Anti-English discrimination in Quebec

[D'rok]

Exactly my point. Why should Canada attempt to practice bilingualism when it is unacceptable in unilingual French Quebec? Bill 101 has been deemed unconstitutional in 1988(Ford v. Quebec (Attorney General) 1988 2 S.C.R. 712). Why should the Quebec French elitists(the politicians, not the regular citizens) get any respect when they refuse to give any?

As people keep pointing out to you, unilingual English is the norm in the ROC.You live in the the part of Canada that practices bilingualism. Francophones outside of Quebec should be so lucky as you are as an anglo in Quebec. Get over yourself.

And neither the Charter of Rights and Freedoms nor any jurisprudence from the Supreme Court gives you any freestanding right to have Quebec society confrom to your desire to do/have/get everything in English. Your rights are not being violated, they are being protected.

 

[D'rok]

Heard about this rather many years ago - that's why I have enjoyed both coasts of Canada but have no interest in the french quarter. Have no problem with French being the language there - people should be free to do silly stuff. But having no signs in English (per conditions when I was first informed of the situation) seemed buttholy to me - and nothing requires my going there so I don't.

Thanks for popping by. I'm sure the whole world will speak merkin soon enough. Then you can go everywhere without being inconvenienced by other cultures.

 

[D'rok]

Quebec is a beautiful and awesome place. It would be a huge tragedy if it became homogenized into the rest of English North America.

I'm almost at a loss for words how someone can complain that English is in danger anywhere on the northern part of this continent. That is just beyond absurd. Nothing that any Quebec government does to protect the French language will have any effect on the basic reality that English is totally dominant. Can Pauline Marois get Hollywood to film Iron Man in French? Maybe those nasty separatists will just stop all non-French cultural imports at the border, eh? Probably gonna build a French firewall on the Quebec internet too.

What a joke.

 

[blobru]

These laws are there to protect french so that french in Quebec does not have the same fate it had in Louisiana. Demographics clearly indicate that it is french that is loosing ground not english.

I agree that the purpose of the discriminatory french laws is to protect the usage of the French language in Quebec. I also agree that its quite likely that French could disappear (or its usage severely curtailed) without them.

However, the big question that needs to be asked is:

So what?

Sociologists point out that having a different language helps preserve the culture of that linguistic group, especially where the group is a minority. The loss of language and culture go hand in hand, until finally the minority group is culturally assimilated.

I think the argument makes sense. In the case of Quebec, the French language gives local art and media an obvious advantage with consumers over flashier, more expensive English-language imports, especially American, which would tend to dominate the marketplace otherwise. So preserving French in Quebec is crucial to preserving Quebec culture, to keeping an autonomous cultural narrative alive and dynamic.

Note English Canada aims to do the same thing with Canadian Content laws for public media. Though it's sometimes messy to implement and nowhere near as effective as speaking a different language, it's the same idea: another way to ensure that the smaller culture isn't swallowed up by its better-funded, flashier neighbour's; a way of protecting our ability to tell our own stories in our own way, the very same goal Quebec has, only via a different means, protecting its language.

So even though, unfortunately, it's usually framed as a divisive issue, as French vs English, it can also easily be seen as part of our common heritage, another strategy in our common struggle to preserve our heritage, keep Canadian cultures distinctive, to ensure that simple demographics won't warp, swamp or silence our less numerous, more murmurous, and always complex voice, eh? (n'est-ce pas?)

A language is not a living thing. A language disappearing is not like a person dying. If a person decides that, for whatever reason they prefer using language A over language B, they should have that right, and if everyone stops using language B the world will go on and nobody will be any worse off for it.

Language usage evolves. Syntax and vocabularies change, languages merge and diverge. It should not be the role of the government to tell us "you cannot have certain freedoms because we want to protect something which doesn't really matter".

Not sure if the above rationale had any impact; maybe you'd heard it before. I think language, especially where it's inseparable from culture and identity as in the case of Quebec, does matter, really quite a lot.

 

[D'rok]

Sociologists point out that having a different language helps preserve the culture of that linguistic group, especially where the group is a minority. The loss of language and culture go hand in hand, until finally the minority group is culturally assimilated.

I think the argument makes sense. In the case of Quebec, the French language gives local art and media an obvious advantage with consumers over flashier, more expensive English-language imports, especially American, which would tend to dominate the marketplace otherwise. So preserving French in Quebec is crucial to preserving Quebec culture, to keeping an autonomous cultural narrative alive and dynamic.

Note English Canada aims to do the same thing with Canadian Content laws for public media. Though it's sometimes messy to implement and nowhere near as effective as speaking a different language, it's the same idea: another way to ensure that the smaller culture isn't swallowed up by its better-funded, flashier neighbour's; a way of protecting our ability to tell our own stories in our own way, the very same goal Quebec has, only via a different means, protecting its language.

So even though, unfortunately, it's usually framed as a divisive issue, as French vs English, it can also easily be seen as part of our common heritage, another strategy in our common struggle to preserve our heritage, keep Canadian cultures distinctive, to ensure that simple demographics won't warp, swamp or silence our less numerous, more murmurous, and always complex voice, eh? (n'est-ce pas?)



Not sure if the above rationale had any impact; maybe you'd heard it before. I think language, especially where it's inseparable from culture and identity as in the case of Quebec, does matter, really quite a lot.

 

[Tailgater]

Why do your parents live there?
Do they work?

 

[Pardalis]

On the other hand if you're unable to answer it, it suggests that you may not have a reasonable answer.

Another one who can't understand.

Language is part of your identity, it's your culture. It's part of the way you think and feel. You're in the majority, so you have forgotten or have taken it for granted and are unable to see how it's a part of yourself.

What if the majority in Canada started to speak German and you had to forget about English and speak German for the rest of your life? No more music in English, no more books, movies, no more poetry, it's German from now on.

Would you say "so what"?

 

[Segnosaur]

I agree that the purpose of the discriminatory french laws is to protect the usage of the French language in Quebec. I also agree that its quite likely that French could disappear (or its usage severely curtailed) without them.

However, the big question that needs to be asked is:

So what?

Sociologists point out that having a different language helps preserve the culture of that linguistic group, especially where the group is a minority. The loss of language and culture go hand in hand, until finally the minority group is culturally assimilated.

Hey, I agree that language is an important part of cultural identity and preserving a language helps preserve a culture. But you're still left with the question:

So what?

A culture isn't "living" either. Cultures change, some merge with others, others disappear.

Yes, it is a good idea to preserve elements of culture for historical purposes. But I feel that its wrong to trample on people's rights in order to preserve a culture.

...it can also easily be seen as part of our common heritage, another strategy in our common struggle to preserve our heritage, keep Canadian cultures distinctive, to ensure that simple demographics won't warp, swamp or silence our less numerous, more murmurous, and always complex voice, eh? (n'est-ce pas?)

Just wondering... is human society really better off being fractured into hundreds if not thousands of cultures? Yeah, its nice to be "unique", but its also nice to converse with other people in the world, to understand their point of view without language or culture barriers getting in the way.

 

[Pardalis]

So what?

A culture isn't "living" either. Cultures change, some merge with others, others disappear.

You don't value your own culture? You don't want it to continue? You don't want your kids to live in it and make it thrive?

It's easy being in the majority isn't it? You don't have to think about preserving your own culture, it's just there, you don't have anything to do about it. Maybe you're being complacent about it, and have taken it for granted. Or maybe English culture has become so stagnant that it's not worth preserving.

Either way, you just don't get it.

 

[Segnosaur]

Another one who can't understand.

Actually, we understand... we just don't think its worth trampling on people's freedoms in order to implement your "language/cultural uniqueness".

Language is part of your identity, it's your culture. It's part of the way you think and feel. You're in the majority, so you have forgotten or have taken it for granted and are unable to see how it's a part of yourself.

By all means, keep speaking french. Drink your Labatts 50. Eat your poutine. Cheer for the Canadiens. You certainly have the right to do so.

But your desire to keep doing these things should not trump the right of Anglophone quebecers to use English as they see fit.

What if the majority in Canada started to speak German and you had to forget about English and speak German for the rest of your life? No more music in English, no more books, movies, no more poetry, it's German from now on.

Would you say "so what"?

Yes, I would.

Heck, 2 thousand years ago the English language didn't exist. Yet prior to the creation of the English language (and 'English culture' as a whole) you still had books, poetry, music. And I suspect most people were fairly happy/content with that situation.

If more people in Canada decided to start speaking German (maybe because they thought the beer was better...) the culture would change, but it was going to change anyways. Music would still be performed (it would sound different, but it would still exist), and books and poetry would still be written.

 

[Segnosaur]

You don't value your own culture?

I value the enjoyment that I get from elements of culture.... But if "anglo-english" culture never existed, I'd still get enjoyment out of whatever replaced it.

You don't want it to continue?

Irrelevant. My culture won't continue. At least not in the form that I know now. No culture exists unchanged forever. They will eventually change, merge with other cultures, or die out. Its been happening since we first came out of the trees.

Either way, you just don't get it.

Once again, I "get it"... I just don't think its worth trampling on people's freedoms to protect a language/culture that has nothing to do with preserving life, and doesn't really improve the overall quality of life.

 

[Pardalis]

Actually, we understand... we just don't think its worth trampling on people's freedoms in order to implement your "language/cultural uniqueness".

It's a way to fight our disappearance, and it worked so far. I'm not saying it's just, but it worked.

English will be alright. Have no fear.

By all means, keep speaking french. Drink your Labatts 50. Eat your poutine. Cheer for the Canadiens. You certainly have the right to do so.

Stereotypes, is that all you know about Québec culture?

Or is it culture in general you dislike? You don't seem to care about Québec's culture or even your own.

But your desire to keep doing these things should not trump the right of Anglophone quebecers to use English as they see fit.

So what?

You said yourself one should adapt with the times. Why don't anglophones adapt to Québec? By your own standards, if culture and language are not that important, then the anglophones shouldn't mind, right?

Yes, I would.

I don't believe you.

You would actually take up German and forget about English? No more Gordon Lightfoot, no more Leonard Cohen?

Heck, 2 thousand years ago the English language didn't exist.

Yes, but of course we're not taking about thousands of years. I'm talking about you and your lifespan, your brothers and sisters lifespans, and your kids' future.

It looks like you're trying to diminish the importance of people's cultures and identities by making too broad strokes.

You think Native cultures shouldn't fight to preserve their way of life? Would you actually say to a Mohawk "So what"?

 

[Pardalis]

Irrelevant.

Yes I know. you're one of the few lucky ones who don't care about cultural identity and belonging.

You're lucky.

You must have a very dry library of books and movies.

 

[D'rok]

The rights of English speakers are not being trampled on in Quebec. To assert that they are is to debase the term "right" into a catch-all for childish entitlement.

 

[Canadian712]

As people keep pointing out to you, unilingual English is the norm in the ROC.You live in the the part of Canada that practices bilingualism. Francophones outside of Quebec should be so lucky as you are as an anglo in Quebec. Get over yourself.

Quebec is unilingually French and English was banned as an official language back in 1974. How is banning another language "practicing bilingualism"?.

And neither the Charter of Rights and Freedoms nor any jurisprudence from the Supreme Court gives you any freestanding right to have Quebec society confrom to your desire to do/have/get everything in English. Your rights are not being violated, they are being protected.

But it does give me the right to have them in both languages. It's a mere constitutional right.

 

[Canadian712]

The rights of English speakers are not being trampled on in Quebec. To assert that they are is to debase the term "right" into a catch-all for childish entitlement.

-English was banned as an official language in 1974
-Anglos cannot buy a business and post it in their native language
-Businesses have received fines, or even shut down, for having business signs in Englis
-For years, the Quebec government has tried to strangle the English language education, and enrollment continues to fall by about 500 students a year
-Anglo population in Quebec has been dropping steadily for the past 40 years

-Most Quebec politicians are known racists

Need i go on?

 

[D'rok]

Quebec is unilingually French and English was banned as an official language back in 1974. How is banning another language "practicing bilingualism"?.

Have you traveled to any other Canadian cities? Seriously? Don't even try to tell me that Montreal isn't a bilingual city. Or are you confused on what the word "practicing" means?

But it does give me the right to have them in both languages. It's a mere constitutional right.

No. You are flat out wrong. You have a constitutional right to interact with the federal government (i.e., to receive services and to communicate) in either French or English, and to receive minority language education in your province. You do not have a constitutional right to anglicize Quebec civil society. That means that a store displaying a sign with French predominant over English, or with no English at all, is in no way a violation of your rights.

 

[D'rok]

-Most Quebec politicians are known racists

On to ignore you go. Your ignorance is merely a mask for hatred and bigotry.

Need i go on?

Nope. You've dug the hole quite deep enough already.

 

[Segnosaur]

Actually, we understand... we just don't think its worth trampling on people's freedoms in order to implement your "language/cultural uniqueness".

It's a way to fight our disappearance, and it worked so far.

Your "disappearance"? Were there roving gangs of pro-English death squads exterminating all french speakers?

Last time I checked, a person's survival wasn't tied to the language they spoke.

English will be alright. Have no fear.

I never claimed that English would be threatened with extinction, either in Quebec or North america as a whole. But its an issue of personal freedom. I should have the right to do business in whatever language I choose, and I should have the right to educate my kids in whatever language I choose, without the government telling me "no" just because a group of people doesn't understand that the culture they are attached to will be changing anyways.

By all means, keep speaking french. Drink your Labatts 50. Eat your poutine. Cheer for the Canadiens. You certainly have the right to do so.
Stereotypes, is that all you know about Québec culture?

I know a lot about Quebec culture. I chose those rather obvious stereotypes because they'd be things that most people would identify (rightly or wrongly) as being "Quebec-oriented".

Or is it culture in general you dislike? You don't seem to care about Québec's culture or even your own.

I care about what brings me enjoyment, and what enhances humanity. Having a group of people subverting individual freedoms in order to protect a culture does nothing to enhance humanity.

But your desire to keep doing these things should not trump the right of Anglophone quebecers to use English as they see fit.

So what?

You said yourself one should adapt with the times. Why don't anglophones adapt to Québec? By your own standards, if culture and language are not that important, then the anglophones shouldn't mind, right?

A change in language usage/culture should be directed by individual preferences, not by government decree.

If an Quebec anglophone decides to switch to French because he runs a business and can serve customers better, or because he can communicate with the community better, then by all means do so. If, for whatever reason he decides to stick to English (maybe he is infatuated with British royalty or something) that should be his right.

You would actually take up German and forget about English? No more Gordon Lightfoot, no more Leonard Cohen?

Umm... isn't that stereotyping?

If, for some reason most performers decided to switch to french, they have that right. And if I decided that music was important, then I'd have to switch along with them.

Heck, 2 thousand years ago the English language didn't exist.

Yes, but of course we're not taking about thousands of years. I'm talking about you and your lifespan, your brothers and sisters lifespans, and your kids' future.

Well, in the space of 1 or 2 lifespans (in around a century) we've seen:
- The rise of new technologies geared towards entertainment (video games/movies) often with their own terminology
- Changes in basic society moors
- New government social programs
- The rise of new music styles (rock and roll, etc.)
Someone transported from the early 1900s would have trouble recognizing much of the culture of today.

You think Native cultures shouldn't fight to preserve their way of life? Would you actually say to a Mohawk "So what"?

Actually, I think Natives should act to preserve their way of life (or at least elements of their history/culture.) I'd hope at the very least we'd have historians document everything they could. But that doesn't mean we should have the government force him to maintain his culture, if he should decide that he'd rather adopt English or French cultural elements.

Yes I know. you're one of the few lucky ones who don't care about cultural identity and belonging.

Actually, its more that I actually care about personal freedoms.

You must have a very dry library of books and movies.

Actually, I've got a rather extensive collection of movies... nearing 400 at this point. Granted a lot of them are American-style blockbusters, but I also make it a point to purchase Canadian movies. Also have a lot of Canadian CDs in my music collection.

And guess what? I have those Canadian movies/CDs because they bring me enjoyment, not because the government has stepped in and said "You must have X number of Canadian movies in your collection in order to protect Canadian culture".

 

[Pardalis]

-English was banned as an official language in 1974

No it's not. Making French the official language doesn't mean that English is "banned" as a language.

Anglophones have their rights assured, they can have service in any of the two languages if they wish, anywhere.

Stop spreading lies.

Le statut de l'anglais est reconnu dans toutes les provinces, même au Québec où cette langue jouit d'un statut au Parlement, dans les tribunaux, les écoles, certaines municipalités, etc.

http://www.salic-slmc.ca/showpage.a..._off/contexte_jur&language=fr&updatemenu=true

You see the official language on other provinces? Where is French? Do you see me complain?

What part of "bilinguisme reconnu" don't you understand?

-Anglos cannot buy a business and post it in their native language

You keep repeating that, and it keeps being patently ridiculous.

Anglophones own many companies in Québec. I'm starting to doubt that you live here.

-Businesses have received fines, or even shut down, for having business signs in Englis

The law is that they post their signs in both languages.

English is fine if French is present.

-For years, the Quebec government has tried to strangle the English language education, and enrollment continues to fall by about 500 students a year

Not strangle. We only want the immigrant population to choose French over english, for our own survival.

-Anglo population in Quebec has been dropping steadily for the past 40 years

But not in Montréal

-Most Quebec politicians are known racists

And you are an idiot.