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Being bullied

As I have said repeatedly, bullying in school is equivalent to stalking in adulthood.
They are not the same. You can assert it all you want, but that won't make it true. Stalking is a complex issue itself and only shares a few similarities.

The person targeted has done nothing to deserve the inappropriate response.
There you go with the word "deserve" again as if it is somehow relevant. "Deserving" something is a moral issue, and I'm not interested in that. Not only have I never said that any victim "deserves" certain treatment, I have specifically stated that being bullied is morally wrong on the part of the bully. Why do you keep bringing it up? Seriously. Why do you insist on making this a moral issue and, in this instance at least, implying that I somehow think it's relevant? What are you hoping to accomplish?

Would you give the same advice to a woman who was being stalked?
No. First, Stalking <> Bullying. Second, I wouldn't give advice based on a single vague statement like that. If you want to talk about stalking, start another thread. This is about bullying.
 
To quote Clint Eastwood's character in Unforgiven, "deserve's got nothing to do with it."

I don't think anyone in this thread is claiming that people deserve to be bullied. There is an argument (boy, is there an argument!) about whether there is anything one can do to prevent or stop being bullied.

Exactly. To take it a step further, everyone agrees that there are steps that systems (schools, businesses) can take to reduce bullying. Everyone agrees that authority figures (bosses, teachers, parents) can take steps to reduce bullying. Everyone agrees that bullies need to be punished for their behavior.

Some of us are arguing that there are steps that some victims can take to reduce the chances of being targeted in the first place, to reduce the chances of being targeted again, and to break the cycle of bullying. This has been mistakenly construed as blaming the victim, but it's not. This has been mistakenly construed as disagreeing with premises in the prior paragraph, but that's incorrect as well. Some people cite instances where certain suggestions wouldn't work, such as being physically assaulted on the mean streets of Chicago, but that's not evidence that no tactics will ever work.

Unfortunately, all of this has prevented any meaningful discussion on what might work, and that's a shame.
 
So, because you, as a child, could not see any differences in your behavior, it must be completely random? Do you not understand that as children grow up, they change? Quite a bit, actually, so to say that everything was the same each year is simply not reasonable.

It is less unreasonable than believing I changed radically from one extreme to another, then back again, then back again, then back again. People change but not 180 degrees a year during the summer for fifteen years!

More importantly, are you saying that it would be "blaming the victim" to examine what was different in those three grades to see if there are any strategies people can adopt to avoid being bullying?

I'm saying there wasn't anything different about me, apart from a height increase. I was there. I know. Did you even read what I wrote? I changed schools with the same people a couple of times. One place they bullied, another they did not. It is far less unreasonable to assert that it might be random than to assert that there must be deeply hidden but profound radical changes at constant intervals. If a change was that radical it would have been observable. And certainly not that frequent.
 
They are not the same. You can assert it all you want, but that won't make it true. Stalking is a complex issue itself and only shares a few similarities.

They are incredibly similar. Both are an inappropriate response to an acquaintance. In both cases the bully/stalker is focused on the target to a larger degree than they are to other people around them. Both the bully and the stalker might be rude or insensitive to others but towards the target that is amplified. In both cases, the intent of the bully/stalker is to have power over the targeted person.

In both cases the target is less than a person, their feelings or needs are never considered. Their actions are misrepresented. Their reactions are misinterpreted.

In both cases action against the bully/stalker escalates the situation.

In both case the person who is targeted has little recourse. Authority figures downplay the event, give "common sense" advice or the targeted person is in some way blamed. A teacher telling a bully to leave a child alone is as effective as a restraining order on a stalker. It might create temporary distance but it does not stop the attention.

In many cases the only way for the targeted person to escape the attention of the stalker/bully is to physically move away.
 
It is less unreasonable than believing I changed radically from one extreme to another, then back again, then back again, then back again. People change but not 180 degrees a year during the summer for fifteen years!
Why do you say it must be a 180 degree turn? I argue that the differences can be subtle and maybe not even noticed by the child. I'll give a few examples. I'm not arguing this happened to you or that it's even common. I present these hypothetical situations to demonstrate that the changes need not be radical.

First, think growth spurts. Many of us had them, and suddenly we found ourselves awkward and clumsy. Maybe one summer a kid sprouts up quickly. When school starts, they have races in P.E. to determine team captains. The awkward kid trips over his own feet - something he never did in prior years. He gets laughed at. He gets picked last for teams. In the hallway some bully decides to trip him, and the kid falls. His personality is not to fight back, and thus the cycle begins: Day One the formerly "normal" kid is a social outcast.

The next year he has grown into his skin. Maybe over the summer he went to camp and played a lot of sports. The first day of school the next year he doesn't win the race, but he's pretty fast. He gets picked first instead of last. Nobody trips him. The school year proceeds differently even though he's the same kid who, if he got tripped, wouldn't retaliate. Only now he's the fast kid everybody wants on their team. He was just as fast last year, only nobody realized it because he was always getting tripped by the bullies.

Another example. Today I was discussing this at lunch with a business partner. He said that when they switched to the New Math in elementary school, he was stumped. He just didn't get it even though he was fine with the old math (think adding numbers by "carrying" versus going left to right from highest place value to smallest). The same kid then became unsure of himself and got ridiculed as being dumb. The cycle starts.

Or take my four year old. He has a pragmatic speech delay and a couple of minor social delays. When I take him from preschool, where he gets assistance, to daycare, sometimes the group is engaged in an activity. Even though he knew the kids well, he was visibly shaken when having to enter an organized group activity. Fortunately, these kids didn't bully him, and I worked with him to help him get over his fear. Now when we show up, he quickly assesses the situation, spots a place to sit, and joins right in. Same kid, minor difference.

I could easily see his visible reluctance and stress leading to kids pulling the old, "You can't sit at our table" routine. This would compound his stress, and next time around it would be even worse. Just a small amount of growth on his part makes that less likely.

And before anybody jumps my ass, I fully realize that these situations could still result in the kid getting bullied or not bullied. Social structures are like that. Life is like that. But that doesn't change the fact that small differences can have big results.

I'm saying there wasn't anything different about me, apart from a height increase. I was there. I know.
That's fine. Do you still act like a five year old? Or did you suddenly change when you got your high school diploma?

I happen to believe that it's very hard for people to judge differences in themselves even when they are looking for them. I also believe that children are even less capable. I also don't believe that as a child you were critically examining yourself for small changes that affected your place in the social structure.

Kids change. If you want to argue that you were an exception, that's fine. Teachers see it. Coaches see it. Parents see it. When the kid is given a fresh start, such as starting a new school year or going to camp, they have an opportunity for aspects of their personalities to come out where they didn't come out before. That's a good thing.
 
They are incredibly similar.
I said they were similar. Incredibly? No. I'm not interested in debating this issue. If Wiki can go through a definition of stalking without calling it bullying, that's good enough for me. It's a form of abuse, but it's not the same. I'm just not going down that road.

In both cases action against the bully/stalker escalates the situation.
Another assertion without a basis in fact. Every situation is different. Actions against bullies and stalkers can have all sorts of effects from escalation to escape. I know that doesn't fit with your Victims Are PowerlessTM mantra, but that's your problem, not mine.
 
I said they were similar. Incredibly? No. I'm not interested in debating this issue. If Wiki can go through a definition of stalking without calling it bullying, that's good enough for me. It's a form of abuse, but it's not the same. I'm just not going down that road.

I have shown that there is a strong similarity and your response is "wiki doesn't use that word." Interesting. You are aware that I (or anyone) could go in, edit wiki and make moot your argument?

You refuse to look at the similarities because it negates your theory that some after-school-special speech and a few talks with the teacher can make everything right.
 
I have shown that there is a strong similarity and your response is "wiki doesn't use that word." Interesting. You are aware that I (or anyone) could go in, edit wiki and make moot your argument?
Yes, I am. Are you suggesting that I rewrote it or something? Did I also make a separate entry for Bullying that didn't mention stalking? The two simply share similarities. That's it. Get over it.

You refuse to look at the similarities because it negates your theory that some after-school-special speech and a few talks with the teacher can make everything right.
I never made any such arguments. You have repeatedly and deliberately lied about it. Why? Why do you keep lying?

Why do you keep avoiding the questions asked by simply snipping them out like they never existed? When called on your lies, you just bully your way along telling more lies about other people. For example, I wrote, "Not only have I never said that any victim "deserves" certain treatment, I have specifically stated that being bullied is morally wrong on the part of the bully. Why do you keep bringing it up? Seriously. Why do you insist on making this a moral issue and, in this instance at least, implying that I somehow think it's relevant? What are you hoping to accomplish?"

You, of course, avoided those questions and proceeded to further lie about my position. I say lie because I have explicitly told you otherwise. It ceases to be a straw man when you deliberately continue when called on it.
 
Yes, I am. Are you suggesting that I rewrote it or something? Did I also make a separate entry for Bullying that didn't mention stalking? The two simply share similarities. That's it. Get over it.

I always forget how tone-deaf you are to conversation and subtext. *sigh* No, I am not suggesting any such thing. I am saying that it is not a legitimate source for a rebuttal.

I never made any such arguments. You have repeatedly and deliberately lied about it. Why? Why do you keep lying?

Why do you keep avoiding the questions asked by simply snipping them out like they never existed? When called on your lies, you just bully your way along telling more lies about other people. For example, I wrote, "Not only have I never said that any victim "deserves" certain treatment, I have specifically stated that being bullied is morally wrong on the part of the bully. Why do you keep bringing it up? Seriously. Why do you insist on making this a moral issue and, in this instance at least, implying that I somehow think it's relevant? What are you hoping to accomplish?"

You, of course, avoided those questions and proceeded to further lie about my position. I say lie because I have explicitly told you otherwise. It ceases to be a straw man when you deliberately continue when called on it.

This soup needs just a touch more hyperbole, a pinch more martyrdom and a slow boil for another 10 - 12 pages. Let me know how that turns out.

TTFN.
 
I always forget how tone-deaf you are to conversation and subtext. *sigh* No, I am not suggesting any such thing. I am saying that it is not a legitimate source for a rebuttal.
Wiki is a fine source for rebuttal when it comes down to what people generally think about something, and people don't generally equate stalking and bullying. Here's the deal. If bullying and stalking are so similar, why are you even bringing up stalking? Just refer to bullying and make your point. But the reality is that you are making comments about stalking rather than bullying because of the differences. Why else bring it up?

We see far too often people wanting to argue by analogy. They fail to make their points effectively on the subject at hand, so they compare it to another subject hoping to get a, "Well, obviously that's absurd, so your original argument must be valid." It's ********. Analogies can be good for explaining something because sometimes relating it to something similar will help put the pieces together.

What you did is assert (not really argue because you presented little else) that my suggestions would not work for any victim of bullying. I refuted that, so you decided to come back with, "Well, would you give that advice to a stalker? Because stalking is the same as bullying, and obviously it wouldn't work for stalking."

I'm not playing that game.

This soup needs just a touch more hyperbole, a pinch more martyrdom and a slow boil for another 10 - 12 pages. Let me know how that turns out.
Once again, you come in, spew some lies, make some piss-poor arguments, then skip away without responding directly to what you're asked. There's a name for that type of behavior.
 
I don't have any easy answers about any of it. But blaming someone after the fact, and attacking them as weak because they had a painful time growing up, is definitely not the answer.

Neither is dragging it around with you for the rest of your life.

When there are no clear answers, or when you've learned everything you can from a bad situation, the best thing to do is move on. The worst thing to do is rehash it endlessly and let it affect your present relationships.

Bullying happens. It is in our best interests to try and prevent it, but sometimes we can't. Sometimes there are things a target can do to stop the bullying, sometimes there aren't. As parents it's our job to try and help the children in our care to develop the best tools they can to avoid becoming a target. As adults its our job to exercise those tools.

There are times when it is appropriate to "stand up" to aggressive behaviour and there are times when it is not. It's up to each individual to decide how to respond in each situation. Occasionally, on the advice of others or on reflection, we might decide we were too passive or too aggressive. Next time we might choose to act differently.
 
Much has been written in these forums about bullying, the bullies, the origins and the consequences. What is hardest to write about is how it feels specifically to be bullied. Everyone knows that it feels bad, that it breaks the spirit, that it hurts. But how to describe exactly the way it feels?

Imagine a hard rubber hammer. The business ends are about two inches in diameter and smooth. Imagine four smaller, similar hammers. Imagine the sharp pain as it connects with your forehead and the dull pain it leaves behind.

Imagine that one day at school you are an ordinary blend-into-the-background kid. A little too bookish to be popular, a little too pudgy to be athletic, a little too shy to be funny. You make a gaffe, seemingly small. You smile at a popular boy or an unpopular girl. You answer a question in class no one else can answer. You pick up someone else’s notebook. The offended party pulls out the large hammer and hits you hard, above the left eyebrow. Your eyes water and for a few seconds the world is in slow motion.

What do you do? If you complain to the teacher, the teacher will wonder why you’re complaining about such a small bruise, the wielder of the hammer will just get angrier, and there is always the code of the adolescent. You do nothing. By tomorrow, you say, this will have disappeared and once more you can scurry along the hallways in blissful anonymity.

But the next day, the offended party is openly carrying her hammer and has armed several of her friends.

In gym class, you suit up in the ugly little tunic required and get in line. You stumble a little landing from the vaulting horse and a hammer hits your knee. You miss a shot at volleyball and the hammer lands on your shoulder. In the showers, your chest is covered with small, round bruises.

But at least classes are a refuge. The teacher would notice the swing of the arm and hear the connecting thud. It’s the trip down the gauntlet in the hallways between classes, where the fresh bruises are collected and the old bruises revived.

And for the following months, that is what school is. You read Thoreau and Gandhi, and try to practice passive resistance. They have not read the same books and don’t know that your seeming meek acceptance is supposed to make them stop. The blows still land on your back, your head, your legs, your arms. You tell your parents, and they explain that this is a part of growing up, that you need to learn to defend yourself. You tell the gym teacher and she tells you to be nicer to them and stop showing off how smart you are. But at least in class, the hammers are neatly stowed under the desks.

One day in class, your favorite class, one kid slyly pulls out her hammer, leans over cautiously, and whacks you on the elbow. The pain paralyzes you. The other kids smell the blood in the water and lift their hammers, glancing cautiously at the teacher. And the teacher watches with a foolish, embarrassed grin on his face as the blows come fast and hard. The last refuge is gone. No other student will come near you for fear of contagion, the teachers look away; the only place to hide is your room at home. And there you stay until the next day of misery.

If you are very lucky, it is near the end of the school year and the next year is a new school.

You begin your new career in your new school with your head down, your mouth shut, and your wall built sturdily around you. Because you know that in the book bags with the high school emblems and the back packs of these new peers, the hammers rest, waiting.


LibraryLady,
I was not in your school, in your class, or in your hallway, but I still want to apologize and tell you how very sorry I am that this happened to you. It was wrong, it was cruel and it was utterly unforgiveable. Forty+ years ago in my Catholic grade school we picked on David. To us, then, he seemed a little slow, we thought he was ugly. I can still remember (painfully now and with tears in my eyes) his pleading "Why are you all doing this to me?" as we meted out that days torture. We were crafty enough that the nuns never caught us.

Since then I have asked a few of my friends from the old days their feelings on it now looking back. One said "He was asking for it, he wouldn't leave us alone" the other said "We probably helped him out by doing it" (I think he was thinking in terms of making him stronger). I never could reconcile myself to anything but feeling extremely sad and ashamed of what I had participated in back then. Over the intervening years I kept returning to the question "What can I do to make amends for the cruelty I participated in back then?" I decided an apology was long overdue. I wrestled with the question whether I was doing it to assuage my own guilt at having participated in the cruelties or was it for David? When I examined my motives I always came back to one thought, how lonely, how sad it would be, to suffer as he suffered (or as anyone suffers who is bullied for that matter!) to still feel alone, no apology, to live without any real comfort for the cruelty one suffered, to have the memory of it, and nothing to balance it against.

It wasn't until about ten years ago that I finally got the courage up to seek him out, not in person, but over the phone. I learned through his brother that David was doing amazing work with people who were suffering from psychological traumas themselves. It took a few days, but I finally got the courage up to call David directly and apologize for what I/we had done. He said he had no recollection of our cruelty. I did not press him on the point. I realized I had probably made a mistake in calling. Now I worry whether I might have opened up old wounds that were best left closed off. I don't know, I hope not. I know though, in my heart of hearts that he deserved to be apologized to. As do you. Frankly, I think you and David deserve to be apologized to face to face by each and every last one of us (I consider us cowards).

I have become a more thoughtful, introspective person since then. I still tear up with the memory of it, but now they are tears for all who have suffered at the hands of the cruel. I am acutely aware of cruelty around me, and I speak out against it whenever I encounter it or hear of it. It will never be possible to erase what happened to you LibraryLady or to David, but I acknowledge the wrongness of it and I apologize for being one of them (the cowards). You will be in my prayers from now until the day I pass on.

LibraryLady I am sorry. charles
 
Well put, LibraryLady.




Maybe a lot of people here know how it feels. But does everyone really know?

If the parents and teachers do, they've either forgotten or don't care. I have to wonder if they think it's better to be relieved of one's spirit, to become insensitive and compliant because existence is easier that way.

I still wonder if my parents and others would have understood what it was like if I could document harassment in a way that they could experience. Just telling a few anecdotes never conveyed the impact of cumulative attacks. But a video compilation might get through to them and compel them to do something about it.

Cameras are much smaller now. Maybe it's finally possible.

Those of us who weren't bullied will never know what it felt like to be bullied. That is a fact. We can sympathize, empathize and think about it all we want. We simply will never know. I learned that from the Southpark episode on the "n" word.

I am sorry you were bullied. It was wrong.
 
A bully is a coward, same as anyone who thinks torture is ok

Those stupid bullies had no idea how cool we would become, or how cool we probably were then if they weren't too vicious to notice.

Those stupid bullies were actually cowards. It took way more courage for you or anyone else being bullied to show up the next day than it did for them. Don't ever forget it.

I am sorry you were tortured, it was wrong. charles
 
I think what's empowered bullies more than anything is the "always walk away" mantra as it's almost certainly the victims who will take that mentality to heart. As if it's even possible to always walk away, but regardless of that it's almost setting up consequence free bullying and some miserable childhoods.
 
http://the-f-word.org/blog/index.ph...-your-school-bullying-stories/comment-page-2/

The site above is about fat women. Not to be rude, but it's called The F-Word - Food, Fat, Feminism. There are 53 responses sharing stories of bullying, and most seem to be from women. Here are some stats I compiled. I'm really tired, so I may not be as accurate as I would have liked. Also, these stories were just stories, not answers to questions, so they are subject to interpretation.

Did not retaliate or otherwise defend themselves: 14
Note: Most seemed to imply this after a fashion, but I used my judgment to say "I can't tell" so the number is lower than I think it really is.

Considered retaliation but concluded it would make things worse: 3

Retaliated physically/verbally and it made no difference: 1

Retaliated physically/verbally and it made the situation worse: 1
This was with her brother

Retaliated physically/verbally and it made the situation better: 6

Told to ignore it, did so and things got worse: 3

Told to ignore it, did so and things got better: 0

Considered telling authority figures but didn't believe it would help: 2
I think this was more common than I reported

Reported bullying to authority figures and it made the situation worse: 0
I didn't consider being called a "snitch" making things worse

Reported bullying to authority figures and nothing happened: 9
This number is probably too low

Reported bullying to authority figures and it made the situation better: 4

Authority figures seemed to be aware and did nothing: 5
This is probably too low.

Authority figures seemed to be aware and helped: 2

Made new friends and it made no difference: 1
"Joined extracurricular activities"

Made new friends and it made the situation worse: 0

Made new friends and it made the situation better: 4

Switched schools and it helped: 0

Switched schools and it made thing worse/same: 2

Was fat, lost weight, and bullying continued: 0

Was fat, lost weight, and bullying stopped/lessened: 1

No, this is not going to be published in PubMed.
 
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I think what's empowered bullies more than anything is the "always walk away" mantra as it's almost certainly the victims who will take that mentality to heart. As if it's even possible to always walk away, but regardless of that it's almost setting up consequence free bullying and some miserable childhoods.

This same issue arises when people discuss self defense. You get a certain number of people who think the best method of self defense is to "just not be there!"

The point is; why should people have to live their life according to the anti-social behaviour of a few ass*****? Sometimes we have to be in places or situations where some jerk thinks it's okay to attack us. My answer is, istead of worrying about every minute of every situation of my life and trying to predict the future according to ass*****, I will simply live my life and deal with the morons as they appear on the horizon.

Always walking away from bullies means a lot of kids, and adults, miss out on a lot of great stuff. If they didn't, if everything they missed was god aweful, the bullies would be doing them a favour and they wouldn't be victims.

So, walking away, or not being there, might work for some people but it doesn't work for me and hasn't since I was quite young. I was involved in a lot of fights in school and almost everyone of them I could have walked away from or just not been there but, in the end, it isn't in my personality to allow jerks to control my life.
 

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