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Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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LondonJohn said:
Well that is an interesting statement to make.
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It's bit harsh... but if the list of 44 errors that he made is anywhere near correct then I would have to agree with Fulcanelli is right.

So, who of the Amanda supporters here is going to try and prune that list?
 
Amazer said:
It's bit harsh... but if the list of 44 errors that he made is anywhere near correct then I would have to agree with Fulcanelli is right.

So, who of the Amanda supporters here is going to try and prune that list?
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Just as a point of clarification: one doesn't have to be an "Amanda supporter" to believe that certain errors may have been made in the gathering, interpretation and presentation of evidence. Indeed, one doesn't even have to be of the belief that AK didn't commit this crime in order to consider that her criminal conviction might be unsafe. Just thought I'd make that clear (particularly in case I'm clumsily lumped into the "Amanda supporter" group).
 
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Is there any word from Amanda contradicting how her English was translated into Italian? Does she record anywhere in her diary that the translation from English to Italian is faulty in her testimony or her writings? Has she posted any corrections of her 'sayings', by reclarifying the English/Italian translation? I am assuming she has copies of all the court transcripts and the judges reports
 
Fine said:
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Bruce,

Let's be more precise. In the radio interview (KIRO FM, Seattle) conducted by Frank Shiers on Thursday evening, May 20, Steve Moore---your "expert" crime analyst--- described the FINAL phase of the attack on Meredith in these words:

Rudy "stabbed twice and then slashed her throat." (elapsed time of audiotape=14:10. A LINK to the audio tape on injusticeinperugia.org)

Is this your understanding, too, of how Meredith was killed?

(EDIT: I hope not.)

///
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Please explain where you believe Steve Moore got it wrong.
 
Amazer said:
It's bit harsh... but if the list of 44 errors that he made is anywhere near correct then I would have to agree with Fulcanelli is right.

So, who of the Amanda supporters here is going to try and prune that list?
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I scored the list against the information I have. It includes some valid points. The main error that Steve made was in overstating the evidence against Guede, citing blood and bodily fluids when in fact none were found. But the 44-point list contains a number of factual errors. For example, the TMB test on the knife blade definitively ruled out the presence of blood. Also, no blood was found in Sollecito's apartment, other than luminol reactions which were not confirmed to be blood, so the statement "blood was found at Raffaele's, but none of it could be ascertained as Meredith's, which does not rule it out as being hers" does not accurately describe the findings.

A number of items involve terminology, like whether Meredith's throat was slashed. Steve has no reason to mislead the public about such matters.

The key point is that Steve watched the video and examined the crime scene photos and concluded that this was a sexual homicide committed by a lone intruder who acted on impulse.
 
43degreesNorth said:
Is there any word from Amanda contradicting how her English was translated into Italian? Does she record anywhere in her diary that the translation from English to Italian is faulty in her testimony or her writings? Has she posted any corrections of her 'sayings', by reclarifying the English/Italian translation? I am assuming she has copies of all the court transcripts and the judges reports
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I guess no one knows for sure then? It seems to me she has settled into prison routine somewhat. Not that I would know how it feels, but correct me if anyone here innocent and find themselves thrown in prison for 26 years wouldn't be either screaming everyday " let me out of here' or go on hunger strike or call their lawyers in for debriefing daily, or do an Italian law degree in my spare time or study DNA evidence. She appears to be doing none of the above. Those of you who have already researched the innocent in prison, what have you discovered of their 'inside' behaviour if I might ask (to slightly move away from you all acting like big girls blouses! a new phrase to me that I discovered from UK friends)
 
stilicho said:
halides1 said:
He accused two other men, along with himself, of the rape and murder of a young woman. His confession, based on a dream, did not make sense. One of the other two men, Karl Fontenot, confessed in less than two hours. The twp claimed that a third man, Odell Titsworth, was the ringleader. The third man (it was later discovered) had a painful broken arm in a cast and could not have carried the body of the victim, for example. The third man did not know the two who confessed. See also "The Dreams of Ada."
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All we can find on the case is this:

http://www.billpetersondistrictattorney.com/

You're using information gleaned from a novelist rather than from contemporary or even truthful accounts of the case. Not that this surprises us. It was better when you simply posted links to irrelevant cases.
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He really hasn't stopped.

By rather unsettling coincidence Grisham's The Innocent Man is one of the books I'm currently reading.

In the case of Tommy Ward, as Grisham takes pains to stress, the police not only did not pursue inconsistencies in his confession, but, when confronted with irrefutable evidence by others, chose to ignore the problem, and actively participated in the repression of such evidence during the course of the trial.

To apply the analogy to the Knox case the Italian authorities would have had to reject the testimony of Patrick's alibi for the night of the murder, willfully concealed its existence and convicted him instead.

Quite the opposite, it serves as yet another rather stunning example that U.S. cops and courts may not have the great intrinsic superiority that we seem to hear so much about compared to Italian ones.

It's exactly the same sort of rhetorical non sequitur he's been using with his worn out DNA lab anecdotes. Complete with strategic omissions.
 
43degreesNorth said:
I guess no one knows for sure then? It seems to me she has settled into prison routine somewhat. Not that I would know how it feels, but correct me if anyone here innocent and find themselves thrown in prison for 26 years wouldn't be either screaming everyday " let me out of here' or go on hunger strike or call their lawyers in for debriefing daily, or do an Italian law degree in my spare time or study DNA evidence. She appears to be doing none of the above. Those of you who have already researched the innocent in prison, what have you discovered of their 'inside' behaviour if I might ask (to slightly move away from you all acting like big girls blouses! a new phrase to me that I discovered from UK friends)
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My sources tell me she isn't angry or vindictive by nature, and she has faith that this will get fixed in the end, so she is making the best of a bad situation.
 
Charlie Wilkes said:
My sources tell me she isn't angry or vindictive by nature, and she has faith that this will get fixed in the end, so she is making the best of a bad situation.
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Sorry, I am not talking about being 'vindictive'. Seems to me this is more resignation and willingness to accept she is guilty by the courts decision?
 
quadraginta said:
Quite the opposite, it serves as yet another rather stunning example that U.S. cops and courts may not have the great intrinsic superiority that we seem to hear so much about compared to Italian ones.
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Indeed, it is one of many examples. I can give you some that are even more stunning. Everything I know about wrongful prosecution I learned from cases right here in the U.S. of A.

I would suggest The Dreams of Ada as a companion piece to An Innocent Man. And I would suggest Victims of Justice Revisited as the indispensable book on this subject.

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Charlie Wilkes said:
I scored the list against the information I have. It includes some valid points. The main error that Steve made was in overstating the evidence against Guede, citing blood and bodily fluids when in fact none were found. But the 44-point list contains a number of factual errors. For example, the TMB test on the knife blade definitively ruled out the presence of blood. Also, no blood was found in Sollecito's apartment, other than luminol reactions which were not confirmed to be blood, so the statement "blood was found at Raffaele's, but none of it could be ascertained as Meredith's, which does not rule it out as being hers" does not accurately describe the findings.
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So we're down to 41 errors.

A number of items involve terminology, like whether Meredith's throat was slashed. Steve has no reason to mislead the public about such matters.
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I'd say that there's a rather large difference between a stabbing wound and a slashing wound. I would expect an expert to know the difference. So I'm keeping this one in the error corner. We're still at 41 errors.

The key point is that Steve watched the video and examined the crime scene photos and concluded that this was a sexual homicide committed by a lone intruder who acted on impulse.
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How am I to trust the conclusions of a man who makes 41 mistakes in a single, relatively short interview? A few mistakes would have been acceptable, even for an expert. He is human after all. But 41 errors tells me that he's perhaps not the expert he projects himself to be.
 
43degreesNorth said:
I guess no one knows for sure then? It seems to me she has settled into prison routine somewhat. Not that I would know how it feels, but correct me if anyone here innocent and find themselves thrown in prison for 26 years wouldn't be either screaming everyday " let me out of here' or go on hunger strike or call their lawyers in for debriefing daily, or do an Italian law degree in my spare time or study DNA evidence. She appears to be doing none of the above. Those of you who have already researched the innocent in prison, what have you discovered of their 'inside' behaviour if I might ask (to slightly move away from you all acting like big girls blouses! a new phrase to me that I discovered from UK friends)
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I don't know whether there's a corpus of evidence on how wrongly-convicted people behave while in prison, before their conviction is overturned. But what you wrote DID remind me of a certain miscarriage case in the UK - that of the so-called "Bridgewater Four", who were wrongly convicted in 1979 of murdering a newspaper deliver boy called Carl Bridgewater after what the prosecution originally claimed was an interrupted burglary of a remote farmhouse (the four were known and previously-convicted burglars). Of the four, one (who was 51 at the time of conviction) died in prison before exoneration. Of the other three, two (who were aged 25 and 45 at conviction) engaged in no form of protest whatsoever during their 18-year incarceration. But the last man (aged just 17 at conviction) repeatedly staged rooftop protests and hunger strikes during his first five years in prison.

Obviously, this is one case in isolation. But if it can tell us anything, it's that people react in different ways while in prison to what they perceive as wrongful conviction/imprisonment. I therefore think that on this basis (admittedly of low statistical validity), it's difficult to argue that AK should be shouting from the rooftops if she indeed had been wrongly convicted.

PS At the risk of provoking howling protest of going off-topic on another flight of pedantry......... the phrase "big girl's blouse" is actually used in the UK idiom to describe unmanly/effete/cowardly behaviour. For example: "You ran screaming at the sight of a spider in the bath??!! You big girl's blouse!"
 
a question

Amazer said:
So we're down to 41 errors.


I'd say that there's a rather large difference between a stabbing wound and a slashing wound. I would expect an expert to know the difference. So I'm keeping this one in the error corner. We're still at 41 errors.
.
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Do you accept the validity of the other 41 points?
 
Charlie Wilkes said:
She will never accept that she is guilty because she's not.
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On what basis? What she has told you? What her mother has told you? Or on the evidence alone as you read it ignoring the expert scientists and testimony and court judgment? have you read the full motivation report? I am asking, because I haven't as of yet.
 
halides1 said:
Do you accept the validity of the other 41 points?
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If I had the time I would actually have researched it myself in more detail. But unfortunately work won't allow me that luxury at the moment. I'm fast approaching a deadline and still have plenty to do. For the moment though I do accept the validity of those other 41 points, with the condition that if you make a reasonable case to drop an error, i will strike that error of the list.
 
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