Merged Israel Attacks Palestinian Aid Flotilla, According To Reports

[Danmotron]

When you assault people with kitchen knives, ship pipes and a set of tools, those objects then tend to be referred to as "weapons."

What is raiding a ship in international waters?

 

[One Skunk Todd]

Do you have an independent source verifying these photos?

No. Although it has been mentioned several times in other posts from (I think) different sources, all Israeli sources I imagine.

It has been alleged that they they were taken in 2006.

I personally don't think the camera date stamp is a compelling argument against the validity of the photos.

Were the protestors also wearing bullet-proof long johns? If not, why not shoot them in the legs?

My understanding of police and military training is that a gun is not for incapacitating people. If you are using your firearm you are trying to stop the threat against you by killing the attacker as quickly as possible.

If the protesters were, as you allege, wearing these jackets and that the attackers could have been aware of it, the vests didn't work very well as some activists were shot in the chest.

I don't allege they were wearing the vests. I have seen reports that the attackers on the ship wore these vests and I have seen pictures of vests reportedly seized from the ship, but I have not seen any photos of any passenger on the ship actually wearing one of these vests.

Why were the Israelis using live ammunition at all?

Because people were trying to kill them, or at least they believed people were trying to kill them.

Other posts have mentioned press members being shot. If true this is probably an unfortunate side-effect of the soldiers having to make snap decisions about something being pointed at them. I think in both cases the reporters are said to have been pointing cameras.

 

[carlitos]

What is raiding a ship in international waters?

In this context, it's either a red herring or a tu quoque.

I still can't believe that you won't answer a simple question about whether you find a story credible. This evasion is epic in its inanity.

As if my opinion, which is subject to change given whatever information i currently have, had any bearing whatsoever on whether or not a story or piece of evidence is factual. If you want to turn this back on the people presenting articles rather than dispute the evidence itself then I'm afraid you're just going to bore me to tears.

I didn't say your opinion had any bearing on whether it was factual. I asked for your opinion. What's the big deal?

 

[Doctor Evil]

All of which are from controlled images from the IDF. Your eyes thus far have largely only seen what the IDF has wanted you to see - a country which engaged in an illegal blockade and raid. So you trust a regime engaged in knowingly illegal activity over a victim. All right. She could be wrong. After all she is just one witness and might have a different POV than others. But it didn't make invading the flotilla in international waters okay. Weaponry or not, the playing up of crude implements as an excuse to attack and fatally kill people onboard in an illegal raid is not a fair argument, and is clearly hedged to play on people's racism towards arabs as violent thugs. When in this case, even accepting they had weapons, they had every right to resist an illegal raid in international waters. It would be different if they were in actual israeli territory but they were not.

Also I'm seeing a lot of metal ship pipes and kitchen knives in those photos of 'weapons.' One photo even shows a set of tools typically used for ship repair. What?

So much wrong here.

Are you trying to claim that the images of the passengers attacking the boarding soldiers were fakes? Otherwise, I fail to see the relevance as to whether Mrs. Berlin is lying or not. She authoritatively claimed they did not have weapons. If she was not in a position to know, she should have says so. Instead she chose to lie.

As for your other claims. Israel and Hamas are at war, and that makes the blockade legal. (Perhaps not wise, but legal.) The claim about international water is also a red herring. It is permitted to enforce a blockade in international water when the ship has been warned. It is not permitted to board a ship in national water of other countries.

Finally, even accepting your dubious claims that the blockade is not legal. The passengers were not only attacking the soldiers in order to subdue them. They continued further. For instance, they have thrown a captured soldier from the top deck of the ship. This alone permits the soldiers to use force to defend themselves.

 

[yairhol]

well then provide evidence for them being mercenaries and i am convinced.

Can you feel the knot getting tighter and tighter?

The IDF has identified one of the passengers aboard the Mavi Marmara , which navy commandos commandeered earlier this week, as the ringleader of a group of mercenaries who were recruited from a city in northwest Turkey, according to new details from the military’s ongoing investigation of the Gaza flotilla. The IDF identified a group of about 50 men – of the 700 on board – who were well-trained and were stationed throughout the ship, mostly on the upper deck, where they laid an ambush for the IDF soldiers who rappelled onto the deck from helicopters.

The members of this violent group were not carrying identity cards or passports. Instead, each of them had an envelope in his pocket with about $10,000 in cash. The defense establishment suspects the funding for the mercenaries may have come from elements within the Turkish government.

According to sources within the defense establishment, one member of the group, who appears to have been the ringleader, traveled to the city of Bursa in northwest Turkey and allegedly recruited mercenaries for the flotilla there.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177452

 

[Safe-Keeper]

What is raiding a ship in international waters?

That evasion didn't work the first twenty times it was put forth in this thread, and it won't work now. Nor does it have anything to do with what you replied to: when I attack someone using an object, be it an AK-47, screwdriver, club or cheese slicer, that object, by definition, becomes a weapon.

Either way, it does not matter if the fighting on board was legal or not. Fighting back when a superior force boards your ship is just plain stupid, regardless of their intent or the validity of your cause. If your ship is boarded, you stand down. It's what merchants do in the Aden area when their ships are seized by pirates. It's what the US did when they had a ship seized by the North Koreans. Civilized people (I stress "civilized", because, well...) surrender, take it easy, and wait for the relevant authorities to work it out. They don't grab pipes, knives and axes and try to lynch the people boarding them. Doing so is about at the same level of knuckle-dragging as "demonstrators" who throw rocks and Molotov cocktails at policemen and set parked cars on fire.

 

[One Skunk Todd]

I wonder if they have good enough position data that they could drag the path of the ship with magnets and try to recover the guns? Anybody know how deep the Mediterranean is in that area?

 

[DC]

Can you feel the knot getting tighter and tighter?



http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177452

yep that sounds already much more convincing.

 

[Doctor Evil]

I wonder if they have good enough position data that they could drag the path of the ship with magnets and try to recover the guns? Anybody know how deep the Mediterranean is in that area?

Sorry, but it makes as much sense as this:

 

[portlandatheist]

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/06/04/israeli-commando-shot-activists-aid-convoy-line-medal/

In other news, Israel may be giving a Medal of Valor to the "brave" IDF soldier who killed 9 activists.

He was indeed very brave and worthy of recognition.

Looking to his side, he saw three of his commanders lying wounded – one with a gunshot wound to the stomach and another with a gunshot wound to the knee. A third was lying unconscious; his skull was fractured by a devastating blow with a metal bar.

As the next in the chain of command, S., who has been in the Shayetet for three and a half years, immediately took charge.

He pushed the wounded soldiers up against the wall of the upper deck and created a perimeter of soldiers around them to begin treating their wounds, he said. He then arranged his men to form a second perimeter, and pulled out his 9 mm. Glock pistol to stave off the charging attackers and to protect his wounded comrades.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177445

I would also say the peace militants were brave as well, bringing knives to a gunfight with the IDF in a bid for martyrdom.

 

[JediKnight2.01]

Flotilla Raid Was Not “Bungled.” The IDF Detailed Its Violent Strategy In Advance.[/URL]

Don't you think it's normal to make plans for what could happen in any military operation?

 

[One Skunk Todd]

Sorry, but it makes as much sense as this:

Yeah I think you're right. I thought for sure I remembered hearing about magnets being used to drag for metal objects but I couldn't find a single google reference.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Looking to his side, he saw three of his commanders lying wounded – one with a gunshot wound to the stomach and another with a gunshot wound to the knee. A third was lying unconscious; his skull was fractured by a devastating blow with a metal bar.

As the next in the chain of command, S., who has been in the Shayetet for three and a half years, immediately took charge.

He pushed the wounded soldiers up against the wall of the upper deck and created a perimeter of soldiers around them to begin treating their wounds, he said. He then arranged his men to form a second perimeter, and pulled out his 9 mm. Glock pistol to stave off the charging attackers and to protect his wounded comrades.

That is indeed quite commendable.

 

[carlitos]

He was indeed very brave and worthy of recognition.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177445

I would also say the peace militants were brave as well, bringing knives to a gunfight with the IDF in a bid for martyrdom.

Wow. Thanks for posting that.

 

[Skeptic]

He was indeed very brave and worthy of recognition.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177445

I would also say the peace militants were brave as well, bringing knives to a gunfight with the IDF in a bid for martyrdom.

They were outraged because the Jews who boarded the ship were not more compliant with their demands.

 

[Thunder]

They were outraged because the Jews who boarded the ship were not more compliant with their demands.

"The IDF released on Friday an audio reproduction of the moments before Monday's raid on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla."

reproduction?????

why did they have to reproduce anything?

why not just release the unedited audio and video?

what do they have to hide?

 

[Skeptic]

I hate the Monday-morning quarterbacking involved. Do you really think IDF general staff meetings should go like this:

Chief of Staff: What shall we do?
Commander of the Navy: I don't know. I'm stumped.
Commander of the Marine Commandos: Well, I had no idea either, but I've check www.randi.org and the scales fell from my eyes on exactly how we must act and how the troops on the ship must fight!

 

[One Skunk Todd]

He was indeed very brave and worthy of recognition.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177445

I would also say the peace militants were brave as well, bringing knives to a gunfight with the IDF in a bid for martyrdom.

In post 1593, beachooser quotes an article that states 9mm pistols were not used by the IDF commandos. Something not quite gibing there.

 

[bigjelmapro]

Oh you ridiculous person - the IDF confiscated their videos, and some of the people who were shot to death through the head were people holding video cameras....

What a vivid imagination you have.

 

[Thunder]

I hate the Monday-morning quarterbacking involved. Do you really think IDF general staff meetings should go like this:

i hate the fact that most of you wanna act like ammatuer investigators and attempt to figure out EXACTLY what happened, using edited/censored/filtered/reproduced video and audio.

let the damn investigation take place.