America: What's wrong with "socialism", anyway?

[Cleon]

Factory worker A makes 50 Thingamajigs in a week.
Factory worker B works harder and makes 300 Thingamajigs in a week.
Factory workers A and B make the same paycheck.
Factory worker B sees no benefit for working harder and drops production down to 50 Thingamajigs in a week, like worker A.
Entire production drops. Soon there are not enough products for the population. Society crumbles.

Here's the thing...Factory workers are paid by the hour. So what you're describing, where A and B make the same paycheck while making a different number of thingamajigs? That's the way things are now.

So...First, I think we can safely say that your conclusion has not come to pass, and is likely flawed.

Second, this is an indictment of socialism exactly how?

 

[SonOfLaertes]

I really really want to stop people saying this.

The USSR, particularly after the rise of Stalin, bears about as much resemblance to Socialism as the Democratic Republic of Congo does to Democracy.

In order to understand what socialism is, read socialist writings don't just say "Hur hur, USSR".


Oh, and what makes it even funnier is that a lot of people in Russia actually miss the USSR. They want it back.

Of course they want it back. They want it back because the average Russian fared better when their country was able to piggyback their prosperity on the backs of the satellite countries surrounding the Mother Country. Even the Eastern European countries which were techically not part of the "Union" were exploited for the benefit of Mother Russia.

Good times, if you were an ethnic Russian. Not so good for those who weren't, unless you were one of the few who the Russians used to help exploit the satellite "republic".

 

[Donal]

I know and you listed a series of events that didn't happen in Sweden which is also a socialist country.

Sweden has private property ownership, private investment and disparity of incomes. Not exactly hallmarks of a socialist country.

An extensive social welfare system does not make a country socialist.

 

[Nursedan]

Sweden has private property ownership, private investment and disparity of incomes. Not exactly hallmarks of a socialist country.

An extensive social welfare system does not make a country socialist.

Way to cherry pick a socialist country that is dysfunctional. We might as well use Somalia as an example that capitalism doesn't work.

Perhaps Sweden and South Korea would be better contrasts.

I feel like we're not on the same page.

It's a complicated subject since most economies are mixed, in that there are some elements of capitalism and some aspects of other economic models, Or or vice-versa. Pure socialism, which is what Venezuela is close to, is setup to fail, largely due to human nature.

That last part is key btw.

 

[Travis]

Is it just me, or are many people confusing "socialism" with "communism"?



Alex.

Keep in mind that in the USA we are taught that socialism is communism, communism is socialism and it all leads to Stalin and Gulags. I had a high school history text book that labeled the section on the dissolution of the Iron Curtain as "The Fall of Socialism."

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Here's the thing...Factory workers are paid by the hour. So what you're describing, where A and B make the same paycheck while making a different number of thingamajigs? That's the way things are now.

So...First, I think we can safely say that your conclusion has not come to pass, and is likely flawed.

Second, this is an indictment of socialism exactly how?

Exactly what I was trying to say, but said much more clearly.

 

[The Painter]

Here's the thing...Factory workers are paid by the hour. So what you're describing, where A and B make the same paycheck while making a different number of thingamajigs? That's the way things are now.

So...First, I think we can safely say that your conclusion has not come to pass, and is likely flawed.

Second, this is an indictment of socialism exactly how?

I guess you've never heard of piecemeal. Not everything is by the hour.

 

[Donal]

Not to mention bonuses, pay raises, promotions, and other performance incentives companies use for their employees.

 

[johnny karate]

Other threads to look forward to in this series include "What's wrong with "fascism", anyway?" and "What's wrong with "baby-eating", anyway?".

 

[uk_dave]

Factory worker A makes 50 Thingamajigs in a week.
Factory worker B works harder and makes 300 Thingamajigs in a week.
Factory workers A and B make the same paycheck.
Factory worker B sees no benefit for working harder and drops production down to 50 Thingamajigs in a week, like worker A.
Entire production drops. Soon there are not enough products for the population. Society crumbles.

How about Factory worker B is the boyfriend of the boss's daughter and is using the Thinga4000Ultima machine with turbo charged Whatsit, whereas Factory worker A is a union rep who is using the Thinga10Basic, which is much slower and keeps breaking down, and the Boss wants to use this as an excuse to sack him, but those damned socialist demagogues in City Hall have passed legislation preventing constructive dismissal....and......and... the daughter is pregnant and the boss's wife is having an affair with the Latvian pool boy.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Not to mention bonuses, pay raises, promotions, and other performance incentives companies use for their employees.

Exactly. The system as it exists today is set up to allow people to be rewarded if they provide more value. A communist (not socialist, communist) system specifically refutes this idea.

 

[AvalonXQ]

How about Factory worker B is the boyfriend of the boss's daughter and is using the Thinga4000Ultima machine with turbo charged Whatsit, whereas Factory worker A is a union rep who is using the Thinga10Basic, which is much slower and keeps breaking down,

In a communist country, no one would have ever bothered to create the Thinga4000Ultima in the first place. Who benefits?

 

[uk_dave]

Socialist, dear. SOCIALIST, not communist.

 

[Dancing David]

You put a ceiling on individual wealth.

You put a floor on individual poverty.

Most people have a to work a little harder, and get a little less.

But nobody has too little, and nobody has too much.

What's the problem?

Nightmare Mode: provide your own definition of "socialism", and answer the question on your own terms.

That is one model, you do not have to have income wealth restricitions, in some you can have progressive taxes or a standard tax.

The goals is not the elimination of poverty in some models but the reduction of the effects of poverty, so if is does not have to be that you have a dole. You can have safe housing, safe education, affordable health care and things like that. The goals being that you not have the crime, despiar and ill health taht poverty causes. (I never said it was realistic either.)

Now personally I do think that the standard models of socialism at work, as in many countries, are much less cut and dried then some would have.

 

[Dancing David]

Sweden has private property ownership, private investment and disparity of incomes. Not exactly hallmarks of a socialist country.

An extensive social welfare system does not make a country socialist.

Stop making sense, making sense, making sense.

 

[DDWW]

College professors have a great opportunity to show how Socialism could work in their classroom. Run the semester under Socialism.

The Students are the workers. The products, or the production side, is homework, papers, exams, etc. The rewards or results of the production are the grades.

Put a ceiling on individual wealth.
Put a floor on individual poverty.

Set up a progressive tax.

All “A” students (the rich) will be taxed 2 grades.
All “B” students (the upper middle class) will be taxed 1 grade.
All “C” students (the working class) will not be taxed.
All “D” students (the lower class) will be subsidized 1 grade.
All “E” students (the poor) will be subsidized 2 grades.

Everyone gets a “C”.
No one has to little and no one has to much.
Everyone passes the class.

Utopia achieved!

DDW(one "w" taxed away)

 

[MikeMangum]

I've been to the Russian Fed, last year, actually. Capitalism isn't quite addressing all of their social issues either.

To be fair, Russia isn't really capitalist, it is mercantilist.

And since when was North Korea socialist? They are a dictatorship.

There's a difference between the two?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

College professors have a great opportunity to show how Socialism could work in their classroom. Run the semester under Socialism.

The Students are the workers. The products, or the production side, is homework, papers, exams, etc. The rewards or results of the production are the grades.

Put a ceiling on individual wealth.
Put a floor on individual poverty.

Set up a progressive tax.

All “A” students (the rich) will be taxed 2 grades.
All “B” students (the upper middle class) will be taxed 1 grade.
All “C” students (the working class) will not be taxed.
All “D” students (the lower class) will be subsidized 1 grade.
All “E” students (the poor) will be subsidized 2 grades.

Everyone gets a “C”.
No one has to little and no one has to much.
Everyone passes the class.

Utopia achieved!

DDW(one "w" taxed away)

You know that isn't how it would work right?

I mean, seriously, are you people really that ignorant of what you're scared of?

What am I saying, of course you are, now go and hide in the basement because those nasty commies in...somewhere are plotting your downfall.

 

[uk_dave]

There's a difference between the two?

Ummmmmm yes.

And while we're at it.....

Wanda: ......Now let me correct you on a couple of things, OK? Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of Buddhism is not "Every man for himself." And the London Underground is not a political movement. Those are all mistakes, Otto. I looked them up.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0095159/quotes

 

[DDWW]

You know that isn't how it would work right?

I mean, seriously, are you people really that ignorant of what you're scared of?

What am I saying, of course you are, now go and hide in the basement because those nasty commies in...somewhere are plotting your downfall.

If you cannot make an intellectual response…..resort to name calling!


Wow, I'm impressed...NOT.

DDWW