• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

Status
Not open for further replies.
Reading Perugia-Shock from the beginning is quite interesting, isn't it?

About bleach and cleanup and luminol and footprints, etc. - can bleach be diluted with water to wash away footprints with blood or does it have to be full strength? Did anyone mention that they noticed the smell of bleach when entering the flat on November 2?

What's all this about bleach? To read you all, one would think it's only possible to clean something with 'bleach'. What's that all about?

Bleach doesn't form any part of of the prosecution case or the Judges' Motivations Report. Both talk about 'cleaning', but don't mention bleach...except Dr Stefanoni mooting an opinion that the kitchen knife was cleaned with bleach, but that's all. The only people who keep going on about bleach is the FOA and it's one big straw man.
 
Somewhat off-topic, but inspired by many of the posts here, and it seems like the place to find the international legal eagles: In the U.S., we all know that if we are arrested we can request an attorney and refuse to answer questions from police (although a number of decisions seem to indicate that police can discuss the case with each other in the defendant's presence to try to get a reaction from him). But other countries do not have this protection. So if you are arrested in Italy, France, the UK (where defendants in custody are said to be "assisting authorities with their inquiries") and almost anywhere else, how do you behave? You say "I want a lawyer," and the cops say "Gee, I want a million euros." You say "Call the U.S. Embassy," and they say "We can't find the number." You say "I want this meeting recorded," and they say "Oh, we have good memories." You say "I want a translator," and they say "We'll make sure you understand." You say "I refuse to answer questions," and they say "Oh, yes you will." I'm not talking about some place where they torture you in a dungeon. I'm talking about a place where professional cops are following their system's rules. Suppose someone in Knox's situation when they started accusing her at her first interrogation had just kept repeating, "I had nothing to do with this and I have nothing else to say." What would the likely consequences have been? Personally, I can imagine saying almost anything to get out of the box and then trying to fix it later, which I recognize might be the worst thing I could do. Is there a right answer here?


[FONT=times new roman, serif]
[/FONT]


Irrelevant. Neither Knox nor Sollecito were under arrest when they were questioned.
 
Meredith's body was not moved after her death.

The photos of Meredith's body show small round droplets of blood on her bare breasts. She was on her back, with her bra pushed above her breasts. She had an aspirating wound in her neck causing her blood to spray into the air and fall back down onto her body. The blood droplets landed on her bra and on her bare breasts, proving that her bra was removed before she died.


The evidence doesn't show that Meredith's body was moved hours after her death. I believe she was moved a few feet immediately after she was no longer able to fight. Guede moved her out of the pool of blood so he could sexually assault her. When she was still breathing, her bra was pulled up exposing her breasts. At this time blood was spraying into the air from the wound in her neck and falling back down onto the bra and her bare skin as Guede cut her bra off of her body and sexually assaulted her. Meredith's sexual assault was not staged by Amanda and Raffaele. Rudy Guede's DNA was found inside Meredith's body. That evidence would be impossible to stage.

Guede moved Meredith away from the large puddle of blood. Meredith was still bleeding profusely after Guede moved her. There was significant blood transfer onto the duvet.


I want to caution you before you view these photos. The photos are graphic in nature but are necessary to prove that significant amounts of Meredith's blood were transferred to the duvet.

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/duvet.html

So, clearly You've not only not read the Massei Report, you've not read the Micheli Report either. All these reports you've not read and yet, you're an expert.

In the meantime, thanks for repeating the defence argument, which wasn't accepted by the court. It's only use is as a point of trivia, not fact.
 
Was that argument presented in court by the prosecutors?

Actually, the prosecution believed this to be the case (that is because in their reckoning, the pair returned at a later time in order to clean and took off their clothing to do so...so as to limit the spread of evidence). Massei disagreed. Instead, he had them committing the assault and murder barefoot, with the staging/partial clean-up following that almost immediately, then with Amanda returning in the morning to clean up loose ends and add finishing touches. Both have good reasons for their perspective, so it's a case of you pays your money you takes your choice.
 
Last edited:
No offense intended to anybody. But we learn here, for example, that the UK has no written constitution and that rights are bestowed by the government (even King John's signature on the Magna Carta was extracted at swordpoint), that France retains the Napoleonic Code which gives great power to an independent prosecutor, etc. Maybe in practice modern European states do strive to protect the rights of defendants. But many Americans, including Americans who have lived abroad, have the strong impression that foreign governments can unilaterally impose authority over individual citizens that would be unheard of or subject to lawsuit and appeal in the U.S. The fact that in Italy a defendant can apparently be locked up for a full year without being charged is one example; in the U.S., they can be held for a few hours, and even after arrest the defendant is guaranteed a "speedy" trial unless he chooses to waive that right. Bail is almost automatic except in the most terrible cases. And criminal trials don't take summer vacations. No one who has dealt with it up close would ever claim that the U.S. legal system is perfect. But my question had to do with how police abroad are required to treat suspects. Am I correct in inferring that everywhere in the western world, when a defendant requests an attorney he must be given one, and when he refuses to answer questions the police must stop asking them? If that's true, I am reassured.


Not true. The UK has rights and rules encoded in legislation. The only difference is they're not incorporated in one master document. In addition, there is also the European Bill of Human Rights which the UK is signed up to.

In Italy, there is no 'bail', as such. They have their equivalent and most people, even those charged with murder are free while all legal proceedings take their course. Amanda, Raffaele and Rudy are exceptions rather then the rule and were remanded because of the combined danger of flight risk, with the fact the crime was violence with a sexual element, which in Italy is regarded as a major red flag for re-offending. In other words, it was one of the 'more serious crimes' that you mention.

As for when a suspect requests a lawyer, sure, but they have to be a suspect first...and then make the request formally. Neither was the case with Amanda and Raffaele.
 
Last edited:
Irrelevant. Neither Knox nor Sollecito were under arrest when they were questioned.
So they were free to walk out at any time? And they knew that? Or they had no legal protection before they were arrested?
 
yes they were free to walk out until they became suspects: Knox was not even asked to be there on the 5th
 
Somewhat off-topic, but inspired by many of the posts here, and it seems like the place to find the international legal eagles: In the U.S., we all know that if we are arrested we can request an attorney and refuse to answer questions from police (although a number of decisions seem to indicate that police can discuss the case with each other in the defendant's presence to try to get a reaction from him). But other countries do not have this protection. So if you are arrested in Italy, France, the UK (where defendants in custody are said to be "assisting authorities with their inquiries") and almost anywhere else, how do you behave? You say "I want a lawyer," and the cops say "Gee, I want a million euros." You say "Call the U.S. Embassy," and they say "We can't find the number." You say "I want this meeting recorded," and they say "Oh, we have good memories." You say "I want a translator," and they say "We'll make sure you understand." You say "I refuse to answer questions," and they say "Oh, yes you will." I'm not talking about some place where they torture you in a dungeon. I'm talking about a place where professional cops are following their system's rules. Suppose someone in Knox's situation when they started accusing her at her first interrogation had just kept repeating, "I had nothing to do with this and I have nothing else to say." What would the likely consequences have been? Personally, I can imagine saying almost anything to get out of the box and then trying to fix it later, which I recognize might be the worst thing I could do. Is there a right answer here?


[FONT=times new roman, serif]
[/FONT]

Irrelevant. Neither Knox nor Sollecito were under arrest when they were questioned.

Hello Fulcanelli, given your extensive knowledge of this case and the Italian legal system I think you can help clear something up for me.
When exactly did RS/AK become suspects and when were they informed of their right to have an attorney present during any further questioning?
 
Well "keep your hands where the police can see them" is probably not relevant in the uk
 
lawyers

So they were free to walk out at any time? And they knew that? Or they had no legal protection before they were arrested?

Amanda asked if she needed a lawyer. Raffaele may have also asked about a lawyer, and he asked to see his father. Naturally Amanda's and Raffaele's accounts of their interrogations are different from the police's accounts.

Dr. Giobbi testified that he wanted to bring both of them in that night, saying that he was mathematically certain, according to Perugia-Shock. However, this issue was a point of dispute on the previous thread (whether the police did as Dr. Giobbi wanted or not). It is possible that the police failed to tell Amanda that she was expected to come in.

It is known from Judge Matteini's words that the police took Amanda into custody before Edda arrived because they were afraid she would leave the country.
 
I am entertained at the fact that you think Amanda and Raffaele would have hopped around the cottage.

If Amanda and Raffaele had just committed a horrible murder, the last thing on their minds would have been to hop around to avoid leaving shoe prints.

There are no prints in the room from them. Not one. So are you trying to say that Amanda and Raffaele hopped around as they were participating in the murder?

Believe what you want. It's just not logical.

How did Rudy get back to Meredith's room without leaving shoeprints? How did Rudy get to the bathroom from Meredith's room without leaving shoeprints? Hopping, you say?


ETA: Bruce, please, pay attention to the brackets in the quote reply box...it's difficult to read your responses when I'm not sure who's said what...thanks.
 
Amanda asked if she needed a lawyer. Raffaele may have also asked about a lawyer, and he asked to see his father. Naturally Amanda's and Raffaele's accounts of their interrogations are different from the police's accounts.

Dr. Giobbi testified that he wanted to bring both of them in that night, saying that he was mathematically certain, according to Perugia-Shock. However, this issue was a point of dispute on the previous thread (whether the police did as Dr. Giobbi wanted or not). It is possible that the police failed to tell Amanda that she was expected to come in.

It is known from Judge Matteini's words that the police took Amanda into custody before Edda arrived because they were afraid she would leave the country.

I believe I'm right in saying that there is no right in Italy for people to have their legal counsel present during witness interviews. In this case, this would cover all of AK's/RS's interactions with the police up to around 6am on 6th November (although, in passing, I'd continue to argue that AK should have been read her rights by around 1am that night).

However, since witness statements are given freely and without obligation, there's nothing to prevent a person from interrupting witness interviews in order to consult with legal counsel outside of the police station. And of course a person can also be fully briefed by his/her legal counsel prior to attending the police station, if desired.

And this is why most of the spotlight on access to legal representation is narrowly focussed on suspects who have been arrested and held in custody - since it's at this point that suspects both a) need legal advice and protection, and b) are in a difficult position to gain access to such counsel.

Here's a very interesting article from the European Criminal Bar Association regarding the "interesting" attitudes that its members seem to have encountered among Italian police surrounding access to legal counsel.

http://www.ecba-eaw.org/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=981&Itemid=31

It contains the following section (my highlights):

Access to a lawyer after being arrested or brought to a police-station or prison

The suspect has a right to immediate legal assistance. If the police, however, do not want the suspect to be assisted, they simply do not allow him to call his lawyer or they question him as a witness, since witnesses do not have the right to have legal assistance during questioning. A distinction, however, must be made between the investigation by the police on the one hand and the investigation by prosecutors in subsequent stages of the proceedings on the other.

The police tend to restrict the right to legal assistance, especially in the first stages of the proceedings, in order to get as much information as possible from the suspect. A public prosecutor would never explicitly dare to do that. Very often, however, lawyers are silenced and not allowed to speak during an interview of the suspect before a public prosecutor. An example of questioning the suspect as a witness can be found in the following murder case.
The suspect entered the police station as a witness at 15:00h. He got out at 7:00h the following day charged as a suspect and arrested and brought to jail. According to the written record of the interrogation he made a confession at about 5:00h after having been visited by a doctor and having been given two psychotropic drugs (Didergot and Aurorix). The lawyer was only called so that he could be given the written record of the interrogation. The written record, however, turned out to be fundamentally different from what was actually said and recorded on tape. The suspect never actually said that he had killed the victim and simply but incoherently answered in a confused way the questions of the public prosecutor. Notwithstanding the fact that the suspect at trial withdrew his confession, he was sentenced to 21 years mainly on the ground of the confession.


And here's a second link from the same organisation:

http://www.ecba-eaw.org/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=982&Itemid=31

which contains the following - also illuminating - passages (my highlighting):

Caution and the right to silence

The suspect should be warned that his statements might be used against him in a future trial (Art. 64 of the CCP). He should always be reminded that he has the right to remain silent, although if he does remain silent the proceedings will continue anyway. If these rules are violated, a statement made by the suspect cannot be used in evidence. In practice, the suspect is not always warned that everything he says during the interrogation can be used against him in a future trial. If he is assisted by a lawyer during the interrogation, his statement can still be put in evidence during the trial.

The suspect has the right to silence (Art. 64 c. 3 lett. b) and Art. 27 c. 2 Constitution, Art. 63 c.1 CCP, Art. 198 c. 2 CCP), of which he has to be notified prior to every interrogation. In practice, however, the police put a lot of pressure on the suspect to get a confession.


Presence of a lawyer during police interrogation

A lawyer can be present during police interrogations. In practice, however, the police try to prevent the lawyer from being present. For instance, they do not allow the suspect to call his lawyer, or they say they have called a duty solicitor but he has not answered the call, or they suggest that it would be better if the suspect did not contact his lawyer because this would be very expensive. Of course, if the suspect is very determined, he can have legal assistance. In theory, the lawyer plays an active role if he is present, but it may be that he is prevented from so doing by the police.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm................ (as our surfing acquaintance would say)
 
The locked door is evidence that Amanda or Raffaele locked the door?

Do you care to explain that?

Not when you take out one single element out of context and not when thisd has already been explained before.


It is not simply that the door was locked, but their behaviour, reactions and story regarding the door. It is also in within the context of other evidence at the cottage and the fact that the break-in was clearly staged. In other words, this requires a broad perspective, precisely the kind that you're adverse to.
 
I believe I'm right in saying that there is no right in Italy for people to have their legal counsel present during witness interviews. In this case, this would cover all of AK's/RS's interactions with the police up to around 6am on 6th November (although, in passing, I'd continue to argue that AK should have been read her rights by around 1am that night).

She was "read her rights" at 1:45am when the interview was concluded due to her implicating herself as an accomplice (who let Patrick in the cottage, who stood by in the kitchen while Meredith was being attacked?) to the murder.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom