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Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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I don't think it was a "gotcha" like "oooh, I got you good". More of a "gotcha" with an eyeroll like "riiiiiiight...if you say so..."

Oh...OK. But in combination with the tone and meaning of the sentence above it, I took it to mean something more along the lines of "I've caught you in a logical trap". I was also unfamiliar up to now with the meaning of "gotcha" that you propose. But there you go. Maybe stilicho will tell me himself what he meant by it. But I have other things to lose sleep over at the moment.....
 
Let's say that the next 20 minutes are spent "cross-examining" AK on the testimony she's just given - clarifying and fixing her version of events. It's during this period that AK's asked for her phone, and asked to clarify the text to Lumumba.

Now we're 50 minutes in. It's now that the police drop the bombshell: RS is no longer supporting her alibi. They also tell her that they think she's lying about the text message, and that they regard it as proof that she planned to meet Lumumba that night. The police leave the room for 5 minutes to let AK stew in that knowledge, to build tension, and to decide on the strategy for the following period of interrogation.

As the police re-enter the room, we are now 20 minutes away from the "confession".

That's almost exactly the scenario that we'd figured out about a month and a half ago on this very thread. We thought it might have been 15 minutes and you suggest 20 minutes. Not really a lot of distinction there so what is your point?

Let's see on what points we agree:

  • The police likely told Amanda at some point that she was lying.
  • It probably took less than a half-hour to change her story from being at Raffaele's, cooking bloody fish or whatever, to an accusation of murder against her employer.
  • The police must have told AK that RS no longer supported her alibi while she was in the interrogation room.
I can certainly understand how the situation would have been far more stressful to AK than had been any of the previous interviews. She'd even elaborated on the details of her story in the famous alibi email of 04 NOV 2007. The only differences this time are the three points on which I think we agree. The police hadn't told her she was lying, previously, and hadn't told her that RS no longer supported her alibi.

She went straight from her previously elaborate story that included RS to an entirely new one in which she witnessed Patrick murdering her roommate. All without anything more than a couple of simple statements from the police.
 
There was no agreement. Meredith was sexually assaulted and then murdered.

Have you ever considered thinking about these questions in depth? The fact that you refuse to look at them in any detail raises suspicions about what you are capable of intellectually.
 
<snip>

Regardless of references to sexuality and sexual acts, sexism is a cultural bias. It is alive and well in most civilizations around the world, including the United States. However, cultural awareness and state's equal rights amendments will ensure that here you will not hear a lawyer argue what Lumumba's lawyer, Carlo Pacelli argued about Amanda:

<snip>


I think you are innocent concerning the latitude of behavior granted lawyers in American courts, or maybe willfully ignorant.

Do you know why rape victims are reluctant to confront their attackers in court? It isn't just the perps they're afraid of, and with reason. The perp's lawyer can be much more threatening in a courtroom and much more destructive. Prosecutors are under no more restriction. Statements made by counsel in a courtroom are provided a much greater degree of immunity than they are outside of it. Equal rights has nothing to do with it, and cultural preconceptions could be more of an aid to character attacks here than in Europe. We are a very uptight culture by comparison.

I have read and seen several pundits with legal expertise argue that Amanda would not have been arrested in the United States. Do you know more than they do?
FOA sanctioned pundits? Do you doubt that others can be found to say the opposite?

It is possible, perhaps even likely that any of us here know more than "pundits" do. I've read several interesting discussions of the topic where reviews of pundit accuracy has shown them to be wrong with greater dependability than they are right. Certainly my own personal experience has been that the more I educate myself on any given subject the more often I catch errors in the pontifications of pundits. Lots of them. That's why I loathe and avoid shows like the Grace creature's. Their pundits have difficulty being right at all.

Just like psychics their records are rarely subject to scrutiny. Their purpose isn't to be right. It is to affirm ... or incite ... at the behest of whoever hired their services.

The pundits unleashed by Knox partisans upon the American media were the very cause of my increased interest in the case. So much of what was said was such patent bull-hockey that I decided to look further into the subject on my own.
 
Spin away. he never said Amanda 'may' have left him, he said she 'did' leave him...from 9 pm to 1 am. I fail to see the 'may'.

So you agree the police had no reason to arrest Raffaele, since he was not with Amanda when she allegedly committed the crime.
 
I'm not going to point by point debate the scenario as it would be, somewhat, pointless as we don't really know what happened.

We do know that after a max of 1:45 of "intense" interrogation, using such techniques as "Remember! Remember who wrote you this text! Why don't you remember? You said you were going to meet someone later, Who? And why is this the first we've heard of it? You said you were with Raffaele all night. Who did you send this text to? Remember!"

I mean, I know that sounds awfully brutal and all, but I just can't see how that would lead Amanda to make a false accusation.


ETA: Really, there's quite a big difference between the responses:

"I don't remember. It might have been Patrick. He told me I didn't have to work that night, so I was just telling him that I would see him later. I didn't mean 'see you later tonight'".

and

"I don't remember. I don't remember. It's him! It's Patrick! He's a bad man" (*not verbatim, but close enough to what she, herself, in her testimony, stated she said).


The prior would not result in the incarceration of an innocent man for 2 weeks. Nor would it have placed Amanda at the scene, as her continued "dream sequence" does. I see no evidence of a coerced confession/accusation here, rather it appears more like Amanda had run out of options and so she attempted to turn the heat off of her and Raffaele, and toward the easiest (at the time) target, Patrick.

To pick up on one point: why do you think that the questioning revolved around who the text had been sent to? The phone was in front of them, and it had the text message and the cellphone number of the recipient on it. Did AK forget (or pretend to forget) who that text message had been sent to? And might Lumumba's number not be stored in her phone address book under his name - making it easy for her or the police to link the number to the name in the event of any "forgetfulness"?

The issue of when Lumumba's name actually came up seems important here. If, as you suggest, the police were still trying to ascertain the identity of the message recipient when AK did her "blurting", then I'd agree that for her to name Lumumba would be odd and fairly incriminating.

However, if it had been established earlier in the interrogation that Lumumba was the recipient (as I currently believe, although if there's firm evidence to the contrary I'm happy to re-think), then it makes more sense that the police formed the logical progression that 1) AK planned to (and in fact DID) meet the recipient of that text message; 2) Lumumba was the recipient of the text; 3) AK and Lumumba met up that night; 4) since AK vehemently denies meeting Lumumba, we can infer that either the purpose of the meeting or the outcome of the meeting were not innocent, and were therefore things that AK wants to hide from us; 5) AK and Lumumba were involved in the murder of Meredith Kercher.

And if the police did follow this chain of thought, it's perfectly feasible that the last section of the interrogation (the last 20 minutes in my fantasy account) homed in strongly on the Lumumba angle.

Also, when you contend that AK's confession was designed to take the heat of her and RS, as well as to stop the police "hassle", why on earth wouldn't she say something like this: "OK, OK, I DID meet Patrick, at the basketball court, as you allege. But we just talked for a few minutes, then he said he was going to visit Meredith, who he fancied. I wondered round the town for a while, and smoked a few spliffs, but I didn't go to the cottage with Patrick". In that way, AK would have subtly redirected the police towards Lumumba (subtly because she wouldn't have actually had to implicate him directly with this explanation), and she would have totally removed herself from the crime scene.

And it's here that a "catch-22"-style problem emerges. If AK was not feeling under pressure, and was therefore capable of thinking relatively clearly, WHY would she place herself right at the heart of the crime scene, as well as implicate an innocent man? If the police were only asking her about the text message, surely AK would have been wily enough to explain that away nebulously ("Oh maybe I did meet him, maybe at the basketball court, but I was stoned. However I'm certain that I didn't go back to the cottage, much less witness or participate in a bloody murder"). It makes no sense.

Or rather, it only makes sense if one contends that AK just totally broke down at this point and gave in to what she'd done. But here's another catch-22: If AK did make the confession because she just couldn't handle the pressure/lies/deception any more, then why did she make a bogus confession that implicated an innocent man? People who "crack" under questioning tend to spill out the whole, unadulterated truth. They don't invent a whole new version of events that's subsequently provably false.
 
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That's almost exactly the scenario that we'd figured out about a month and a half ago on this very thread. We thought it might have been 15 minutes and you suggest 20 minutes. Not really a lot of distinction there so what is your point?

Let's see on what points we agree:

  • The police likely told Amanda at some point that she was lying.
  • It probably took less than a half-hour to change her story from being at Raffaele's, cooking bloody fish or whatever, to an accusation of murder against her employer.
  • The police must have told AK that RS no longer supported her alibi while she was in the interrogation room.
I can certainly understand how the situation would have been far more stressful to AK than had been any of the previous interviews. She'd even elaborated on the details of her story in the famous alibi email of 04 NOV 2007. The only differences this time are the three points on which I think we agree. The police hadn't told her she was lying, previously, and hadn't told her that RS no longer supported her alibi.

She went straight from her previously elaborate story that included RS to an entirely new one in which she witnessed Patrick murdering her roommate. All without anything more than a couple of simple statements from the police.

The problem here is your use of the phrase "All without anything more than a couple of simple statements from the police". That phrase would imply that the police turned to AK at some point midway through the interrogation and said something like: "Amanda, there are two things that you need to know: firstly, Raffaele now tells us you weren't at his apartment all evening; and secondly, we think you're lying about your whereabouts on the murder night and about a plan to meet Patrick. What do you have to say about that?". And nothing else.

Those two "simple statements" took around 30 seconds. If AK did indeed crumble after just such statements, and sobbingly confessed to meeting Lumumba, going to the house, hearing Lumumba kill Meredith, and covering her ears to block out the screams, then I'd agree that she has a lot of explaining to do.

But what if these two "simple statements" were merely a starting off point for a continuing interrogation (during, for example, the further 14m30sec or 19m30sec at our disposal in either fictional scenario). What if there was an escalation of accusations, suggestions, promises and intimidation? What if it was this that actually caused AK to break down?

PS just for the record - once again - I'm not a cheerleader for AK (or any of the others). I just can't intellectually reconcile AK's actions on the night of the 5/6 Nov with any explanation other than that her "confession" and naming of Lumumba were heavily coerced. To me, every other explanation falls into one or other logical traps.
 
Oh and by the way I wasn't here a month and a half ago. I'm sorry if I'm re-hashing things that have been discussed before. I had no idea that they'd been debated at length in the past on here. I've tried to read back through the site, but I think you might agree that the only way of getting a full flavour of previous discussions is to have kept up with them at the time.

I truly am a "newbie" to this whole case - not just to this forum. Please shut me up whenever I'm not adding anything new or interesting to the debate (I mean that sincerely).
 
If she's guilty, it's certainly going to hurt, of course. The innocent never needed to fear...Filomena, Laura, the boys downstairs, the friends of Meredith, Patrick...they were absolved. The system works.

I would think there was a bit of fear in Patrick when he was first arrested. Patrick was absolved after he had been arrested (and, I would assume, while being represented by an attorney).
 
So you agree the police had no reason to arrest Raffaele, since he was not with Amanda when she allegedly committed the crime.

They had every reason. And this we know because it was confirmed and formalised by a court judge (so if you need to blame anyone, it should be Judge Matteini, not the police).

It seems to me you want it both ways. You want to say that the police were out of line for not making Amanda and Raffaele suspects as soon as they became 'suspicious' of them...yet you claim they were wrong when they finally did. They can't do right for doing wrong. What was the 'right' thing for the police to do then? Should they have made them suspects and arrested them, or should they not?
 
I would think there was a bit of fear in Patrick when he was first arrested. Patrick was absolved after he had been arrested (and, I would assume, while being represented by an attorney).

Of course he feared. But only in the short term, he never needed to in the long run...which he now knows in hindsight. Police will often arrest people only to release them later without charge, this happens the world over. The fact he was swiftly eliminated shows the system works.
 
What details am I missing?

This was the original question:

So, what do we (and what did the police) have? During her interrogation, Amanda said Patrick took Meredith in the bedroom, but that she didn't witness what happened in there. The pathologist said Meredith had sex, but he couldn't say for sure she had been raped.

Based exclusively on those two pieces of information the prosecution, the chief of police and the interior minister (?) hold a press conference characterizing the murder as involving three attackers with a sexual motive.

How, pray tell, did they come to their conclusion?
 
They had every reason. And this we know because it was confirmed and formalised by a court judge (so if you need to blame anyone, it should be Judge Matteini, not the police).

It seems to me you want it both ways. You want to say that the police were out of line for not making Amanda and Raffaele suspects as soon as they became 'suspicious' of them...yet you claim they were wrong when they finally did. They can't do right for doing wrong. What was the 'right' thing for the police to do then? Should they have made them suspects and arrested them, or should they not?

I have not argued that the police should have made Amanda and Raffaele suspects as soon as they became suspicious of them. I believe the police did make them suspects soon after they became suspicious of them. My questions have been about what it was that made the police suspicious in the first place. I don't believe they had any reason to be suspicious of them, except that they were getting desperate for some results.

According to Claudia Matteini (and I have blamed her plenty of times), the primary evidence they had against Raffaele was that he wanted extreme experiences -- something they took off his myspace page.
 
This was the original question:

So, what do we (and what did the police) have? During her interrogation, Amanda said Patrick took Meredith in the bedroom, but that she didn't witness what happened in there. The pathologist said Meredith had sex, but he couldn't say for sure she had been raped.

Based exclusively on those two pieces of information the prosecution, the chief of police and the interior minister (?) hold a press conference characterizing the murder as involving three attackers with a sexual motive.

How, pray tell, did they come to their conclusion?

The police had what they presented to Judge Claudia Matteini in court on the 9th. Therefore, if you what to know 'what' they had, perhaps you should be referring to her report. Just a thought.
 
I have not argued that the police should have made Amanda and Raffaele suspects as soon as they became suspicious of them. I believe the police did make them suspects soon after they became suspicious of them. My questions have been about what it was that made the police suspicious in the first place. I don't believe they had any reason to be suspicious of them, except that they were getting desperate for some results.

According to Claudia Matteini (and I have blamed her plenty of times), the primary evidence they had against Raffaele was that he wanted extreme experiences -- something they took off his myspace page.

Really...you were not arguing some pages ago that because in your view, as the police regarded them as suspects they should have made them suspects and granted them all the legal privileges of that status....you never argued that? Someone's telling porky pies.

But I'm glad you've finally confirmed on record that when Amanda and Raffaele were brought in on the night of the 5th it should have been as witnesses rather then suspects which was indeed the case. Thanks.

As for Matteini, I suggest you actually read her report.
 
Really...you were not arguing some pages ago that because in your view, as the police regarded them as suspects they should have made them suspects and granted them all the legal privileges of that status....you never argued that? Someone's telling porky pies.

But I'm glad you've finally confirmed on record that when Amanda and Raffaele were brought in on the night of the 5th it should have been as witnesses rather then suspects which was indeed the case. Thanks.

As for Matteini, I suggest you actually read her report.

I don't think I have said anything on this thread about what legal privileges Amanda and Raffaele should have had.

I see that in both your posts, though, you have once again decided to sidestep the issues. To take the authorities' actions at face value strikes me as the antithesis of skepticism.

People ask you questions and you refuse to answer them. What is the point of trying to have a dialog with you?
 
I don't think I have said anything on this thread about what legal privileges Amanda and Raffaele should have had.

I see that in both your posts, though, you have once again decided to sidestep the issues. To take the authorities' actions at face value strikes me as the antithesis of skepticism.

People ask you questions and you refuse to answer them. What is the point of trying to have a dialog with you?

Mary, we don't have the amnesia Amanda and Raffaele claim to have had, neither do you.

You've yet to ask me any straight specific questions Mary, only instead very general questions. And the exceptions to those are questions that have been asked and answered a hundred times already. You may enjoy repeating yourself and spending your time trying to make others do so, but I don't. I ask my questions, get my answers and remember them the first time.
 
To pick up on one point: why do you think that the questioning revolved around who the text had been sent to? The phone was in front of them, and it had the text message and the cellphone number of the recipient on it. Did AK forget (or pretend to forget) who that text message had been sent to? And might Lumumba's number not be stored in her phone address book under his name - making it easy for her or the police to link the number to the name in the event of any "forgetfulness"?

The issue of when Lumumba's name actually came up seems important here. If, as you suggest, the police were still trying to ascertain the identity of the message recipient when AK did her "blurting", then I'd agree that for her to name Lumumba would be odd and fairly incriminating.

However, if it had been established earlier in the interrogation that Lumumba was the recipient (as I currently believe, although if there's firm evidence to the contrary I'm happy to re-think), then it makes more sense that the police formed the logical progression that 1) AK planned to (and in fact DID) meet the recipient of that text message; 2) Lumumba was the recipient of the text; 3) AK and Lumumba met up that night; 4) since AK vehemently denies meeting Lumumba, we can infer that either the purpose of the meeting or the outcome of the meeting were not innocent, and were therefore things that AK wants to hide from us; 5) AK and Lumumba were involved in the murder of Meredith Kercher.

And if the police did follow this chain of thought, it's perfectly feasible that the last section of the interrogation (the last 20 minutes in my fantasy account) homed in strongly on the Lumumba angle.

Also, when you contend that AK's confession was designed to take the heat of her and RS, as well as to stop the police "hassle", why on earth wouldn't she say something like this: "OK, OK, I DID meet Patrick, at the basketball court, as you allege. But we just talked for a few minutes, then he said he was going to visit Meredith, who he fancied. I wondered round the town for a while, and smoked a few spliffs, but I didn't go to the cottage with Patrick". In that way, AK would have subtly redirected the police towards Lumumba (subtly because she wouldn't have actually had to implicate him directly with this explanation), and she would have totally removed herself from the crime scene.

And it's here that a "catch-22"-style problem emerges. If AK was not feeling under pressure, and was therefore capable of thinking relatively clearly, WHY would she place herself right at the heart of the crime scene, as well as implicate an innocent man? If the police were only asking her about the text message, surely AK would have been wily enough to explain that away nebulously ("Oh maybe I did meet him, maybe at the basketball court, but I was stoned. However I'm certain that I didn't go back to the cottage, much less witness or participate in a bloody murder"). It makes no sense.

Or rather, it only makes sense if one contends that AK just totally broke down at this point and gave in to what she'd done. But here's another catch-22: If AK did make the confession because she just couldn't handle the pressure/lies/deception any more, then why did she make a bogus confession that implicated an innocent man? People who "crack" under questioning tend to spill out the whole, unadulterated truth. They don't invent a whole new version of events that's subsequently provably false.

If you haven't yet, I suggest you visit PMF and read Amanda's Testimony in the "In Their Own Words" section. What I have presented is nearly exactly what Amanda related happened.
 
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