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Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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Actually, one needn't even be looking for signs of pyscopathy, but simply latent (unexpressed) anger/rage, resentment, etc' etc'.

Which, from what I can gather, are singulary absent in both Knox and Sollicito.

I would like to see this confirmed by a qualified psych, and presented in court.


I would like to see this, too, Supernaut. Raffaele mentions in his diary talking to social workers and counselors in prison. I have a feeling that their reports would be positive, but that they are afraid to speak out against Mignini for fear of slander suits or worse.
 
I'm sorry, I don't understand. What conspiracy?

Anything outside the "official narrative" will be pounced on as a "conspiracy theory" by the many authoritarians here..

Such as;-

the suggestion that Guede was an informer that the police had been using in an ill-thought out strategy to deal with the spiralling drug problem in Perugia (which for a University town was particularly damaging), and that they left him on the streets despite obvious signs that he was becoming dangerous.

If so, the authorities themselves would be culpable in Meredith's murder, and there would be a powerful incentive to camouflage it by framing a couple of other kids.

The rather parochial authorities might have believed that stitching up a couple of students wouldn't attract too much attention.

Guede would thus still beleive he is in a position to, shall we say, bargain his way out of jail in a few years.
 
stilicho, just so you know, fine has it wrong. I don't know who fine is but if he actually saw the autopsy photos then he would know that one of the wounds was a slash.

______________________

Bruce,

Let's be more precise. In the radio interview (KIRO FM, Seattle) conducted by Frank Shiers on Thursday evening, May 20, Steve Moore---your "expert" crime analyst--- described the FINAL phase of the attack on Meredith in these words:

Rudy "stabbed twice and then slashed her throat." (elapsed time of audiotape=14:10. A LINK to the audio tape on injusticeinperugia.org)

Is this your understanding, too, of how Meredith was killed?

(EDIT: I hope not.)

///
 
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We're still waiting for you to explain how the Perugia police were supposed to know that Amanda lied ("unreliable" to quote you).

The police in Perugia can recognize whether or not someone is truthful. They know the difference between an Amanda Knox and a Mafioso. The question is not whether Amanda lied, but why the police chose to set her and Raffaele up, extract unreliable, manipulated recollections, and then use them to support their misguided arrest of Patrick Lumumba.

If you read Amanda's statement to the police, it is unmistakably apparent that it is written by someone who is highly doubtful about the information the police got out of her a few hours earlier. At this point, though, the police no longer cared. When Amanda went into the interrogation, she did not accuse Patrick; during the interrogation, she accused Patrick; after the interrogation, she withdrew her accusation of Patrick. The police chose one out of three, not two out of three, of Amanda's positions. It was not her, it was them.

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/TheInterrogation.html
 
Since you bring it up, what basis do you have to assert that compared to the U.S. "... the prosecution (the State, in effect) is completely unrestrained when it comes to "speculating" about (to reiterate) personality, character and motivation.", in Italy?

Since argument by anecdote has proven to be so popular with Knox partisans, I'm sure I could provide a wealth of examples of U.S. prosecutors who have suffered no serious legal impediment to their conjectures in court. I don't think we really need to go there, though. Do you?

In what way was Mignini 'restrained' in his "conjectures in court", not least his closing argument?

I can't think of anything more egregious he didn't say about Amanda Knox. Perhaps you can?

Are you seriously suggesting that a prosecutor would get away with anything like it in a UK or US court?
 
Anything outside the "official narrative" will be pounced on as a "conspiracy theory" by the many authoritarians here..

Such as;-

the suggestion that Guede was an informer that the police had been using in an ill-thought out strategy to deal with the spiralling drug problem in Perugia (which for a University town was particularly damaging), and that they left him on the streets despite obvious signs that he was becoming dangerous.

If so, the authorities themselves would be culpable in Meredith's murder, and there would be a powerful incentive to camouflage it by framing a couple of other kids.

The rather parochial authorities might have believed that stitching up a couple of students wouldn't attract too much attention.

Guede would thus still beleive he is in a position to, shall we say, bargain his way out of jail in a few years.

That's all very interesting, but not really what I was talking about. I simply meant that he hasn't told the whole truth yet, but perhaps the reason for that was that his appeals had not been exhausted. When they are, will he have any reason not to simply say what happened? If, as you say, he is hoping to "bargain his way out of jail in a few years" I am not sure how that would work, but I have seen it written here that he is expected to be released in five years anyway. Is there any basis to that?
 
Besides, if the police let a 20 year old girl manipulate them so easily, that doesn't say much about their law enforcement abilities, imo.

And with that, the crux of Patrick's arrest is revealed. The Italian police do not do what 20-year-old girls tell them to do. If Amanda had an iota of power in this mess, she would not currently be sitting in a jail cell; in fact, she never would have been arrested in the first place.

To break protocol and the law, and then blame a girl who needed an interpreter to communicate with you is the height of cowardice. Or, I should say, the depth.
 
The Hokey Cokey is also known as the Hokey Pokey, and according to wiki, the original tune was named Hokey Pokey after the ice cream.

Do you honestly not have anything better to do with your time than come up with the purest, most refined pedantry?
 
I've actually never heard of hokey cokey to be honest.

God almighty.

practically an entire page worth of "discussion" about fricking "hokey cokey/pokey"

HB, you're one the more readable posters here, but don't you actually want people to read the thread?
 
Do you honestly not have anything better to do with your time than come up with the purest, most refined pedantry?
Why, yes, yes I do. Thank you so much for caring.

I happen to think that correcting falsehoods, even irrelevant and unintentional ones, is important, though. Throughout this thread there have been many assertions made without evidence, on both sides. I don't always know when those assertions are wrong, sometimes I do (cf Dixan and your example).

Now if we could please, please stop bickering, and stop using this thread as a platform for criticism of other websites and the creators/moderators thereof, maybe we can avoid a flurry of yellow cards and the threat of moderated status.
 
He accused two other men, along with himself, of the rape and murder of a young woman. His confession, based on a dream, did not make sense. One of the other two men, Karl Fontenot, confessed in less than two hours. The twp claimed that a third man, Odell Titsworth, was the ringleader. The third man (it was later discovered) had a painful broken arm in a cast and could not have carried the body of the victim, for example. The third man did not know the two who confessed. See also "The Dreams of Ada."

All we can find on the case is this:

http://www.billpetersondistrictattorney.com/

You're using information gleaned from a novelist rather than from contemporary or even truthful accounts of the case. Not that this surprises us. It was better when you simply posted links to irrelevant cases.
 
I simply meant that he hasn't told the whole truth yet, but perhaps the reason for that was that his appeals had not been exhausted.

None of the three will tell the truth, MB. The die is cast. Each of them knows there is a possible sentence reduction without telling the truth and if they each continue to lie they will still have their support mechanisms intact when they leave prison.

If any of them tell the truth then they have to face the wrath of those who are vested in their innocence. They will remain liars until the days they die.
 
That's all very interesting, but not really what I was talking about. I simply meant that he hasn't told the whole truth yet, but perhaps the reason for that was that his appeals had not been exhausted. When they are, will he have any reason not to simply say what happened? If, as you say, he is hoping to "bargain his way out of jail in a few years" I am not sure how that would work, but I have seen it written here that he is expected to be released in five years anyway. Is there any basis to that?

I'm saying (in this utterly absurd scenario;)) that Guede would take certain others with him if he came clean, so these 'others' would have an incentive, to say the least, to exert whatever influence they can on Guede's behalf at his remaining appeal.
 
Show us the authorised documents where this happens. Does Charlie have those hidden somewhere? Did Amanda sign those too?


Same signed, authorized document I linked to before:
.....

"2. I also know that the fact that I can't fully recall the events that I claim took place at Raffaele's home during the time that Meredith was murdered is incriminating. And I stand by my statements that I made last night about events that could have taken place in my home with Patrik, but I want to make very clear that these events seem more unreal to me that what I said before, that I stayed at Raffaele's house.


"3. I'm very confused at this time. My head is full of contrasting ideas and I know I can be frustrating to work with for this reason. But I also want to tell the truth as best I can. Everything I have said in regards to my involvement in Meredith's death, even though it is contrasting, are the best truth that I have been able to think.

.....

"I'm trying, I really am, because I'm scared for myself. I know I didn't kill Meredith. That's all I know for sure. In these flashbacks that I'm having, I see Patrik as the murderer, but the way the truth feels in my mind, there is no way for me to have known because I don't remember FOR SURE if I was at my house that night. The questions that need answering, at least for how I'm thinking are:

.....

2. Why did I think of Patrik?

3. Is the evidence proving my pressance [sic] at the time and place of the crime reliable? If so, what does this say about my memory? Is it reliable?

4. Is there any other evidence condemning Patrik or any other person?

3. Who is the REAL murder [sic]? This is particularly important because I don't feel I can be used as condemning testimone [sic] in this instance."



Would you be okay with being arrested and imprisoned for murder on the basis of this witness's statement?
 
Anything outside the "official narrative" will be pounced on as a "conspiracy theory" by the many authoritarians here..

Such as;-

the suggestion that Guede was an informer that the police had been using in an ill-thought out strategy to deal with the spiralling drug problem in Perugia (which for a University town was particularly damaging), and that they left him on the streets despite obvious signs that he was becoming dangerous.

If so, the authorities themselves would be culpable in Meredith's murder, and there would be a powerful incentive to camouflage it by framing a couple of other kids.

The rather parochial authorities might have believed that stitching up a couple of students wouldn't attract too much attention.

Guede would thus still beleive he is in a position to, shall we say, bargain his way out of jail in a few years.

I agree entirely that this whole "police informant" issue could blow the whole case wide open. Now, of course this MIGHT just be passing into the realms of conspiracy theory - but on the other hand, as of right now there does appear to be at least a small grain of truth to it.

And if RG WAS an active police informer, then the argument that you've made flows very logically. Although I'd take slight issue with the part where you suggest that "stitching up a couple of students wouldn't attract too much attention". After all, one of these two students was a foreign national, so they'd have known that this would give the case an ongoing international dimension (the fact that another foreign student was the victim was sadly beyond dispute, thus ensuring some foreign interest, but minimising the chances of international criticism). And both AK and RS were from the educated middle classes, thus raising the spectre of ongoing protest and representation from their families, friends and/or support groups (in contrast, a degenerate drug dealer with perhaps no solid family unit, and probably with few articulate or reliable friends, would pose no such problems).

Instead, I'd suggest that,under your "police informant" scenario, the police/prosecutor would merely have had a powerful incentive to obfuscate and/or minimise RG's potential role. The fact that AK and RS also seemingly "offered themselves up on a platter" (as the police saw it) simply would have given the police the opportunity to focus attention on these two, as the lesser of two evils (note the specific idiomatic use of the word "evil" here).

In your scenario, I'd be pretty certain that - given a free choice - the police would have preferred to have collared one of the city's many drug dealers who were not also informants, whom they were gunning for in any case. However, once AK and RS placed themselves in the frame, and especially once forensic evidence started to turn up that could be consistent with AK/RS's involvement, this would clearly have been the police's best course to pursue - rather than continuing the search for a suitable drug-dealer suspect.

NOTE: this is ALL hypothetical, and based on the far-from-probable premise (as of right now) that RG was an active police informant at the time of the murder.
 
I forgot to add that if RG WAS a police informant, then this alone might well make him less inclined to "spill the beans" after all his appeals. Especially if was under the impression that his informant status would be helping him to get out of prison at the earliest available opportunity.
 
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