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Merged Israel Attacks Palestinian Aid Flotilla, According To Reports

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re: tramp steamer

Relevant quote is at 0:36. A Chicago news classic, and another excuse to use the word "forecastle."



ETA -
It's being offered as an explanation for the remaining missing but bear in mind that this is an ongoing investigation by the UN at this point.

Is that a yes or a no? Do you believe that the IDF threw wounded people overboard, yes or no? Does that sound credible to you?
 
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In an amusing development, the Irish ship Rachel Corrie is steaming for Gaza, claiming to have on board items "including wheel chairs and cement." Not sure what else is on board, and they are unwilling to stop and verify that it is only an aid shipment. They intend to hit Gaza.

1. Leon Klinghoffer would be amused, were he not shark bait, I am sure.
2. Note, the manifest "includes" wheelchairs. What else is on board?
So, the captain is full of bold talk, and has chosen to go looking for trouble. Israelis have offered to take ship, inspect, and forward on the actual humanitarian aid.

Refused.

So, the Rachel Corrie tries to run the blockade. What to do?

1. Sink it, so that it may enjoy the same infamy as its namesake.
2. Drop a bulldozer on it via fast rope.

1200 ton vessel. Nice sized tramp steamer. Hmmm, tramp steamer, Rachel Corrie ... not going there.

DR

Such a big stink is raised about whatever contraband materials 'might' be aboard the vessels, but bear in mind israel never made the water pipes and several other things that are actually used to make rockets into contraband.
 
Is that a yes or a no? Do you believe that the IDF threw wounded people overboard, yes or no? Does that sound credible to you?

The IDF deliberately ignored SOS calls and shot people with kill-shots that were not holding weapons, such as at least 2 people holding video cameras. It sounds like a plausible explanation at this point given that there are still people missing and unaccounted for from the massacre. These people did not simply vanish into thin air. What happened to them?
 
I'm still not hearing a yes or a no. Is this too hard for you? Why make vague insinuations? Say what you mean.
 
The IDF deliberately ignored SOS calls and shot people with kill-shots that were not holding weapons, such as at least 2 people holding video cameras. It sounds like a plausible explanation at this point given that there are still people missing and unaccounted for from the massacre. These people did not simply vanish into thin air. What happened to them?

plausible?
 
Here's the related story to the witness reports of wounded being thrown into the sea, anyway: http://todayszaman.com/tz-web/news-...n-9-threw-wounded-into-sea-witnesses-say.html

Kevin Ovenden of Britain, an activist on the ship that arrived in İstanbul on Thursday, also said a man who had pointed a camera at the soldiers was shot directly through the forehead with live ammunition, with the exit wound blowing away the back of his skull. There were also claims that Israeli official reports on the number of people killed are untruthful. Speaking to journalists at Atatürk International Airport shortly after his return, Yıldırım said:

Until now they have returned nine dead bodies, but our list is bigger. There are people missing. We saw 38 injured who were brought back to us by doctors after the attack. Now they are saying there are 21 people who have been injured.

Yıldırım was on the main passenger ship, the Mavi Marmara, which the Israeli navy attacked at the start of its raid. Another witness, Yücel Köse, who was on the ship Gazze, repeated Yıldırım’s allegations of missing people, saying:

The Mavi Marmara was bombed right in front of our eyes. They threw the wounded into the water.

Köse said the soldiers were upset when some of their men were held by activists aboard the Mavi Marmara. Turkey’s Council of Forensic Medicine completed examining some of the bodies. The findings have not yet been announced. It will be a few weeks before the experts get back all the results, but initial statements from doctors confirm Yıldırım’s account of the shootings at close range. According to İHH official Ömer Yağmur, who spoke to the doctors, 19-year-old Furkan Doğan was killed by four bullets to the head, all fired at close range, and one bullet into his chest, also fired at close range. He said Doğan was studying at a private high school in Kayseri and hoped to become a doctor in the future. The council also confirmed yesterday that eight of the nine bodies brought back from Israel belong to Turkish citizens. The ninth person was identified as a US citizen of Turkish origin. More than 500 activists who were brought to Turkey were examined on Thursday by 120 forensic medicine experts and their assistants.

Activist İdris Şimşek, who also arrived on Thursday, claims that four wounded activists were thrown into the sea. Şimşek also stated that there was immense psychological pressure on the activists. Şimşek said they expected some harassment but had no inkling of what would happen, noting that they were not expecting an armed attack. He also mentioned that there were no weapons, including a small Swiss army knife that some foreign press organs claimed was on the ship. He stated, as many other activists have, that the person who was waving a white flag to surrender was shot by soldiers. He said that he saw many people lying in puddles of blood after the soldiers opened fire. Erol Demir, another activist on the Mavi Marmara, said they had footage of the chaos and the carnage on the ship, emphasizing that the footage will show the real face of Israeli soldiers to the entire world:

They even shot those who surrendered. Many of our friends saw this. They told me that there were handcuffed people who were shot.

All activists stated that Israeli helicopters sprayed cold seawater onto the ship for three hours. Hakan Albayrak, a journalist from the Yeni Şafak daily who was also on the ship, said:

It was an outright massacre, what Israel did out there. They attacked us in international waters. We protected our ship. We had no weapons. I think we lost more people.

Activist Özlem Şahin Ermiş said 60 soldiers took her hostage. The prisoners were harassed by violent attack dogs and some were badly bitten. She also noted that they were not fed any food or given anything to drink during their initial interrogation on the ship. The İHH said the activists Çelebi Bozan, Osman Kurç and Aydın Ataç were definitely still missing. These individuals might still be in a hospital in Israel, İHH officials said. [/quote]
 
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To the Westerners posting here, something to consider. In the Arab world in particular, the concept of "face" is much more powerful than the concept of "truth." This is why blaming the Jews works, and why people believe in conspiracy theories at a higher rate over there. Just a thought.
 
posting complete copyright protected articles also in quotes violates the MA
 

For those who can't read Kraut: Hamas is now actively delaying transportation of the supplies. They must be quite hungry


"Kraut" - nice...

Besides that, the German article takes an interesting view - that of a non-Hamas Palestinian, who states it makes no difference if the aid gets through since in general, any aid is given to (translated) “Those (people) who are not close to Hamas, do not see any of the aid or gifts”. Further examples are given such as the use of cement (up from $7 to $50 in price BTW since embargo) which is allotted by lottery (via the Housing Ministry), and surprisingly, the only person in an area who won the lottery to rebuild his house, was a Hamas supporter.

Apologies for the late response, but I have been out.
 
Are you going to answer my simple yes / no question?

Because there are few simple yes or no answers in an ongoing investigation.

I tend to take the word of the aid workers over the IDF, but I want an objective third party investigation into this. At this point, there are flotilla survivors reporting seeing people who surrendered being shot, and wounded being tossed overboard along with issues such as 38 wounded being brought back by flotilla doctors to the makeshift flotilla emergency room but only 21 released from israel hospitals. I too would like to know what happened to the people who are still missing. I want concrete evidence on it and a thorough investigation - so far we have eyewitness reports but as with any eyewitness reports, objective investigation can disprove them.

Sorry to deny you a 'simple yes/no' to something that has been 'alleged' but that's the way these things work.
 
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British activist and flotilla survivor Greta Berlin alleging that the weapons onboard were planted by IDF after the raid: http://www.rferl.org/content/Interview_We_Are_Not_Terrorists_Gaza_Activist_Says/2058141.html

Lets see. We have all seen the videos where the ship passengers use clubs to attack the Israeli soldiers. We know that some of the soldiers were stubbed and two were shot. We also seen said metal clubs presented after the ship was taken. Therefore, my conclusion is that Mrs. Berlin is simply lying.

It is as if she is asking us: Who you believe, me or your lying eyes?

My eyes, Mrs. Berlin, my eyes.

Now, why did you bring that up? Do you find her convincing?
 
Because there are few simple yes or no answers in an ongoing investigation.

I tend to take the word of the aid workers over the IDF, but I want an objective third party investigation into this. At this point, there are flotilla survivors reporting seeing people who surrendered being shot, and wounded being tossed overboard along with issues such as 38 wounded being brought back and only 21 released from hospitals. I too would like to know what happened to the people who are still missing. I want concrete evidence on it and a thorough investigation - so far we have eyewitness reports but as with any eyewitness reports, objective investigation can disprove them.

Sorry to deny you a 'simple yes/no' to something that has been 'alleged' but that's the way these things work.

Yes, it was a very chaotic situation, feelings are strong on both sides, and a lot of allegations are being made, some of which will later be verified, some of which will be proven correct after investigation.

I asked if you found it credible. Surely there is a yes or no answer to your own perception of this allegation? You really have no opinion whatsoever, just throwing this tidbit out there?

Allegation - Israeli soldiers threw wounded people overboard.

1 - Danmotron finds this allegation credible.
2 - Danmotron does not find this credible.

Answer?
 
Lets see. We have all seen the videos where the ship passengers use clubs to attack the Israeli soldiers. We know that some of the soldiers were stubbed and two were shot. We also seen said metal clubs presented after the ship was taken. Therefore, my conclusion is that Mrs. Berlin is simply lying.

It is as if she is asking us: Who you believe, me or your lying eyes?

My eyes, Mrs. Berlin, my eyes.

Now, why did you bring that up? Do you find her convincing?

All of which are from controlled images from the IDF. Your eyes thus far have largely only seen what the IDF has wanted you to see - a country which engaged in an illegal blockade and raid. So you trust a regime engaged in knowingly illegal activity over a victim. All right. She could be wrong. After all she is just one witness and might have a different POV than others. But it didn't make invading the flotilla in international waters okay. Weaponry or not, the playing up of crude implements as an excuse to attack and fatally kill people onboard in an illegal raid is not a fair argument, and is clearly hedged to play on people's racism towards arabs as violent thugs. When in this case, even accepting they had weapons, they had every right to resist an illegal raid in international waters. It would be different if they were in actual israeli territory but they were not.

Also I'm seeing a lot of metal ship pipes and kitchen knives in those photos of 'weapons.' One photo even shows a set of tools typically used for ship repair. What?
 
When will the IDF release unedited footage of the flotilla incident?

Sorry if I refuse to watch any edited/screened/censored footage on the IDF Youtube site.
 
Also I'm seeing a lot of metal ship pipes and kitchen knives in those photos of 'weapons.' One photo even shows a set of tools typically used for ship repair. What?
When you assault people with kitchen knives, ship pipes and a set of tools, those objects then tend to be referred to as "weapons."
 
Yes, it was a very chaotic situation, feelings are strong on both sides, and a lot of allegations are being made, some of which will later be verified, some of which will be proven correct after investigation.

I asked if you found it credible. Surely there is a yes or no answer to your own perception of this allegation? You really have no opinion whatsoever, just throwing this tidbit out there?

Allegation - Israeli soldiers threw wounded people overboard.

1 - Danmotron finds this allegation credible.
2 - Danmotron does not find this credible.

Answer?
As if my opinion, which is subject to change given whatever information i currently have, had any bearing whatsoever on whether or not a story or piece of evidence is factual. If you want to turn this back on the people presenting articles rather than dispute the evidence itself then I'm afraid you're just going to bore me to tears.
 
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