Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[stilicho]

RoseMontague,

What I know is that police sometimes make a stream of suggestions to a person's confession to make it fit the facts. This happened to one of the West Memphis 3, and it happened to Tommy Ward (see Chapter 5 in "The Innocent Man," by John Grisham). Tommy Ward's false confession was not recorded by the police.

halides1

Did Tommy accuse his boss of murdering his roommate?

 

[stilicho]

Yes, exactly, In comparing the two systems we are often comparing apples and oranges...in doing so we use terms we are familiar with (and already have fixed ideas of their roles, rights and powers)...'judge'...'jury'...'suspect'...'witness'...'prosecutor'...etc. These are terms that we have all grown up understanding. Using them helps us familiarise, but doing so also completely confuses matters. It's a double edged sword. The lines in roles and meanings cross in completely different places...because while the systems have many similarities they are at the same time completely alien.

I remember when I was younger, I watched some French film late at night. It was regarding a murder and all the way through the film it was being investigated by a 'magistrate'...police were involved in a minor sense, but the suited magistrate was playing the role that in our culture, would be played by a senior detective...like a chief inspector. I found it hard to get my head around...he's a judge, they sit in court, they don't investigate crimes...I put it down to 'foreign oddness' and just went with it. This case has taught me about the civil law system so in retrospect, I now understand it, but at the time it was very confusing.

And it's not only in differing legal systems today. There have been historically distinct and possibly confusing legal and administrative functions--sheriff, bailiff, provost, seneschal, magister, mayor, chamberlain, etc--that have changed over time among the same cultures.

Sometimes these things seem "wrong" to us because we don't have their perspective. I see that all the time in this case. Amanda probably got more benefits from the "quirks" of the Italian system than she would have in the USA. How much of her accusation would have been declared inadmissible in the USA? I think they would have let her talk freely far into the morning and been able to use all of it.

 

[HumanityBlues]

I don't put any stock in it. You asked a question and I replied to it.

What do you think the chances are that Johnson and Hampikian will be called as expert witnesses on appeal? Halkides? They present themselves as experts. Are they just poor experts? They have to be better than Tagliabracci--or is that the best they have?

Based on my research I would say that Johnson is an incredibly sought after expert by Federal Prosecutors in the United States, but that probably doesn't interest you. That googling y'all do is good enough I'm sure.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

Steve's opinion has been duly weighed and found to be irrelevant.

Someone must have forgotten to tell him there were trials and verdicts already. His opinion wasn't important then and it isn't important now.

Who was it that decided that Steve's opinion was irrelevant? You? PMF?

Yes, we all know that the trials have already occurred and rulings have been made.

What is your point?

Did someone forget to tell you that there are two appeals?

 

[RWVBWL]

Steve's opinion has been duly weighed and found to be irrelevant.

Someone must have forgotten to tell him there were trials and verdicts already. His opinion wasn't important then and it isn't important now.

Hi Stilicho,
I'd be willing to bet that Mr. Moore's opinion has a lot more past work experience behind it than does yours, mine, or just about any of the other "regular" posters here, even if he might be incorrect on a few things that you and the PMF gang pointed out today...
Mr. Moore's creditentials speak for themselves, and his opinion carries a lot more weight than mine does, and I bet yours too. But correct me if I am wrong, for who knows, maybe you too are a retired lifelong detective of another country's national investigation bureau. Regardless, he is human and also can make mistakes. As can any other investigator.

Speaking of mistakes,
do you think the investigators in this case that we discuss did a great job? Do you think that any mistakes were made in the investigation? Did you see how they handled and collected the bra clasp? Would you want your child to have evidence against them collected and handled like that? Honestly?

In my opinion, which matters little, there were many mistakes made in this murder case. And personally, I like the fact that someone of Mr. Moore's experience is trying to help, without payment, shed light on what might have actually happened that night of the murder of Miss Kercher.
RWVBWL

Ps-Opps, don't forget Stilicho,
that even though there were "trials and verdicts already", there are appeals trials coming up...

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Dream On

Did Tommy accuse his boss of murdering his roommate?

He accused two other men, along with himself, of the rape and murder of a young woman. His confession, based on a dream, did not make sense. One of the other two men, Karl Fontenot, confessed in less than two hours. The twp claimed that a third man, Odell Titsworth, was the ringleader. The third man (it was later discovered) had a painful broken arm in a cast and could not have carried the body of the victim, for example. The third man did not know the two who confessed. See also "The Dreams of Ada."

 

[act1roson]

Steve's opinion has been duly weighed and found to be irrelevant."

I am new. I need to barge in to get warmed up, so pardon me.

I'd like to start fresh. I've reviewed lots of past posts, but not all of them.

I don't understand the current topic of the Steve Moore interview. I'm confused how Moore's opinion was "duly weighed and found to be irrelevant." Can anyone explain that to me in a nutshell with specifics, so I don't spend an hour reviewing other sites? What's the consensus?

The PMF site had a list of items debunked by other sites. But I'm torn, in particular, by the evidence of Guede in the murder room. Since his trial was secret (that is what I was led to believe) how do we know what evidence was presented there?

 

[RWVBWL]

Steve's opinion has been duly weighed and found to be irrelevant."

I am new. I need to barge in to get warmed up, so pardon me.

I'd like to start fresh. I've reviewed lots of past posts, but not all of them.

I don't understand the current topic of the Steve Moore interview. I'm confused how Moore's opinion was "duly weighed and found to be irrelevant." Can anyone explain that to me in a nutshell with specifics, so I don't spend an hour reviewing other sites? What's the consensus?

The PMF site had a list of items debunked by other sites. But I'm torn, in particular, by the evidence of Guede in the murder room. Since his trial was secret (that is what I was led to believe) how do we know what evidence was presented there?

Greetings act1roson, and welcome to JREF!
The debates and arguments get fast and furious in here. There's over 13 thousand posts on this particular murder! So I would suggest reading, alot! I do too, but rarely post. There are some spirited debates here, today being one of them. If we had boxing gloves, I bet Fulcanelli and Bruce Fisher would have went "toe to toe" for at least 3 rounds earlier!

More good info is available in Frank Sfarzo's Perugia Shock. Frank is a local who went to most of the trials and knows his stuff. I check it first. I found it especially interesting to read from the beginning, for Frank seemed to feel Amanda Knox and "daddy's boy" Raffaele Sollecito were guilty in the early part, but then changed his mind. An interesting read...
Bruce Fisher's Injustice in Perugia website is highly recomended, it's an easy read and full of information. Injustice in Perugia is helping lead the charge to change the public's perception of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.
On the other side, the True Justice for Meredith Kercher site is a pleasure to browse too, it gives me an opposing view that is pretty well done.
The gang at Perugia Murder File come here often and post, and the arguments and debates ensue. I check in there to read sometimes, but the site is dark and sometimes hard to follow.

Read up, you have A LOT of hours to catch up and then join us in debate, often!
If you do not know your stuff, you'll be "kindly corrected" though...
RWVBWL

 

[christianahannah]

Greetings act1roson, and welcome to JREF!
The debates and arguments get fast and furious in here. There's over 13 thousand posts on this particular murder! So I would suggest reading, alot! I do too, but rarely post. There are some spirited debates here, today being one of them. If we had boxing gloves, I bet Fulcanelli and Bruce Fisher would have went "toe to toe" for at least 3 rounds earlier!

More good info is available in Frank Sfarzo's Perugia Shock. Frank is a local who went to most of the trials and knows his stuff. I check it first. I found it especially interesting to read from the beginning, for Frank seemed to feel Amanda Knox and "daddy's boy" Raffaele Sollecito were guilty in the early part, but then changed his mind. An interesting read...
Bruce Fisher's Injustice in Perugia website is highly recomended, it's an easy read and full of information. Injustice in Perugia is helping lead the charge to change the public's perception of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.
On the other side, the True Justice for Meredith Kercher site is a pleasure to browse too, it gives me an opposing view that is pretty well done.
The gang at Perugia Murder File come here often and post, and the arguments and debates ensue. I check in there to read sometimes, but the site is dark and sometimes hard to follow.

Read up, you have A LOT of hours to catch up and then join us in debate, often!
If you do not know your stuff, you'll be "kindly corrected" though...
RWVBWL

I have just recently started reading Frank Sfarzo's Perugia Shock in depth and have found it rather enlightening. He has a unique writing style, sometimes reports in English, sometimes Italian and includes much sarcasm in his early writings. There are news articles from the beginning of the case, documentation, photos and the early comments are informative.

View from Wilmington is a good site which leans towards science. There is back and forth discussion in the comments and the author is helpful with answering questions as are others who post there.

I'm not quite sure what happened during the last few pages, however, the forum isn't always so combative.

 

[RWVBWL]

I have just recently started reading Frank Sfarzo's Perugia Shock in depth and have found it rather enlightening. He has a unique writing style, sometimes reports in English, sometimes Italian and includes much sarcasm in his early writings. There are news articles from the beginning of the case, documentation, photos and the early comments are informative.

View from Wilmington is a good site which leans towards science. There is back and forth discussion in the comments and the author is helpful with answering questions as are others who post there.

I'm not quite sure what happened during the last few pages, however, the forum isn't always so combative.

Hi Christianahannah,
Thanks for the mentioning the View from Wilmington, I have seen it before, and now have it bookmarked.
RWVBWL

 

[HumanityBlues]

I have just recently started reading Frank Sfarzo's Perugia Shock in depth and have found it rather enlightening. He has a unique writing style, sometimes reports in English, sometimes Italian and includes much sarcasm in his early writings. There are news articles from the beginning of the case, documentation, photos and the early comments are informative.

View from Wilmington is a good site which leans towards science. There is back and forth discussion in the comments and the author is helpful with answering questions as are others who post there.

I'm not quite sure what happened during the last few pages, however, the forum isn't always so combative.

Guess what I just ordered online!!!!

 

[Bruce Fischer]

Guess what I just ordered online!!!!

Candace Dempsey's book!

 

[HumanityBlues]

No. It is an inside joke, but I ordered a luminol kit and luminol flashlight. Christiana made a hilarious comment on another forum about the logistics of ordering one, so I thought she would appreciate that (unless my loud mouth humor has turned her off now....).

 

[Bruce Fischer]

No. It is an inside joke, but I ordered a luminol kit and luminol flashlight. Christiana made a hilarious comment on another forum about the logistics of ordering one, so I thought she would appreciate that (unless my loud mouth humor has turned her off now....).

On View-from-wilmington?

I just wanted to plug Candace Dempsey's book! I get nothing for it of course. I think it is a great read for anyone that is truly interested in this case.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

I think Amazer gets that from your continued insistence that Rudy's criminal record will be released soon...and, yet, it hasn't been released.

With all the information that I have provided, you and amazer are hung up on Guede's past history of crime? That's it? Really?

I have no control over that information. It will eventually come to light.

You put yourself in a very tough spot having to defend Rudy. I am honestly not sure how anyone can defend that man.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

Amazer wrote: And you are right... i've only briefly visited those sites and then only with the purpose of seeing particular evidence that was posted. Much like I treat your site which I've mainly visited for the 'staged' break in pictures.[/QUOTE]

You should take some time and read through the site. The link below shows that Raffaele called the police before they arrived. This is very important. It refutes the entire claim that Amanda and Raffaele were caught off guard when the police arrived.


http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/garage.html

 

[BobTheDonkey]

With all the information that I have provided, you and amazer are hung up on Guede's past history of crime? That's it? Really?

I have no control over that information. It will eventually come to light.

You put yourself in a very tough spot having to defend Rudy. I am honestly not sure how anyone can defend that man.

No one here, and I mean NO ONE here, is defending Rudy. No one. I've had enough of that false accusation, Bruce.

You still cannot answer all the questions the evidence presents were we to accept Amanda and Raffaele had nothing to do with the murder. That's not opinion, that's fact.

What's the contamination route for Rudy's DNA onto the clasp?

What's the contamination route for Meredith's DNA onto the knife?

Could Amanda or Raffaele have thrown the rock through the window from outside after the murder?

Why is there a conspicuous lack of evidence of Guede's presence in Filomena's room?

Who closed/locked Meredith's door given that Guede's shoeprints show no pause, no motion to close the door. Rather straight out the front door?

Why is Guede's whole footprint on the bathmat when it's only his shoeprints that were left in the bedroom?


etc.

 

[Amazer]

With all the information that I have provided, you and amazer are hung up on Guede's past history of crime? That's it? Really?

No, that's just one of them. It does a fine job of showing where I think you are lacking.

I have no control over that information. It will eventually come to light.

I'm sure it will. But no matter how damning, I fail to see how this is suddenly going exonerate Amanda and Raffaele... but that could just be me.

You put yourself in a very tough spot having to defend Rudy. I am honestly not sure how anyone can defend that man.

Anybody here defending Rudy? Anyone?.... .... .... .... Nope, no one here defending Rudy.

You were saying something about being in a very tough spot? Care to try again?

 

[Matthew Best]

Guede is hoping to win his appeal. This case is so screwed up, he just might win it.

This would be his second appeal, yes? Any idea when it will take place? Once all his appeals are exhausted, would there then be any outstanding reason not to tell the truth? (One could say the same about Knox & Sollecito of course, but I presume since Guede had a fast-track trial, his appeals will be used up before theirs will).

 

[Mary_H]

I heard Hokey Cokey was David Marriott's secret nickname when he stalked the jungles during the Vietnam War, killing 200 Viet Cong troops with his bare hands. They say he killed like he was doing the "Hokey Cokey".

el buscador wrote: "He put his right hand in and shook it all about."

You guys are killing me!!!

I am surprised that no one in this discussion pointed out the excellent work of one Jeff Brechlin, who won The Washington Post Style Invitational contest, which asked readers to submit “instructions” for something (anything), written in the style of a famous person.

“The Hokey Pokey” as written by W. Shakespeare:

O proud left foot, that ventures quick within
Then soon upon a backward journey lithe.
Anon, once more the gesture, then begin:
Command sinistral pedestal to writhe.
Commence thou then the fervid Hokey-Poke,
A mad gyration, hips in wanton swirl.
To spin! A wilde release from Heaven’s yoke.
Blessed dervish! Surely canst go, girl.
The Hoke, the poke — banish now thy doubt;
Verily, I say, ’tis what it’s all about.


http://www.virushead.net/vhrandom/2006/11/05/hokey-pokey-shakespeare