Merged Israel Attacks Palestinian Aid Flotilla, According To Reports

[bit_pattern]

It seems you have already made up your mind.

JJ posted a video in which everyone was saying 'people are injured' and you're sold without seeing, hearing, or even knowing what the injury was, or even how it happened.

I've seen footage that contradicts the IDF chronology, and I have read now at least half a dozen eye witness accounts that also contradict it and tell pretty much the same story. I don't know who JJ is or what video you refer to but that's what I am basing my judgment on so far. I find i interesting that th IDF released only a very short video, why haven't they released footage from before they boarded and after the scuffle, because footage I've seen from after the scuffle you can still hear gunfire in the background. As for me making up my mind already, what about you? Do you concede that maybe the IDF's account doesn't add up? Or have you already made up your mind and simply accepted the official line?

 

[WildCat]

evidence?

It says so right on the front page?

Apparently they like to have contests to see who can get the most honks for their "Free Palestine" banner.

Oh yeah, this group is defunct now... because they moved to Facebook.

 

[IDB87]

Do you really believe this bull? It's kinda gross you might do.

Don't have sauce on these, but it's all I could find in a few minutes. Do those look like any caliber rifles or firearms that you know of?

 

[fallout]

Come again? This is worthy of a war? Really?

Well what me and you may think is worth of war is completely insignificant. But in the real world out there, wars start because of tensions followed things like this one. A blatant crime and infringement of international law. A ship being raided by a bunch of unprepared marauders in international waters, and opening fire because they weren't trained to expect resistance onboard. And then the marauders kidnap all the crew of these ships, jail em, isolate em from contact with the world, abuse em by punching and elbow smashing their faces after they are jailed. It only shows how embarassing the operation was, and how desperate is Israel to defend a blockade that it's obviously illegal , imoral and far from the best way of neutralizing the armed/guerrila branch of the Hamas.

So yes, answering your question if they weren't manipulating the thin line between being declared war upon and succeeding on keeping everything under the rug and getting away with such a crime, there would be serious concern of armed conflict. Let's not forget that turkey will scout next flotillas with it's naval forces.

 

[bit_pattern]

How many of these eyewitnesses contradict the Israeli government's offer to dock at Ashdod?

No. The intent was quite clear, to challenge the blockade, but that doesn't justify the massively disproportionate overreaction displayed by Israel

 

[JihadJane]

Passengers recount mid-sea horror

e.g:

Dimitris Gielalis, from Greece, aboard the ship Sfendoni

"Suddenly from everywhere we saw inflatables coming at us, and within seconds fully equipped commandos came up on the boat.

They came up and used plastic bullets, we had beatings, we had electric shocks, any method we can think of, they used."

 

[fallout]

[qimg]http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/1118/92057911.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/4840/98574239.jpg[/qimg]

Don't have sauce on these, but it's all I could find in a few minutes. Do those look like any caliber rifles or firearms that you know of?

Im tired of seeing these images and footage. This is the selected few footages that Israel made public, shows only what seems to be fake guns and the footage of the "terrorists" ramming em with metal bars and etc. Still they arent honest as to release a draft on an inquiry about the shootings, the dead by fire arms and etc. All they do is gather all the kitchen's pointy objects and fotograph as an assembly of the "terrorist's weapons".

 

[IDB87]

I've seen footage that contradicts the IDF chronology

Would you mind sharing these videos in the correct chronology? I'm sorry, but I don't have a lot of time to do that tonight, but I guess I can go over the whole thread again and look for them and try to put them in order.

and I have read now at least half a dozen eye witness accounts that also contradict it and tell pretty much the same story.

What is contradicted? What is their story?

I don't know who JJ is

(JihadJane)

or what video you refer to

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5990587&postcount=993

I find i interesting that th IDF released only a very short video, why haven't they released footage from before they boarded and after the scuffle, because footage I've seen from after the scuffle you can still hear gunfire in the background.

They have released several videos:


(Up to you whether you choose to believe this)

As for me making up my mind already, what about you? Do you concede that maybe the IDF's account doesn't add up? Or have you already made up your mind and simply accepted the official line?

Still waiting for more evidence, thanks.

 

[fallout]

The guns the activists used were taken from the Commandos they managed to detain.

No one is claiming (that I'm aware of) that there were firearms aboard the MM.

So is it paintball or live ammo? And it seems far ludicrous your assertion that the only shots fired was from the evil terrorists from the flotilla who managed to jack guns from the poor and humanitarian innocent israelli commandos.

 

[stilicho]

No. The intent was quite clear, to challenge the blockade, but that doesn't justify the massively disproportionate overreaction displayed by Israel

Paintball guns?

Yours must have been a joke post.

 

[WildCat]

WTF? Cast Lead was a humanitarian travesty, up to 1000 civilians killed, illegal use of WP in civilian areas etc

Thank you for proving me right. You think Hamas should get a seaport, and then be able to rain rockets down on Israel with impunity.

Israel, oddly enough, thinks differently.

Nobody knows, Isreal won't tell. We do have an idea of what IS allowed into the territory, and the list is very small

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8654337.stm

We do know no one is starving to death in Gaza, and that there is adequate medical equipment. So sorry that they don't get everything their little hearts desire, comes with electing internationally recognized terrorists as your government. I wonder when the next election is?

The Palestinian's didn't attack in 1967.

No, the countries those territories were part of, Egypt and Jordan, did attack Israel. Along with Syria, Morocco, Tunisia, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and Sudan. Despite the border being "the 1967 border". Their goal was to destroy Israel, pure and simple. Take the territory for themselves, divvy up the spoils. Expel the Jews, if not just slaughter them all.

What has changed since then bit_pattern? Has Fatah abandoned all thought of war with Israel? Has Hamas suddenly renounced terrorism and pledged to stop randomly launching missiles at Israeli cities? How many Arab states recognize Israel?

 

[IDB87]

Passengers recount mid-sea horror

e.g:

Dimitris Gielalis, from Greece, aboard the ship Sfendoni

"Suddenly from everywhere we saw inflatables coming at us, and within seconds fully equipped commandos came up on the boat.

They came up and used plastic bullets, we had beatings, we had electric shocks, any method we can think of, they used."

This is after the other Commandos were attacked on the MM. Why take another chance?

 

[JihadJane]

Are the peace activists inherently more truthful than the Israelis? If so, why?

Than the Israeli military, certainly.

Many reasons. Here are a couple of contextual ones:

- Because they aren't being accused of committing an unprovoked act of war and murder.

- They haven't killed and wounded civilians in International Waters, abducted civilians, mistreated them and stolen their property.

 

[stilicho]

Im tired of seeing these images and footage. This is the selected few footages that Israel made public, shows only what seems to be fake guns and the footage of the "terrorists" ramming em with metal bars and etc. Still they arent honest as to release a draft on an inquiry about the shootings, the dead by fire arms and etc. All they do is gather all the kitchen's pointy objects and fotograph as an assembly of the "terrorist's weapons".

What if they were peace activists and not "terrorists"? Why were peace activists attacking people with metal bars? What aspect of peace activism involves hitting people? Can I join? I have a nice piece of pipe and I want to be a peace activist too.

 

[IDB87]

So is it paintball or live ammo? And it seems far ludicrous your assertion that the only shots fired was from the evil terrorists from the flotilla who managed to jack guns from the poor and humanitarian innocent israelli commandos.

What are you on about? The Commandos had sidearms, but they went in with paintball guns and non-lethal weapons like stun guns and tazers. Only when three or so of the first commandos on the ship were beaten did they use live ammunition on the activists, and that was from the second helicopter.

From JihadJanes link:

Andre Abu-Khalil, Al Jazeera cameraman,

"First they [the Israelis] tried to come by helicopter and tried to come down on the main deck. But the Turkish people were gathering on the rooftop and they managed to grab three of the soldiers, which led to a second helicopter to come and start shooting live bullets on the people."

 

[bit_pattern]

Would you mind sharing these videos in the correct chronology? I'm sorry, but I don't have a lot of time to do that tonight, but I guess I can go over the whole thread again and look for them and try to put them in order.

I'm about to head off to work, but have a read of that Al Jazeera link JJ just posted, that sounds very much like the time line I had in mind. The boat attacked with sound grenades and rubber bullets, which caused the initial injuries, followed by commando's landing on th deck, th scuffle broke out, then the IDF began firing down on the crowd with live ammunition from a second helicoptor

 

[JihadJane]

This is after the other Commandos were attacked on the MM. Why take another chance?

Posters above have argued that passenger provocation is proven as the cause of the commandos' violence because passengers on boats that offered only passive resistance or none at all were not submitted to violence.

 

[fallout]

Explain to me why Hamas should get a seaport again?

How many countries consider Hamas a terrorist organization? If you can be honest about it, of course.

 

[IDB87]

Than the Israeli military, certainly.

Many reasons. Here are a couple of contextual ones:

- Because they aren't being accused of committing an unprovoked act of war and murder.

Act of war against whom? Stop tugging at my heart strings.

 

[JihadJane]

What are you on about? The Commandos had sidearms, but they went in with paintball guns and non-lethal weapons like stun guns and tazers. Only when three or so of the first commandos on the ship were beaten did they use live ammunition on the activists, and that was from the second helicopter.

From JihadJanes link:

Andre Abu-Khalil, Al Jazeera cameraman,

"First they [the Israelis] tried to come by helicopter and tried to come down on the main deck. But the Turkish people were gathering on the rooftop and they managed to grab three of the soldiers, which led to a second helicopter to come and start shooting live bullets on the people."

i.e the soldiers murdered the civilians.