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Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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My "library" of false confessions is currently closed for a re-indexing of all the titles. But I can tell you without fear of contradiction that I could find you all sorts of examples where people who were subsequently proven totally innocent went, during the course of a police interrogation, from denying involvement to a full or partial confession.

Nice little slide step but, sorry, it won't work on this forum.

You need to provide an example of an innocent person going from one detailed story (making love, discussing lesbianism, watching Amelie, cutting some very bloody fish, cleaning each others ears, whatever) to another detailed story that's almost entirely different (in the kitchen, covering ears, hearing screams, accusing your boss, etc).

This is not a typical false confession and you know it. Amanda is not mentally impaired, nor was she physically coerced, nor did she even confess. The list of distinctions was already printed.

Again: The challenge is simple. From your vast library of false and/or coerced confessions, find just one that resembles what Amanda did. I'm not saying they don't exist. But just find one that's close so we can at the very least put to rest the idea that people don't just make up a brand new and completely different set of details when confronted as she certainly must have been.
 
On the whole issue of the connection between a propensity to burgle (or "burglarize" for our American friends) and propensity to rape:

The whole area of conditional probability consistently causes huge confusion in courtrooms among lawyers and juries alike, and most likely has had significant impacts on judicial outcomes. Take for example the argument: "Only x% (small percentage) of burglars or other non-violent property offenders go on to rape someone at a future time, so just because Mr A has been shown to be a burglar, he has only a statistical x% probability of being a rapist". This argument is in fact completely invalid, as it's based on the wrong application of probability theory.

The relevant statistic to know in this example would be this: given that someone is raped, what is the probability that her rapist has a prior history of burglary or similar non-violent offences? This is a totally different statistic, and is calculated using Bayesian theories of conditional probability. It might well be that the correct conditional probability in this case could be very high (viz the 80%-ish stat from above).

A very high-profile casualty of this failure to understand conditional probability was the OJ Simpson case. I can't recall the exact probabilities used in the trial, but what happened went like this: Simpson had previously pleaded guilty (well, nolo contendere, technically) to physical abuse & battery against his wife - the subsequent murder victim Nicole Brown Simpson. Simpson's defence attorney warned the jury not to be be swayed to believe that, since OJ had previously beaten his wife, he was more likely to be her murderer. His defence counsel (Johnny Cochrane, if I remember correctly), told the jury something like this: "Over 1,000,000 men have been convicted in the USA over the past 10 years of spousal abuse. Of these 1,000,000, only around 400 have gone on to subsequently be convicted of murdering their spouse. That equates to just 0.04%! So just because my client hit his wife (which he's ashamed of etc etc), you CANNOT go from that crime to a belief that he killed her - the statistics simply would not support such a position".

Many jury members post-trial stated that they were impressed by the compelling logic of this argument, and that it was one of the more significant things that helped them decide to acquit. But the logic was TOTALLY wrong - and the prosecution not only neither picked up on it nor corrected it, but actively REINFORCED it with statements such as "a slap is a prelude to homicide".

The question that the jurors SHOULD have been assessing was this: What are the statistical chances that a man murdered his partner or ex-partner, given that a) she'd been murdered by SOMEONE, and b) the man had previously been convicted of abusing her? The statistics showed a radically different probability to that implied by OJ's defence team (and, inexplicably, also by the prosecution) - and one that heavily implicated OJ.

The correct conditional analysis, broken down into smaller steps, goes like this: First, we need an additional statistic: how many women in the USA in a comparable demographic bracket were killed by all different sorts of perpetrators in those previous ten years? The answer- if one excludes known prostitutes that were killed by their pimps or johns and women in the drugs trade that were killed by their dealer or customer - is around 55,000. That's for all of the USA, where there were on average 120,000,000 women in the population over this period.

Now we take that statistic and apply it to our sample group of 1,000,000 battered women. Scaling down ((1 million / 120 million) x 55,000), we might statistically expect around 458 women from our sample group to be murdered in total over the ten year period.

So, now we have a statistical total number of women in our sample group who were killed (458). But we also know that 400 men were convicted of murdering their partner/ex-partner within this group. By extension, 400 of these women were killed by a partner/ex-partner with a prior conviction for physical abuse against them. So, the answer to the crucial question is this:

If a woman in the US was murdered, and her partner (or ex-partner) had previously been convicted of her battery, there's a statistical 87% chance (400/458) that her partner/ex-partner was the perpetrator.

This 87% (or a very similar percentage) was the probability that actually should have been placed before the jury in their deliberation of OJ's guilt. Had the prosecutors known anything about correct application of conditional probability, things might possibly have turned out different - in spite of all the other strange and unique things about this trial.

PS the actual numbers that I've used here are purely from recollection. I don't claim that they are strictly accurate, but I am certain that they are very close to representing the true probabilities.
 
Furthermore, in the absence of any recorded evidence, those police that were in the interview room (were there not five or six at one point?) would be sure that only they, the interpreter, and AK could ever testify as to what actually went on. And after AK is discounted, then the police would only need to ensure that all the relevant officers were "onside" (potentially relatively easy, as shown by past historical examples), and that the interpreter would also not contradict their version of events (more difficult and therefore less likely, but the interpreter was retained and paid by the police for her services, and was a citizen of Perugia).

And yet Amanda, when allowed to, did not identify the chestnut-haired woman. She didn't identify one single police officer who allegedly assaulted her during her interviews.

For your scenario to work, Amanda herself must have been paid off by the Perugia police in return for her silence.

In all regards, AK was treated much better than any of the other suspects. I don't recall any of the others relating various trips to the cafeteria and the snack machine. She's a veritable eating machine if you follow her various writings. They must have had someone there just to run out for more food every time she got hungry.
 
That's the thing with these studies, they're as common sand. You'll always find one to support your convenience. Statistics will prove anything you want if your criteria is lax...as is the case in your example.

Funny, then, that you haven't found even one to support your own claim, even though you stated it as fact...
 
I would imagine it's a pretty hard line of reasoning for Raffaele to follow. The police point out some "inconsistencies" (although none of us knows what they were) that lead Raffaele to say, well, actually, maybe Amanda wasn't home all night after all. Then they use Raffaele's statement to undermine Amanda's confidence in her memory, and get her to say she must have been at the scene of the crime, and, well, yeah, she guesses Patrick was there, too.

Then they go back to Raffaele and say, guess what, bud, it turns out you must also have been there -- even though according to your statement AND Amanda's, she wasn't with you when she committed the murder! Makes sense, no?

About the 'inconsistencies', Mary, I wouldn't mind betting it was all centred around the fact Amanda was supposed to work that night, both she and Raffaele claiming they stayed in the flat all evening, and the police then discovering her message to Patrick and misinterpreting it to mean she planned a meeting with him that night.

At one point in his diary/letters, Raffaele writes "I remember that was Thursday, therefore Amanda had to go to the pub where she usually works, but I don't remember how much time she was absent and remember that subsequently she had said to me that the pub was closed (I have strong doubts regarding the fact that she was absent)". His reasoning as to why he believed that Amanda left the flat is that it "was Thursday, and therefore Amanda had to go to the pub" - he's basing it on a logical thought process, not on his memories of her leaving. This is something the police no doubt grilled him about, asking him why, since he agreed that Amanda had to work that night, he was claiming she never left - and then once they'd discovered Patrick's text, they would have told him they had *proof* that Amanda left, so why was he lying for her?

You can see the police's thought processes here: (1) they have a couple who say they spent all night at home; (2) but one of the pair was supposed to work; (3) they have a text message which (they wrongly believe) proves she left the flat to meet her boss. With these 'contradictions', they probably thought they'd hit the jackpot, doubly so given the possibility that at this stage they may have had some evidence a black man was involved in the murder. So they got Raffaele to admit that in the face of the 'contradictions' they presented him with, Amanda may have left after all, and then took that back to Amanda, telling her that her boyfriend now said she'd left the flat. And the rest of it probably unfolded from there.
 
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PS the actual numbers that I've used here are purely from recollection. I don't claim that they are strictly accurate, but I am certain that they are very close to representing the true probabilities.

In our case it would be probably better to learn about the percentage of bullying incidents that include a sexual assault component.
 
Nice little slide step but, sorry, it won't work on this forum.

You need to provide an example of an innocent person going from one detailed story (making love, discussing lesbianism, watching Amelie, cutting some very bloody fish, cleaning each others ears, whatever) to another detailed story that's almost entirely different (in the kitchen, covering ears, hearing screams, accusing your boss, etc).

This is not a typical false confession and you know it. Amanda is not mentally impaired, nor was she physically coerced, nor did she even confess. The list of distinctions was already printed.

Again: The challenge is simple. From your vast library of false and/or coerced confessions, find just one that resembles what Amanda did. I'm not saying they don't exist. But just find one that's close so we can at the very least put to rest the idea that people don't just make up a brand new and completely different set of details when confronted as she certainly must have been.

You seem to be accusing me of willful deception ("slide step", "...and you know it"). This is out of order, and against forum rules.

I'm arguing from a position of personal conviction. I'm not out to deceive or mislead. I might be wrong, and you have every right to tell me I'm wrong. But you have absolutely no right to essentially call me a liar or a deliberate misinformant. And you'll stop making such baseless accusations against my character immediately, please.

Very many false confessions are preceded by a period of protestation of innocence. And very many false confessions are made by adults with no evidence of mental retardation. Here are two:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Mark_Deskovic

https://www.law.northwestern.edu/wrongfulconvictions/exonerations/ilGaugerSummary.html

I suggest that you read up on these cases carefully, think about what you wrote previously, then come back to me with a reply.
 
You can see the police's thought processes here: (1) they have a couple who say they spent all night at home; (2) but one of the pair was supposed to work; (3) they have a text message which (they wrongly believe) proves she left the flat to meet her boss.

You omit the most probable part of their thought process:

  1. Supply the inconsistencies in their alibis to each Raffaele and Amanda.
  2. Tell the other one once one of them refuses to back up the other's alibi.
  3. Wait for the inevitable counter-accusation.
  4. Bingo. Two compliant suspects.
The police can legally do all this in Italy while they're still witnesses. The problem is that Amanda screwed up #3 for them and instead named her boss as the murderer and said she was there in the cottage at the time.

All the speculation about Patrick presumes that the police interviewers wanted and expected Amanda to name him so they could go roust him out of bed in the wee hours. And this was a part of an elaborate scheme to make Amanda look bad and to ruin Patrick's reputation and his business. Whereupon they just let him go and dropped the charges.

It's quite a stretch of the imagination and it requires the Perugia authorities to be both fiendishly clever and unbelievably stupid at the same time.
 
In our case it would be probably better to learn about the percentage of bullying incidents that include a sexual assault component.

Yes, I'm not claiming that the statistics in the OJ case were relevant here - it was merely a high-profile (and, I think, interesting) example of how conditional probability can be both badly misunderstood and incorrectly applied.
 
And yet Amanda, when allowed to, did not identify the chestnut-haired woman. She didn't identify one single police officer who allegedly assaulted her during her interviews.

For your scenario to work, Amanda herself must have been paid off by the Perugia police in return for her silence.

In all regards, AK was treated much better than any of the other suspects. I don't recall any of the others relating various trips to the cafeteria and the snack machine. She's a veritable eating machine if you follow her various writings. They must have had someone there just to run out for more food every time she got hungry.

She probably didn't "name" the police officer because Italian law requires you "name" someone under their defamation law--which is why I don't think she's too worried about her upcoming slander suit.
 
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You omit the most probable part of their thought process:

  1. Supply the inconsistencies in their alibis to each Raffaele and Amanda.
  2. Tell the other one once one of them refuses to back up the other's alibi.
  3. Wait for the inevitable counter-accusation.
  4. Bingo. Two compliant suspects.
The police can legally do all this in Italy while they're still witnesses. The problem is that Amanda screwed up #3 for them and instead named her boss as the murderer and said she was there in the cottage at the time.

All the speculation about Patrick presumes that the police interviewers wanted and expected Amanda to name him so they could go roust him out of bed in the wee hours. And this was a part of an elaborate scheme to make Amanda look bad and to ruin Patrick's reputation and his business. Whereupon they just let him go and dropped the charges.

It's quite a stretch of the imagination and it requires the Perugia authorities to be both fiendishly clever and unbelievably stupid at the same time.

Are you suggesting that the police DIDN'T jump to the conclusion that Patrick was heavily involved in the murder shortly after discovering that a) he was the recipient of the text message, and that b) the content of the text message led them to believe that AK and Patrick had met up that night? In other words, are you suggesting that the police had no suspicions of Lumumba until the moment that AK named him in her "confession"?
 
On the whole issue of the connection between a propensity to burgle (or "burglarize" for our American friends) and propensity to rape:

The whole area of conditional probability consistently causes huge confusion in courtrooms among lawyers and juries alike, and most likely has had significant impacts on judicial outcomes. Take for example the argument: "Only x% (small percentage) of burglars or other non-violent property offenders go on to rape someone at a future time, so just because Mr A has been shown to be a burglar, he has only a statistical x% probability of being a rapist". This argument is in fact completely invalid, as it's based on the wrong application of probability theory.

The relevant statistic to know in this example would be this: given that someone is raped, what is the probability that her rapist has a prior history of burglary or similar non-violent offences? This is a totally different statistic, and is calculated using Bayesian theories of conditional probability. It might well be that the correct conditional probability in this case could be very high (viz the 80%-ish stat from above).

Thanks for that clear explanation, LondonJohn. I was struggling with working out conditional probability during a discussion of the bra clasp evidence a while back, and trying to figure out what was wrong with the claims that the chances of the clasp coming into contact with a particular portion of the towel (for example) that contained Raffaele's DNA were tiny. I couldn't articulate it very well, but I think the problem with that calculation was that we needed to start with the *fact* of the DNA on the clasp, rather than the chances of it being there from a particular source. i.e. 'given that the DNA is there, what are the chances...' Similarly here, 'given that a murder took place, what are the chances...' etc. I'm definitely inspired to go and research conditional probability. Now there's something I never thought I'd say. :D

Belated welcome to JREF, btw - I enjoyed your posts over at PMF, glad you made the transition over here.
 
Nice little slide step but, sorry, it won't work on this forum.

You need to provide an example of an innocent person going from one detailed story (making love, discussing lesbianism, watching Amelie, cutting some very bloody fish, cleaning each others ears, whatever) to another detailed story that's almost entirely different (in the kitchen, covering ears, hearing screams, accusing your boss, etc).

This is not a typical false confession and you know it. Amanda is not mentally impaired, nor was she physically coerced, nor did she even confess. The list of distinctions was already printed.

Again: The challenge is simple. From your vast library of false and/or coerced confessions, find just one that resembles what Amanda did. I'm not saying they don't exist. But just find one that's close so we can at the very least put to rest the idea that people don't just make up a brand new and completely different set of details when confronted as she certainly must have been.

And, by the way, I don't believe that I "need" to provide a prior case that's exactly analagous to this case in order to give my opinion some validity.

I've already claimed that there are some elements present here that are also present in many other "false confession" cases, namely: removal of elements of alibi testimony from a former supporter (lover, in this case); coercion (you say none happened, I argue some happened); possible physical abuse (you say none happened, I argue some might conceivably have happened); suggestion of scenario (you say none happened; I argue it might have happened); accusations against others who were subsequently found to be innocent; subsequent recanting of confession. And, by the way, AK DID confess (in the sense that she incriminated herself) - she placed herself at the crime scene and as an architect of some or all of the plan to attack Meredith, as well as making herself an accessory to murder at the very least.

There are some elements here that differ from many "false confession" cases - notably mental impairment. But each proven "false confession" case has a very different set of underlying circumstances, so trying to make detailed comparisons of this sort is both difficult and not instructive. There is no "typical" false confession. The ONLY consistent factor linking together all previous cases of false confessions is that people - for various reasons - confessed to crimes they didn't commit (and sometimes also falsely implicated others).
 
You seem to be accusing me of willful deception ("slide step", "...and you know it"). This is out of order, and against forum rules.

I'm arguing from a position of personal conviction. I'm not out to deceive or mislead. I might be wrong, and you have every right to tell me I'm wrong. But you have absolutely no right to essentially call me a liar or a deliberate misinformant. And you'll stop making such baseless accusations against my character immediately, please.

Very many false confessions are preceded by a period of protestation of innocence. And very many false confessions are made by adults with no evidence of mental retardation. Here are two:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Mark_Deskovic

https://www.law.northwestern.edu/wrongfulconvictions/exonerations/ilGaugerSummary.html

I suggest that you read up on these cases carefully, think about what you wrote previously, then come back to me with a reply.

Not nearly enough information on the first one. But the second one is almost identical to a long list of false confessions that have been produced before you signed up to the JREF.

Let's look at the differences:

Gauger confessed to committing the crime. Knox did not confess to committing the crime. She told the police that her boss did it. Gauger did not have a detailed alibi in place; he was an alcoholic. Knox had a detailed alibi. Gauger did not create an entirely different story to explain the murder. Knox did.

That's what you're supposed to be looking for.
 
Are you suggesting that the police DIDN'T jump to the conclusion that Patrick was heavily involved in the murder shortly after discovering that a) he was the recipient of the text message, and that b) the content of the text message led them to believe that AK and Patrick had met up that night? In other words, are you suggesting that the police had no suspicions of Lumumba until the moment that AK named him in her "confession"?

There is no evidence they had the slightest interest in Patrick until Amanda told them she witnessed him raping and murdering her roommate.
 
That didn't all happen 'later', they had all that against them from the night of the 5th (and the stuff regarding Patrick's phone and his lack of alibi they had by the time they appeared in court on the 8/9th.

The police didn't announce all three committed rape and murder, they announced they had those responsible for it in custody. There's a difference.

They said quite a bit more than that:

"[Chief of Police] Mr De Felice said that the three had “tried to overpower her sexually” but Miss Kercher had resisted. He added that the student had been “morally upright”, and that no traces of drugs had been found in her blood.

"Giuliano Amato, the Italian interior minister, told a news conference: “It’s an ugly story in which people which this girl had in her home, friends, tried to force her into relations which she didn’t want.”


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2816366.ece

This was on the 6th of November.
 
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Thanks, q. Can I call you q? :p

Now if HumanityBlues would do me the favor of a reply...

Me and a roommate were once questioned by the FBI, they kept us separate and when I was asked if I had ever seen the gun before I said "yes it was a 38 Beretta".

Since it was the truth it was the right answer.
 
The ONLY consistent factor linking together all previous cases of false confessions is that people - for various reasons - confessed to crimes they didn't commit (and sometimes also falsely implicated others).

Bingo! You have it right there. LJ, congratulations!

That's what you need to provide. Get us an example of a coerced statement in which an innocent person made up a completely different story that involved someone else committing the act of murder.

You're so close!
 
Not nearly enough information on the first one. But the second one is almost identical to a long list of false confessions that have been produced before you signed up to the JREF.

Let's look at the differences:

Gauger confessed to committing the crime. Knox did not confess to committing the crime. She told the police that her boss did it. Gauger did not have a detailed alibi in place; he was an alcoholic. Knox had a detailed alibi. Gauger did not create an entirely different story to explain the murder. Knox did.

That's what you're supposed to be looking for.

Ah ok, thanks for the tutorial. I defer to your greater logic and wisdom.
 
Nobody is arguing that it is unknown for burglars to rape and/or murder their victims. Your post is completely missing the actual point that was being made and that is: There is no difference between a burglar laying eyes on a victim and deciding to rape them, then there is in Massei's scenario of seeing Amanda and Raffaele getting it on, then seeing Meredith and deciding to attack her. The only real difference, is that Massei adds the extra sexual stimuli of Rudy seeing Amanda and Raffaele getting off with each other.

Rudy did not rape Meredith for sexual reasons; it is absurd and backward of the judges even to think of such a thing. The sexual assault was a knee-jerk reaction to the opportunity that presented itself after Meredith was disabled. The evidence is he digitally raped her; he may not even have left semen at the scene ("semen at the scene" -- sounds like the name of a rock band ;)).

It should also be pointed out here, that in the cases of burglars who rape their victims there is nearly always a history in their records of sexual attacks and/or sexually deviant behaviour and/or violence. All of these factors are absent from Rudy's record. They also tend to be dominant and aggressive in nature. Rudy is not...he's submissive, a follower, a pleaser.

Which would explain why he was not able to take full advantage of the opportunity. There's a first time for everything. Rudy was compiling a generous record of incidents of breaking and entering -- something that also was not on his record -- prior to the murder. It is clear he was in a pattern that was escalating.
 
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