team should have done when they were appointed on the 6th November onwards was to essentially order AK not to write down or say anything that was in any way connected to the case*. That they seemingly did not do so (or perhaps that they didn't do so strongly enough) is, to me at least, a serious failure to protect their client.
Perhaps they did, and their client decided to ignore their advice?
 
Rudy worked for the Perugian justice authorities. He murdered Meredith Kercher while under their employ and protection.

If he was 'employed'...he didn't need to rob to get money then ;)
 
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