Merged Israel Attacks Palestinian Aid Flotilla, According To Reports

[Thunder]

Shooting in the head is deemed an automatic warcrime.

Yes. Shooting an unarmed civilian in the head is indeed a war crime.

Funny how you fail to comprehend that. Or....maybe not.

 

[RoboTimbo]

evidence to YOUR claim they where hired mercenaries.
the Israelis were smart enough not to claim something like that according to your link.

again

Since you ignore evidence, what evidence would you accept?

 

[DC]

sorry, what?!

They claim, without evidence and with video evidence to directly contradict their claims, that soldiers fired into sleeping civilians the moment they landed on the boat....

Do you or do you not consider that a lie, and if so, is it not a disgusting lie and one very unbecoming of a humanitarian aid organisation?

I want to be very clear on this...

well based on the videos i have seen and the time line i imagen, yes its a lie.
But i don't want to claim it to be a lie. i haven't seen all videos, i wasn't there.
thee are still witnesses that claim shots have been fired before a soldier landed on deck etc. i dunno if thats true, on the other hand those could be the warning shots i missed.

i dunno. things went out of hand, people died. the videos i have seen, confirm the IDF claims. and not the claims from the activists. but again, i havent seen enough to really claim this or that.

 

[DC]

again

Since you ignore evidence, what evidence would you accept?

what is the evidence you claim i ignore? you link didn't claim HIRED mercenaries.

 

[JihadJane]

Your contention is that your life is only in danger if you're shot? There is absolutely no other way for your life to be in danger? Interesting.

No, which passengers were shot, by whom, where were they and what were they doing?

Since you ignore evidence, what evidence would you accept?

Which "evidence" are you referring to?

 

[RoboTimbo]

what is the evidence you claim i ignore? you link didn't claim HIRED mercenaries.

Is there another kind?

 

[Thunder]

I wonder when Israel is going to put ALL of the video footage on Youtube, and not just the cut/edited/censored footage?

 

[DC]

Is there another kind?

well that is actually true.

so then its indeed not your claim. and still your link does only say the Israeli government considers them to be mercenaries of the al-Qaeda terror organization without providing evidence.

am i suposed to belive that claim without evidence?

you do, i ask for evidence.

 

[Dr. Tobias Fünke]

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,698688,00.html

For those who can't read Kraut: Hamas is now actively delaying transportation of the supplies. They must be quite hungry

 

[fuelair]

Passengers recount mid-sea horror

e.g:

Dimitris Gielalis, from Greece, aboard the ship Sfendoni

"Suddenly from everywhere we saw inflatables coming at us, and within seconds fully equipped commandos came up on the boat.

They came up and used plastic bullets, we had beatings, we had electric shocks, any method we can think of, they used."

He/they certainly have limited imaginations - I can think of 40 or so methods they didn't use just sitting here typing.

 

[RoboTimbo]

well that is actually true.

so then its indeed not your claim. and still your link does only say the Israeli government considers them to be mercenaries of the al-Qaeda terror organization without providing evidence.

am i suposed to belive that claim without evidence?

you do, i ask for evidence.

Then ask the people who are claiming it. I mentioned mercenaries. You asked for evidence of that. I think there is more than ample evidence that they were mercenaries, based on the links in this thread. I don't think it matters for purposes of this discussion who provided the money to hire them.

A claim was made that "They had agreed not to use violent methods of resistance prior to setting of for Gaza" by Kotatsu. Maybe you should be asking for evidence of that claim.

 

[JihadJane]

He/they certainly have limited imaginations - I can think of 40 or so methods they didn't use just sitting here typing.

How amusing.

 

[Belz...]

I have yet to find this Waldo. Entertaining to use the term 'polarized' here. If you wish to comment on the matter, then so be it.

I don't have a definite opinion because a) both sides of the conflict do wrong b) both sides of the argument are adversarial and c) the situation in the middle east is not simple.

 

[Skeptic]

Some claim the blockade-running hysterics is an attempt to deligitimize Israel's existence.

I think it's the other way around.

It's those who already think Israel has no right to exist -- those who offer "peace plans" such as the "one-state" "solution" or the "right of return" etc., which they know full well mean the end of Israel; those who claim anything but absolute and immediate Israeli adherence to any Arab demand is "right wing extremism"; those who claim they are "just anti-zionist, not antisemites" as they support, for example, the "Organ Harvesting" claims -- that are hysterical.

Any sovereign nation does as much and worse to protect its citizens. But Israel, in their view, has no right to exist -- the Jews are nothing but evil colonialists invaders who stole the land from the innocent Palestinians. So it might have a right not to have it citizens killed in large numbers as long as they do nothing but the absolute necessary to avoid it.

But to live in safety in their own country, well, that's out. Pirates! Occupiers! Why can't they just leave Europe Palestine to the people it really belongs to and go back where they came from, Palestine Europe? (Sorry, got confused with the 1930s there for a moment).

 

[JihadJane]

Flotilla Raid Was Not “Bungled.” The IDF Detailed Its Violent Strategy In Advance.

 

[Thunder]

It's those who already think Israel has no right to exist -- those who offer "peace plans" such as the "one-state" "solution" or the "right of return" etc., which they know full well mean the end of Israel;

no serious individual actually calls for 5 million Palestinians to move into Israel.

at most, 100,000 or so Palestinians will move to Israel under the "Right of Return". the rest will move to the West Bank or stay where they are.

 

[Skeptic]

In related news, Jay Nordlinger points out the following (can't link directly to the thing so I am posting a long quote -- hope this is OK with the mods...)

The other day — flotilla and all — I was thinking about Shimon Peres. The old Israeli political warrior was in Davos, talking to a few of us. This was in 2005. I looked up [FONT=&quot]my journal scribbles on [/FONT]this conversation. Peres was saying that Gaza should one day be ripe for tourism: It has “43 kilometers of the most beautiful beaches in the Mediterranean.” He speculated that the Jewish settlements could be converted to resorts.

Ha-ha. That all assumes that the Palestinians — certainly Palestinian leaders — want a decent life. Want life itself. The Israelis withdrew from Gaza, just as the world wanted them to. They withdrew unilaterally — most of the world wanted that, too. They left the Palestinians infrastructure: gifts. And did the Palestinians get on with the business of life? How’s tourism going, on those beautiful Mediterranean beaches?

Again, ha-ha. The Palestinians, some of them, smashed the infrastructure: Better rubble than greenhouses from Jews. And then, Palestinians made war against Israel, launching rockets at civilians: housewives as they hung out their wash, children going to school, blah, blah, blah — same old stuff. These Palestinians thus proved that their problem was never with “settlers” but with Israel itself — the very existence of that state.

Palestinians in Gaza and elsewhere can have a perfectly normal — even a lovely — life, just the second they want it. But they have to want it. And they have to coexist with Israel. People say constantly, “The Arab-Israeli conflict is complicated, very complicated.” You will get approving looks whenever and wherever you say that. But you will not necessarily be correct.

(By the way, that Peres conversation is pretty interesting. Some of my fellow conservatives write him off as a ridiculous, naive dove. In truth, he is more complicated — to coin a word — than that.)

Nordlinger is right. The forces to dismantle Israel, the green-red alliance, are on the whole those Palestinians who wish it destroyed, either per the "staged plan" (as PLO thinks) or immediately (as Hamas prefers), together with the "progressive" useful idiots whom think, for the best reasons of peace and happiness and equality and so on, that the Jews have no right to a state and Israel has no right to exist.

While the solution might be complicated, the reasons for this alliance are not.

 

[yairhol]

Yes. Shooting an unarmed civilian in the head is indeed a war crime.

Funny how you fail to comprehend that. Or....maybe not.

Why do you say unarmed after you've seen so many videos of the activists armed with metal bars, stun grenades, wooden sticks, knives, etc?

 

[Oliver]

Why do you say unarmed after you've seen so many videos of the activists armed with metal bars, stun grenades, wooden sticks, knives, etc?

Well, you sound as if people trying to protect Aid for people in need should not protect their freight.

Anyway: What health-threatening "Weapons of Mass Production" did the Israeli Military find? Snickers? M&M's? Kinder-Überraschungseier?

 

[bit_pattern]

Two objective account of the whole debacle from Australian journalist Paul McGeough:

Suddenly, sound bombs and tear gas exploded

In their wake

Details of the scuffle are a lot more nuances than some video footage suggests, yes commando's were attacked, but at the same time other activists tried to protect them from attack. Well worth the read.